Evolution

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Welp... for a long time I wanted to bring up the issue about the Engine(s) within each of our cells...but I couldn't remember the name...I didn't...

But if you click the link in my signature and look at the TEXT on the right.. and read under "Proof of God/Design". I think some of you may be suprised.

I'm glad the link reminded me of its' name and now I can find pictures of it..

http://www.arn.org/docs/mm/flag_labels.jpg

http://www.nanonet.go.jp/english/mailmag/2004/files/011a4.jpg

http://www.sciencemusings.com/blog/uploaded_images/motor-753655.jpg

http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/biophysics/images/flagellar motor.jpg
Flagella are not Irreducible complex, and thus not designed:
The flagella of certain bacteria constitute a molecular motor requiring the interaction of about 40 complex protein parts, and the absence of any one of these proteins causes the flagella to fail to function. Behe holds that the flagellum "engine" is irreducibly complex because if we try to reduce its complexity by positing an earlier and simpler stage of its evolutionary development, we get an organism which functions improperly.

Mainstream scientists regard this argument as having been largely disproved in the light of fairly recent research.[44] They point out that the basal body of the flagella has been found to be similar to the Type III secretory system (TTSS), a needle-like structure that pathogenic germs such as Salmonella and Yersinia pestis use to inject toxins into living eucaryote cells. The needle's base has many elements in common with the flagellum, but it is missing most of the proteins that make a flagellum work. Thus, this system seems to negate the claim that taking away any of the flagellum's parts would render it useless. This has caused Kenneth Miller to note that, "The parts of this supposedly irreducibly complex system actually have functions of their own." [45]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_flagella

Flagella are actually a compartment thought to have evolved via the endosymbiont theory (baaaad word)
much in the way of mitochondria and chloroplasts.
 
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Just because it's a "theory" doesn't mean it's not credible.

The theory of evolution has tons of evidence backing it.

A lot more than most other 'theories' do, like intelligent design.

I know which one seems more credible to me.. and it's not intelligent design, or any other.
 

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You've been told you're wrong. And yet you keep saying it over and over. That's spamming the thread, which is unacceptable.
Alright, please don't make me go into my rant about how mods need to use better judgment. Yes, Jinx is wrong, but you can't warn him for not changing his (wrong) belief. You're a very smart person, you should understand that.

I view the situation like this: You believe that you prove Jinx wrong with every post that you make. Jinx believes that he proves you wrong with every post that he makes. What's the difference between you two? You have the power to warn him, and as such, because he is unwilling to see that he is wrong, he must be trolling or spamming the thread.

Think of it as if Jinx were a mod. He'd be threatening to warn you because he's clearly proved you wrong (in his delusional mind), yet you keep insisting on posting. Why, you're spamming the thread! Unacceptable!


I'm just sayin'
 
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LOL? wo wo wo sub I'm not like that at all.. You've seen me with admin before on esf servers =]... I bet you dont even remember * becuz I practically never used them *..


I respect peoples beliefs, yet I see nothing wrong with having a debate on concepts that differ from mine.. through this I can have a better understand on which of the two is more logically correct in my opinion.

Edit: I'm no dictator fooz, I'm a Idea sharer ???
 

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I understand you're not like that, it was a hypothetical situation. I was reversing roles, putting you in Alea's shoes and Alea in your shoes so that she can see how ridiculous the idea of warning you over this is. I'm defending you man, lol.
 

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It was stated earlier that the Theory of Evolution is "full of holes". But what theory hasn't had it's fair share of holes and gaps? You can look through the history of science and find that just about every theory conceived had holes and gaps. However, over time, either of the following things happen:

1. The theory becomes more solid; filled with less holes and gaps through further research, observation and discovery.
2. The theory is replaced by a newer one that better explains what the previous theory could not.
 
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Do you remember when the Earth was flat?

... Yeah.
 

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Evolution is kind of like Democracy. It's not perfect, but it's the best thing we currently have.
 
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Alright, please don't make me go into my rant about how mods need to use better judgment. Yes, Jinx is wrong, but you can't warn him for not changing his (wrong) belief. You're a very smart person, you should understand that.

I view the situation like this: You believe that you prove Jinx wrong with every post that you make. Jinx believes that he proves you wrong with every post that he makes. What's the difference between you two? You have the power to warn him, and as such, because he is unwilling to see that he is wrong, he must be trolling or spamming the thread.

Think of it as if Jinx were a mod. He'd be threatening to warn you because he's clearly proved you wrong (in his delusional mind), yet you keep insisting on posting. Why, you're spamming the thread! Unacceptable!


I'm just sayin'
As I've told Jinx; it's not the posting of material that contradicts or refutes anyone else's material. It's repeating what you said before, almost verbatim, while ignoring the responses of other people.

Example:

Person A: This is wrong because A claims (this).

Persons B, C, D, E: A doesn't claim (that).

