Evolution

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Alea hit it right on the head.

Your beliefs aren't what people are taking issue with. It's the fact that you seem to centralize your beliefs around assumptions of the theory of evolution that aren't true.
 
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Alea hit it right on the head.

Your beliefs aren't what people are taking issue with. It's the fact that you seem to centralize your beliefs around assumptions of the theory of evolution that aren't true.

Care to be more specific?

If you guys/girl are gonna post stuff like this... at least address why you believe evolution is the real... and I hope its not simply because its a popular belief that many scientists believe in... and I hope its not based upon uncertainty...
Anyone feel free to put up some info as to why you believe the current "Model" of evolution is true.
 
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Care to be more specific?



Anyone feel free to put up some info as to why you believe the current "Model" of evolution is true.
I warned you about sticking your fingers in your ears and saying the same thing over and over. Optimus specifically told you how you were wrong: evolution is not a model of abiogenesis. How many times do I have to tell you this?

I directly replied to that point, had you actually bothered to read. No more de-railing this thread will be allowed.
 
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Sigh.. right...

I could go and get butt loads of info on the holes of this THEORY, I could even stay here and try to explain it letter by letter making sure nobody misinterpets me :rolleyes: ,but I think this guy does a great job summarizing all of it into one 10 minute video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oF3JFCJQASg
 
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Sigh.. right...

I could go and get butt loads of info on the holes of this THEORY, I could even stay here and try to explain it letter by letter making sure nobody misinterpets me :rolleyes: ,but I think this guy does a great job summarizing all of it into one 10 minute video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oF3JFCJQASg
The difference between a theory and fact in the scientific realm has already been explained to you. I've given you two friendly warnings now. I don't like giving official warnings out--any more and you'll earn yourself one.
 
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Care to be more specific?
Gladly.

VideoJinx said:
Despite all that, what I findto be the most ludicris claim of evolution itself.... is the claim of Life coming from "non-life".
Wrong.

VideoJinx said:
When you believe in evolution, you disvalue life at the same time.. because your saying not only does life come from "non-life", but also that life "exists" only by "chance/luck".
Still wrong.

VideoJinx[/quote said:
your existance is simply a fluke
Wrong again.

VideoJinx said:
as evolution would have you not believe because you exist only by chance anyway. When you die it wont matter according to evolution.
Swing and a miss.

VideoJinx said:
If you believe in the process of evolution and creationism you aren't an evolutionist
Could you believe it? WRONG AGAIN!

VideoJinx said:
but I still believe I'm right when I say how the first cell came to be, is apart of the evolution theory
And I believe that if I buy a DeLorean I can travel back to the future. Doesn't make it true. Which is why once again, you're wrong.

VideoJinx said:
Optimus im not saying evolution is flawed just* because it can't* logically explain where the first cell comes from,
That's good. Because it's not the point of evolution to explain where the first cell comes from. Just like it's not the point of evolution to explain why milk is good with peanut butter.

VideoJinx said:
but it's also flawed in the theoretical processes it claims to happen, it's flawed in it's lack or absence of evidence..
I'm sorry, but observation is evidence, whether you believe it to be or not.

VideoJinx said:
and it's flawed to consider life as mere fluke,
Even if it is a flaw to consider life a mere fluke, this isn't a flaw of evolution because it doesn't make that claim.

VideoJinx said:
it's flawed in ignoring the abundant evidence of design...
Oh wise one. Enlighten us with your abundance of evidence for design. Because as far as I'm concerned, there is bounds of evidence for evolution, and yet design all comes down to faith, and nothing more.

Or do you still need me to be more specific?

VideoJinx said:
I am honestly ready to believe you are a troll.

The first two lines of that video are "The majority of evolutionists believe in this lie called abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is the theory that life can arise spontaneously from non-living molecules under proper conditions."

How many times do we have to tell you, "EVOLUTION IS NOT THE SAME THING AS ABIOGENESIS, NOR ARE THE TWO DEPENDENT ON EACH OTHER."
 
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Alea, i dont care who or what title a person carries... you may do what you want, but i've done nothing wrong here.. i've stayed on topic and everything i say ISN"T addressed to specifically you.. so maybe you should consider other people would like to post in response to my questions.. I know your position on this... and raging will only result in emotional self harm.

The difference between a theory and fact in the scientific realm has already been explained to you. I've given you two friendly warnings now. I don't like giving official warnings out--any more and you'll earn yourself one.

As for this... are you TRYING to force your beliefs on me? I believe I have STIFFLY shown you my opinion on the matter. Especially when I QUOTED the definition of each term and SHOWN that FACT is the direct opposite of THEORY also known as an "Antonym"..

As for this 2nd previous SO CALLED friendly warning...

I warned you about sticking your fingers in your ears and saying the same thing over and over. Optimus specifically told you how you were wrong: evolution is not a model of abiogenesis. How many times do I have to tell you this?

I directly replied to that point, had you actually bothered to read. No more de-railing this thread will be allowed.
My post again WASNT only directed towards you, keep in mind that this IS NOT a 1 on 1 conversation, but instead a THREAD of multiple people with MANY different opinions. Especially since my question was NOT directed towards you but at Optimas Prime.

