Originally posted by Bombg
Instant countering seems to be an exploit because of one main thing; it totally renders swoop+meelee useless if your opponent knows how to effectively instant counter.
So what happens when swoop+meelee is useless? People will sit around, and throw beams around all game. Who wants to attack someone who you know is going to knock you away instantly; no matter what you do?
I dont know about everyone else, but i think plain old beam tossing gets boring fast. Even if everyone is happy with beam tossing, there is still the fact that instant countering renders head on meelee attacks useless. Which disables one of the defining parts about the game.
I have never done an instant counter myself, but it does happen to me often. I will take some people's word on instant countering, and assume that it's skill based which requires good timing.
Yes having the game require lots of skill is a good thing. The problem is that even if two people are evenly skilled; the attacker will always loose due to instant countering Which leads back to one of my previous points; people will just sit and throw beams.
Right now Instant Countering isnt a huge problem, but I'm seeing more people doing it day by day. The problem will only get worse with time as players gain more skill.
I belive instant countering to be a flaw with meelee, and i hope the devs see it that way.
I have one suggestion (which i just thought up) that may help fix this flaw. Add in some code that makes it so only players swooping can hit other swooping players, and dont allow stationary players to hit swooping players. I'm not exactly sure if this is the root of the problem, but it seems like it.
and just for clarification.
What instant countering IS NOT.
-Someone countering a blocked attack.
What instant countering IS.
-An attacker being hit instantly as they enter their opponents meelee range. This allows no reaction time for the attacker; which renders his head on attack useless.
I hope that was clear enough.
-Bombg
I don't really agree with you about how to deal with it (because then people who are swooping are invincible to a degree, which makes things tougher), but I'm glad you see my point.
People like me and Bombg are getting misappropriated here, that's all. When we say "renders head on melee attacks useless" we don't mean that it sucks we can't HIT and KILL people with head on melee attacks; but I have a lot of fun fighting against another aggressive player who is quick with his block key, because obviously when I get blocked, then I teleport away, he teleports back, and we keep going at it with various combo techniques of teleporting, blocking, and swooping, and it's really fun and cool and balanced. We don't expect to hit and kill a guy every time we dive, and we certainly don't think that blocking and countering is cheap.
But you have to admit. If I'm fighting a guy who can hit me away before I can touch him...why even bother trying? But then it doesn't end there; he's taken no damage if he uses the insta-counter enough, and probably killed several people with it if there are a lot of melee aggressors int he server. Then his PL comes into play. And then guess what? My gallit gun gets flung back in my face almost every time.
The insta-counter isn't even a counter: you don't have to successfully stop the other player's attack to execute it like with an actual fair counter. And becuase of that there is no avoiding it, there is no real timing involved, and if you are playing someone who can do it, there is obviously no reason to even attempt a swoop.
It's not necessarily meant literally when we say "head on melee attacks" like everyone in this thread seems to think. We don't mean to insinuate that we stand right in front of the guy, look at him, swoop from two miles away, and be generally obvious about it, then complain when we get countered. If you get CAUGHT then you DESERVE to be COUNTERED, which is fine with me.
With the regular countering technique, there is a window for both players to counter, both the blocker and the blockee. This is fair. I can teleport away, or the blocker can melee me with a counter; fair's fair, if I got blocked and he's quick enough he deserves to get off the counter, and if I block and I'M quick enough, I deserve to avoid the hit. And this is what makes the fights rule! Who the hell wants to play "fake the other dude into swooping for the counter" Melee Mode?
Insta-counter, though, will always win, because there is no counter to it, there is no "skill" you develop to get away from it except for it promoting hitting people in the back, which everyone thinks is garbage anyway. That's not balance, that's like telling everyone who plays Counterstrike "don't stand in front of the AWP guy, shoot him in the back."
The game obviously wasn't meant to be played this way, is all I wanted to say in this thread.
I'm sure I'll find an exploit to get around this stupid move sooner or later, if it exists, and I'm sure the team will "fix" it by the next version anyway. It's a big issue, but like I said to my friend last night:
"Everyone likes winning before they like having and losing a good fight."
So everyone's not gonna want this "technique" removed or fixed or tweaked, blah blah. That's why I didn't bother with a poll ont his thread. lol
Personally I don't know how people who do this move can find the game as fun. It seems really boring to me.
Ok, so...just to clarify: I/WE ARE NOT SAYING "HEAD ON" MEANING BLIND STUPID DIVES, AND WE ARE NOT NOOBS WHO JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO MELEE. And besides...this game is supposed to be confrontational. This totally discourages confrontation and totally encourages beam spam and attacking from behind.
HEAD ON = An actual swooping/teleporting/still attack, not a blind dive in a straight line. What do you think, we're stupid, I'm stupid, I don't know that if a guy sees me coming he can block me then counter me? Duh...
But there's also a chance that when and if he does block me, I can escape the counter if he's not quick enough. There's also a chance I can break through his block, if I'm strong enough. And there's also a chance that I can stop short and fake him out. With insta-counter none of these things are possible and unless you get behind the guy and confuse the **** out of him and hit him in the back of the neck, you are done for every time.
Just because you all rely on it to be good, doesn't mean it is fair. Just because it helps you win doesn't mean it's good.
Since it's probably going to be stuck in, and since no one's gonna stop using it (they're winning like mad, after all, why would they stop?), I'll just have to try and find some workaround.
Just sucks though. All the fun is taken out of the game now that I have to try and maneuver myself into hitting people in the back by default (which by the way doesn't matter, cause you can be countered if someone is within your melee range on ANY SIDE or ANY DIRECTION anyways). I like to fight, and I hate the idea of a melee fight now being who can confuse the other dude and get behind him first, lather rinse repeat.
Sooner or later I'll beat it though. And eventually maybe I'll even just learn the move and spam it to teach everyone what I'm talking about.
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