Person A: This is wrong because A claims (this).

Persons B, C: We just told you A doesn't claim (that).

And it continues over and over again. It's not a debate over the subject; it discourages actual discussion.

Jinx, in five separate posts, insisted that (through his own words, and through the youtube videos he posted) that evolution is false because of its stance on abiogenesis. As numerous people posted, evolution makes absolutely no claims about abiogenesis.

Then, after people had posted evidence for evolution, comes out and says "Well, where's the evidence?" Everything indicating that he doesn't actually read people's responses (at least, understand them) while continuing to repeat the same thing over and over.

Then latching on to the difference in the meaning of the word "theory." What people normally think of a theory is actually a hypothesis. He was told this by multiple people.

Everyone is free to refute evolution. But use actual arguments, data, studies, etc, that refute it. His recent arguments, while I consider wrong, are acceptable. He's free to argue "intelligent design" if he wants to. But before, the repeated (ad. naseum) insistence that evolution is abiogenesis, when if he had done thirty seconds of research would've told him otherwise, is spam.

It's the same thing if I went into a thread about Dragonball and said "this show sucks because it's made in Russia."

People respond to me, say it's not, and I continue to babble on about how it's made in Russia, and therefore sucks. Now imagine two pages of the the thread are devoted to how Dragonball isn't actually from Russia, despite my repeated insistence.

That's spam, which derails the thread.
 
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Jinx, in five separate posts, insisted that (through his own words, and through the youtube videos he posted) that evolution is false because of its stance on abiogenesis. As numerous people posted, evolution makes absolutely no claims about abiogenesis.
She's ignoring the other comments made too, but oh well.


We commonly get email complaints from evolutionists who object to us including abiogenesis as part of the theory of evolution. They claim that the theory of evolution is limited to natural selection, and says nothing about the spontaneous origin of life through natural processes (abiogenesis). Here is part of a typical email.

… And from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html:

"One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn't depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn't affect evolution in the least."

If you intend to show the flaws in a theory, you must be familiar with its wording and content. Errors such as this leave you struggling with false arguments, whilst the proponents of the theory gleefully advertise your mistake as willful ignorance.

I hope this helps,

-Johnny



TalkOrigins would love to limit evolution to natural selection. If schools taught nothing more than natural selection, then there would be no controversy. The well-known creationists all agree that (natural or artificial) selection produces limited variations in living things. That’s why we have different breeds of dogs, horses, pigeons, corn, and roses.

There is controversy because the theory of evolution, AS IT IS TAUGHT IN AMERICAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, is not limited to natural selection. It includes the origin of life, creative mutations, and long ages. This can be seen from the table of contents of this typical college biology textbook.


Unit 3 – Evolution

Chapter 14 – Principles of Evolution
Chapter 15 – How Organisms Evolve
Chapter 16 – The Origin of Species
Chapter 17 – The History of Life on Earth
If the origin of life isn’t one of the principles of evolution, then human evolution must not be one of the principles of the theory of evolution, either.
Here’s part of another college biology textbook’s index.


Chapter 34 Theory of Evolution

Early Theories of the Origin of Life
… 2
Source: http://ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v11i9e.htm
 
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She's ignoring the other comments made too, but oh well.






Source: http://ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v11i9e.htm
You see, Jinx? That wasn't hard. You're arguing the right way now.

But your source doesn't list where he's getting his data from. How does he know how evolution is taught across the world? He would have to have done systematic analysis of said schools. But I'm not seeing one.

My parents work for the US Department of State; I've traveled around the world my entire life, and went to more than 20 school systems--many in the US as well. Evolution was discussed in numerous science classes in my early schooling, in biology in high school and numerous biology/organic chemistry classes in college.

None of the discussions pertaining evolution also taught abiogenesis. Multiple, non-evolution related theories on abiogenesis were discussed afterwards, because evolution doesn't try to explain abiogenesis.

"The Origin of Species" is the name of Darwin's book. It's not talking about the "origin of all life." Just how different species evolve.

Having "The Origin of Species" listed on a curriculum has nothing to do with abiogenesis.

Your source is wrong.

Jinx's source said:
The natural spontaneous origin of life, abiogenesis, is scientifically absurd ... But it is the foundation of the theory of evolution taught to our school children ... Because abiogenesis is so clearly false, most evolutionists want to separate it from the theory of evolution.
As a sidenote, There's no such thing as an "evolutionist." Scientists as a whole, unlike religious people, adhere to the scientific method. Which means that if a current model of thinking (the theory of evolution) doesn't explain our observations as well as another, it is scrapped and a new one is formulated.

Your source is trying to debunk evolution by saying abiogenesis is preposterous. As evolution makes no claim about abiogenesis (READ the Origin of the Species. Read it!), evolution cannot be debunked by saying abiogenesis is unlikely or preposterous.
 
