Really, Really Old Trees Discovered

[MC]

Just to throw in a few jabs at Creationism:

Creationism isn't a science, so please don't pass it off as such. Creationism is entirely based on faith rather than actual scientific evidence, thus is considered pseudoscience.

 

[Zeonix]

Quick point about the "Holy Fire":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_fire

If you go through the list, you'll find there's something extremely similar in Japan that has been burning for 1200 years in a Buddhist temple, and a natural fire that has been burning for 6000 years in Australia. I don't see God's hand in any of the "eternal flames" on that page.

 

[final shine]

The holy fire of Helm's Deep has what to do with the Earth's age? Is the fire 6000 years old? Is the fire saying the Earth is 6000 years old? No? Then I don't get what your point is. I'm sure if I go over and pour some water on the flame, it'll go out. Is the flame awesome? I'm sure its the greatest thing in the world but it's just a flame.

u didnt get it.... it ultimatly proves God's existants,
and God seeig the time in a diferit manner, that explains a lot, so ur failing at convinceing me, and yea, creationists do belive that, and they are the ones taht took that literaly rather than logical, its logical that God sees time diferit since he sayd 6 days and to us apears as bulions...
and its obviously u didnt read from that link... read it and you will know that ur not the first that tried to extinguish it...

@final-shine: Show me a video of this miracle. The only source on that site is one russian website, and the one that the photos (probably photoshopped) were taken from. The other sources were from the site itself. You're not convincing me here. And how exactly do you know how God percieves time? Did you ask him?

go there. man those ar facts that apear every year, places that miracles happen and they still do, so u cant question some miracle that actualy happens,
God dos percive time sic he said 6 days, lol ...

edit :
"Quick point about the "Holy Fire":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_fire

If you go through the list, you'll find there's something extremely similar in Japan that has been burning for 1200 years in a Buddhist temple, and a natural fire that has been burning for 6000 years in Australia."

those are realy fabrications, theres no actual proof its been lighted yesturday...

 

[Zeonix]

I preempted you. Read my post. Look at the fact. Read about the Buddhist temple. Let it sink in. Everything you said after that seems irrational to me because I don't believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. So let's stay clear of that discussion and go back to the eternal flames of the world. None of those flames are the result of miracles.

 

[final shine]

I preempted you. Read my post. Look at the fact. Read about the Buddhist temple. Let it sink in. Everything you said after that seems irrational to me because I don't believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. So let's stay clear of that discussion and go back to the eternal flames of the world. None of those flames are the result of miracles.

, the holy fire is a miracle, thats the piont, it dosnt burn when toutched and it apears out of literaly nothing... i'm shure those "eternal flames" burn like hell...

 

[Zeonix]

Right. Read up on the eternal flame within the Buddhist monastery I mentioned.

 

[final shine]

i cant seem to finde it , post a qoute or a short of what it is ...
edit:
u mean this?:
At the Buddhist temple Daishō-in, at Mt. Misen, Itsukushima, where the flame has been burning since AD 806, for more than 1200 years[4]
, man that has been kept burning, and eather way its not similar, at all,
u didnt get the point, the holy fire isnt sustaind , it apears out of nowhere...
trie to read this : http://www.holyfire.org/eng/ ...>_>

 

[Zeonix]

http://nihonsankei.jp/eng/miyajima.html

Scroll down to Mt. Misen and read what little it says.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Fire#Criticism

I'm not even close to being convinced. If someone puts their hand within the flame for 10 minutes, and pulls their hand out of it without sustaining any injuries, I'll take a closer look. Until that happens, I'm not interested.

 

[Chakra-X]

just know this mr. siece, God sees time in a totaly diferit manner, and the bible was told directly from God to the saints (again cant seem to remember theyre name) witch wrote it, so to God seen 6 days, we see it diferit, and thats how he manages to decide who goes to hell and who do heaven all those people that are dead by now on earth and watch over us all...

Know what you're trying to say, but for a human to write a human concept of a "day" in the bible, but conveniently, have God's "day" be billions of years is silly.

Can I bring the entire universe in to discussion? If the Earth is 6,000 years old, how old is the universe? If one claims it is the same age as the Earth, then that's just ignoring evidence. If one claims that God just happened to want to create Earth in a vast spectrum of nothingness, then that's also far fetched.

 

[MC]

According to James Randi:

There are many ways this “miracle” can be performed, but since the church won’t let anyone investigate, there’s no point in trying to solve it. Why are they so secretive about it? Because it’s a sham, a trick, a swindle designed to deceive the faithful. The church knows that any investigation will immediately reveal that they’ve been lying to their members.

The potassium permanganate + glycerin trick is accomplished by preparing two pharmacy-style gelatin capsules, one with the KMnO4 crystals, the other with glycerin (glycerol) (C3H8O3). They are taped together, then concealed within the cloth, paper, or other flammable material. When the material is crushed so as to fracture both capsules together, the mixed contents produce a powerful exothermic chemical reaction that ignites the package. The permanganate, a powerful – poisonous – oxidizing chemical in the form of dark purple crystals, can be obtained at any store selling water-purifying supplies. The glycerin – a harmless, thick, clear, syrupy liquid, is found at any pharmacy.