Carefully read again my FULL post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus Prime
Alea hit it right on the head.

Your beliefs aren't what people are taking issue with. It's the fact that you seem to centralize your beliefs around assumptions of the theory of evolution that aren't true.


Care to be more specific?


Quote:
If you guys/girl are gonna post stuff like this... at least address why you believe evolution is the real... and I hope its not simply because its a popular belief that many scientists believe in... and I hope its not based upon uncertainty...

Anyone feel free to put up some info as to why you believe the current "Model" of evolution is true.
as for the 2nd question, like i said before i was looking for why people believe in the theory as I haven't read any post yet, from anyone to explain their beliefs as to WHY they themselves believe in the "theory of evolution".




To come back ON TOPIC once again, like in ALL my posts here

Here is the question I wanted to ask before sensing abit of hostility from you, Alea.


As for evolution, does anyone have a response to the video ON evolution, that I've posted up.. because I'de like to hear peoples opinions after seeing it
 
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VideoJinx. People don't want to post their opinions, because all it leads to you is telling them why they're wrong and why your Youtube video is more credible than scientists.

Now, I understand that you might feel people are attacking your opinions, but the difference is that your opinions (as you have clearly shown by yourself) are based upon false assumptions, misinterpretations and flat out lies about the theory of evolution, and what it actually purports to do.

I can argue until my face is blue that they theory of relativity is a crackpot because it doesn't explain why salt-water makes me thirsty, but it's sure not going to help my credibility.
 
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right... whatever.. like i said.. this is childish bs ... and it all started because i put up my perspective on evolution...


As I said before evolution to me makes life valueless... therefore I dont believe in it.. I've been carefull to put I BELIEVE or MY OPINION in all my posts just about..

and if you cant handle my concepts having a slight jab at your concepts... then thats a debatable issue huh?

People don't want to post their opinions, because all it leads to you is telling them why they're wrong and why your Youtube video is more credible than scientists.
I'de recommend you speak for yourself.. but if people feel that way.. they do.. I haven't said anyone was wrong here.. I've said what are "MY BELIEFS".
 
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Alea, i dont care who or what title a person carries... you may do what you want, but i've done nothing wrong here.. i've stayed on topic and everything i say ISN"T addressed to specifically you.. so maybe you should consider other people would like to post in response to my questions.. I know your position on this... and raging will only result in emotional self harm.
It's not a matter of staying on-topic. You're spamming the thread by insisting the same thing over and over again. The same ignorant, incorrect assumption about evolution you and your video posts have made.

VideoJinx said:
As for this... are you TRYING to force your beliefs on me? I believe I have STIFFLY shown you my opinion on the matter. Especially when I QUOTED the definition of each term and SHOWN that FACT is the direct opposite of THEORY also known as an "Antonym"..
You act like "belief" is sacred. As Optimus has said, beliefs can be wrong. Unequivocally, 100%, no-interpretation-allowed wrong.

You have been told what a theory is in a scientific context. The argument against evolution is that "it is merely a theory" is fallacious. There's nothing further in science than a theory.

Only mathematics and logic can be "proven" in the strictest scientific sense. A triangle can't have more than three edges. 2+2 will never equal anything other than 4.

It being called the "theory" of evolution does not mean there's lingering doubt or controversy. You are wrong.

You've been told you're wrong. And yet you keep saying it over and over. That's spamming the thread, which is unacceptable.

VideoJinx said:
My post again WASNT only directed towards you, keep in mind that this IS NOT a 1 on 1 conversation, but instead a THREAD of multiple people with MANY different opinions. Especially since my question was NOT directed towards you but at Optimas Prime.
You do not respond to "varying opinions." You don't respond to opinions at all. You merely restate your own over and over again, despite them being debunked. This is spamming the thread, which is unacceptable.

VideoJinx said:
as for the 2nd question, like i said before i was looking for why people believe in the theory as I haven't read any post yet, from anyone to explain their beliefs as to WHY they themselves believe in the "theory of evolution".
Both Optimus and I had directly responded to that question. And yet you com eback again and ask "WHY do you BELIEVE in it, rather than simply latching onto beliefs of scientists?"

This is spamming the thread, which is unacceptable. Your question was already answered.

VideoJinx said:
Here is the question I wanted to ask before sense abit of hostility from you, Alea.
I'm hostile to anyone who intentionally tries to annoy others by specifically ignoring objections to their arguments. You're not interested in debate, intelligent discourse, etc--you're only interesting in reposting fact-less garbage from YouTube and blog posts over and over. It's trolling.

Belief in something doesn't mean you're right. It is not a shield that protects you against scientific criticism.

"I BELIEVE JINX'S MOTHER WAS A HORSE! IT'S MY OPINION!"

Does that mean you can't prove me wrong? NO.
 
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But what gives you any right to discount evolution by claiming it does things/says things that it doesn't.

Just like I have no right to say that in my opinion the theory of gravitation claims the sky is green. But I just looked at the sky, and it's clearly blue. Therefore it is my belief that the theory of gravitation is a load of B.S.