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I've seen it with my own two eyes...

I do live in the USA


Evolutionist
n.
1. One skilled in evolutions.


2. One who holds the doctrine of evolution, either in biology or in metaphysics. Darwin.
It is a common belief among today's scientists that life's origin was naturally based, and therefore abiogenesis (life from non-life) must have occurred. Today 95% of the biologists in the National Academy of Science are either atheist or agnostic (Nature, Vol. 394, No. 6691, p. 313). The creation / evolution controversy is largely a debate between theistic or atheistic philosophical presupposition.

The Darwinian evolutionist believes that all life on earth has evolved from a single ancestor because the the spontaneous origin of a living cell is extremely improbable. Likewise all organisms on earth were constructed with the same common design, which to some indicates a common ancestry. Abiogenesis is a theory that attempts to explain the origin of life through random natural processes, and is taught as a regular component of evolutionary biology. The evidence to support a spontaneous origin of life is nonexistent, but like evolution itself is taught as absolute fact in biology classes.
http://www.nwcreation.net/abiogenesis.html
 
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I've seen it with my own two eyes...

I do live in the USA
Again, you're not responding to the fact that evolution makes no claim regarding abiogenesis, and insisting it's false because it does. This is what I referred to earlier as mindless repetition.

Read Darwin's book, the Origin of the Species. (Which is your source's only refutation of evolution--the title of his book?)

You can find it at any library, school, public or otherwise.

I know you live in the USA--you live in Virginia, which is where I live. I can personally speak for the Fairfax County school system, and numerous others.

Theories about abiogenesis are taught in close proximity to the theory of evolution, because they're relevant to one another. But evolution itself doesn't make claims about abiogenesis.

Neither Webster Miriam's dictionary or the Cambridge dictionary have entries for "evolutionist." If you want to define it simply as "someone who supports evolution," that's fine. But it doesn't imply a fanatic belief in it.
 
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VideoJinx said:
Can you explain how the theory of evolution describes the "origin of life/species".
Wikipedia said:
<dl><dd>For more details on this topic, see Abiogenesis and RNA world hypothesis.</dd></dl>
The origin of life is a necessary precursor for biological evolution, but understanding that evolution occurred once organisms appeared and investigating how this happens, does not depend on understanding exactly how life began.<sup id="cite_ref-108" class="reference">[144]</sup> The current scientific consensus is that the complex biochemistry that makes up life came from simpler chemical reactions, but it is unclear how this occurred.<sup id="cite_ref-109" class="reference">[145]</sup> Not much is certain about the earliest developments in life, the structure of the first living things, or the identity and nature of any last universal common ancestor or ancestral gene pool.<sup id="cite_ref-110" class="reference">[146]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-111" class="reference">[147]</sup> Consequently, there is no scientific consensus on how life began, but proposals include self-replicating molecules such as RNA,<sup id="cite_ref-112" class="reference">[148]</sup> and the assembly of simple cells.<sup id="cite_ref-113" class="reference">[149]
</sup>
 
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....So... let's theoretically say, evolution is* seperate FROM "Abiogenisis"...

Can you explain how the theory of evolution describes the "origin of life".
It doesn't. I told you, the theory of evolution makes no claims whatsoever about the origin of life.

Even your (new) source admits that.

Charles Darwin said:
It is mere rubbish to talk about the origin of life; one might as well talk about the origin of matter.
Abiogenesis and evolution are related because they both try to explain aspects of life. But one is not responsible for the other. Evolution only describes how life evolved, once it already existed.
 
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....So... let's theoretically say, evolution is* seperate FROM "Abiogenisis"...

Can you explain how the theory of evolution describes the "origin of life/species".
Evolution does not describe the origin of life.
It does explain the origin of species by mutation and natural selection.

Abiogenesis tries to describe the origin of life. So far no satisfying model has been created.

IIRC the main goal was to show that organic substances could have formed spontaneously.
Organic substances were thought to be produced only by living things (hence the name organic).

Edit:
Abiogenesis and evolution are seperate, just like the theory of gravitation does not want to describe how the universe was formed.
 
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nono I meant the


"Origin of Species" .. you know the Title of Darwin's book when explaining evolution.

From my logic, you need to know the origins of life to know the Origins of a species.. and I believe the way it was used on Darwin's book was a General sense of the word which referred to all species..
 
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nono I meant the


"Origin of Species" .. you know the Title of Darwin's book when explaining evolution.

From my logic, you need to know the origins of life to know the Origins of a species.. and I believe the way it was used on Darwin's book was a General sense of the word which referred to all species..
You don't need to know where life came from in order to understand how it evolves.
You don't need to know where an engine is from in order to understand how it works.
 
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Kam..


Darwin's Book the "The Origin of Species"... is what supposedly explains the "Origin of Species" through evolution..

What I'm asking is, for you to tell me how evolution explains the origin of species.
 

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