As to how people don't get burned by touching the flame:

The mixture of carbon tetrachloride (CCl4) and carbon bisulphide (disulphide) (CS2) – both clear liquids – is about 50% of each. It is not too highly inflammable, but can easily be ignited. The result is a pale blue flame, which can only be seen in subdued light. Neither liquid should be imbibed, and should be washed off the skin quickly.

Source: http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-05/052606action.html#i9

 

[Zeonix]

Randi strikes from beyond the grave!

 

[ZeroNightmare]

theres rocks a hell of a lot older than that so where the hell does THAT put the argument?

 

[kam!]

I've seen the vids of the people that don't get burned... Give me a torch and I do the same -.-

 

[final shine]

http://nihonsankei.jp/eng/miyajima.html

Scroll down to Mt. Misen and read what little it says.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Fire#Criticism

I'm not even close to being convinced. If someone puts their hand within the flame for 10 minutes, and pulls their hand out of it without sustaining any injuries, I'll take a closer look. Until that happens, I'm not interested.

3 minutes, thats how long the flame dosnt burn, but i and i'm shure the rest of the pilgrims wold want to hear what the preist has to say rather than playing with the flame, that wold be pure ignorance of God's word..

Know what you're trying to say, but for a human to write a human concept of a "day" in the bible, but conveniently, have God's "day" be billions of years is silly.

Can I bring the entire universe in to discussion? If the Earth is 6,000 years old, how old is the universe? If one claims it is the same age as the Earth, then that's just ignoring evidence. If one claims that God just happened to want to create Earth in a vast spectrum of nothingness, then that's also far fetched.

why is it silly... think of heaven as a another relm for us, not another planet so time can fly just like here(the earth)

According to James Randi:

yea, theyre all sceptics befor seeing the fire, another sob trieing to get attention and publicity for money so i woldnt bet on him beeing right

As to how people don't get burned by touching the flame:


Source: http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-05/052606action.html#i9

ur missing something
flame's collor ->

ok this happens every year explain this smartasses...

edit 2:

I've seen the vids of the people that don't get burned... Give me a torch and I do the same -.-

if only electic stuff where allowd in there you wold get longer clips...

 

[J-Dude]

My God, we start a conversation about bigass older than dirt trees and it becomes another Christianty bashing courtesy of the ESF-Forums-Atheist/Agnostic-Believe-In-Nothing-Guild.

Or maybe it's the "Christianity-Undermining-Neutral-Tirade-Society"?

 

[Zeonix]

3 minutes, thats how long the flame dosnt burn, but i and i'm shure the rest of the pilgrims wold want to hear what the preist has to say rather than playing with the flame, that wold be pure ignorance of God's word..

This fits in perfectly with what MC posted.

Seeing as how I don't care what the priest has to say, I'm more interested in the flame. After all, you are trying to make the case that this is somehow a miracle.

@ J-Dude: Creationism-bashing (if you can even call what we're saying that) =/= Christian bashing. My mother is Protestant, and isn't a creationist. They aren't one and the same.

If you don't have anything to say regarding the topic or what we're currently discussing, see your way out and don't bother posting again.

 

[final shine]

i dont see where mc specifyd a time, and the color of the flame couterdicts the explication of not burning
and sice the preist said the prayers to sumon it i belive u do give a damn when that happens. thats the actual mircale, but its not ment to be playd with if u have somewhat respect, and you wold if you wold see it for youreself
and i want j-dude to stay, he gives me somekind of confort knowing that i'm not the onlyone that understands and belives this stuff, maybe even help me a litle.

 

[MC]

If this "Holy Fire" is indeed a miracle, then why is only the Archbishop allowed within the tomb before anyone else? And why is the tomb sealed after the Archbishop has entered?

 

[Zeonix]

Re-read MC's post. It explains exactly how a flame can appear to ignite out of nowhere, and how someone can prevent injury even while their hand is within the flame.

I have no problem with J-Dude posting here as long as he says something related to the topic. I don't want to hear him complain about how we're all christian-haters and that we're all going to hell. It's old, and I'm tired of it.

 

[final shine]

If this "Holy Fire" is indeed a miracle, then why is only the Archbishop allowed within the tomb before anyone else? And why is the tomb sealed after the Archbishop has entered?

because he's the highest in rank, and its seald so that noone can iterfeer , hm, hard to ansewr...

Re-read MC's post. It explains exactly how a flame can appear to ignite out of nowhere, and how someone can prevent injury even while their hand is within the flame.

I have no problem with J-Dude posting here as long as he says something related to the topic. I don't want to hear him complain about how we're all christian-haters and that we're all going to hell. It's old, and I'm tired of it.

i saw it, but it describes blue flame, flmae is bright yellow...

and u still havent explaind this:

again i say it happens every year