Even if I say well this is my opinion or this are my BELIEFS does not mean they aren't subject to scrutiny, and more importantly, doesn't mean they can't be wrong.

What you've done this entire discussion, is no different.
 
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I'm hostile to anyone who intentionally tries to annoy others by specifically ignoring objections to their arguments. You're not interested in debate, intelligent discourse, etc--you're only interesting in reposting fact-less garbage from YouTube and blog posts over and over. It's trolling.
First of all. LOL :laff: o_o


I really wish you would stop jumping to conclusion.. as i've said in many other posts.. I've presented my perspective and when you say "FACT = THEORY IN SCIENTIFC TERMS" I strongly disagree.. now.. is that so hard to swallow or is that too big for you, to ignore?.... Fact-less garbage?? hrmm... if you have read my post with less persecutive aggression.. maybe you wouldve seen that clean cut "unwavering"/ believable facts have been what I wanted to be presented out other people who believed in evolution.. but it seems you'd rather shout YOUR WRONG:devsmile: YOUR WRONG:devsmile:.... welp.... guess what..... I never said i was right. I said what i believe TO be right i've also provided why.... and after that I've been looking for ... as i said before :tired: some believable facts... because I'm not the type of person who's so easily persuaded by any info I find or am presented with..
Also keep in mind, that I've heard your arguement before and I didn't reply to each of your post becaues knowing you we could go and add 10 more pages to this thread over technicall terms that are completely besides the point.


So.. you get my 2 thumbs down:no::no: for losing your temper...


Second of all, my mom happens to be a stallion that could out run any of you jokers =o.

But, on a more serious note

Just like I have no right to say that the theory of gravitation claims the sky is green. But I just looked at the sky, and it's clearly blue. Therefore the theory of gravitation is a load of B.S.

What you've done this entire discussion, is no different.

Can you explain in more detail instead of Generalizing it? Show me how evolution is "true".

and I'm praying you dont go back to the crud about Fact is the same as theory in scientifc terms.
 
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Adaption, which can also be described as natural selection is a part of the theory of evolution, and there are countless examples of it out there in the plant and animal kingdom.
 
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Do you realize that the processing of Natural Selection as I understand it doesn't "create" a more suitable being thats "more" adapted to it's environment?

Yet instead, eliminates those who are unfit in their environment..

It doesn't create something new from what already is, as I understand it.

edit-- when i think of evolution I'm mainly refering to what evolution mainly suggests.. that we evolve or "grow" into a new species..

although i see the reality of natural selection, and although its associated with evolution.. it I dont see how it envolves the growth or the occurance of "new species" aka evolution
 
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I really wish you would stop jumping to conclusion.. as i've said in many other posts.. I've presented my perspective and when you say "FACT = THEORY IN SCIENTIFC TERMS" I strongly disagree.. now.. is that so hard to swallow or is that too big for you, to ignore?....
Your disagreement means nothing--you're wrong. Whether it's called "theory," "law," "absolute truth," etc--it doesn't matter. It doesn't change what the theory of evolution is about. There is overwhelming evidence for it.

VideoJinx said:
Fact-less garbage?? hrmm... if you have read my post with less persecutive aggression.. maybe you wouldve seen that clean cut "unwavering"/ believable facts have been what I wanted to be presented out other people who believed in evolution.. but it seems you'd rather shout YOUR WRONG:devsmile: YOUR WRONG:devsmile:.... welp.... guess what..... I never said i was right. I said what i believe TO be right i've also provided why....
You haven't posted any facts, except sources which claim that evolution is false because "evolution's theory of abiogenesis is wrong."

Evolution doesn't make a prediction about abiogenesis, thus making you wrong.

You having an unjustified "belief" doesn't shield you from scientific criticism, as I've said before.

VideoJinx said:
and after that I've been looking for ... as i said before :tired: some believable facts... because I'm not the type of person who's so easily persuaded by any info I find or am presented with..
On the contrary. You're easily convinced, as long as it is presented in the form of a youtube video or sourceless blog post.

VideoJinx said:
So.. you get my 2 thumbs down:no::no: for losing your temper...
I haven't lost my temper. If I lost my temper, I'd overstep my bounds and simply ban you on the spot.

VideoJinx said:
Can you explain in more detail instead of Generalizing it? Show me how evolution is "true".
Read the above posts. Such as the numerous examples and expansive online sources I posted earlier.

VideoJinx said:
and I'm praying you dont go back to the crud about Fact is the same as theory in scientifc terms.
As I and numerous other people have told you--your incorrect belief that it being called a "theory" somehow means it's not true or unproven is simply ignorance on your part. Congratulations.
 
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ooooOOOoooo

:devsmile:Alea:devsmile:

Are you still shouting I'm wrong :laff:eek:_o

Fact-less garbage?? hrmm... if you have read my post with less persecutive aggression.. maybe you wouldve seen that clean cut "unwavering"/ believable facts have been what I wanted to be presented out of other people who believed in evolution.. but it seems you'd rather shout YOUR WRONG:devsmile: YOUR WRONG:devsmile:.... welp.... guess what..... I never said i was right. I said what i believe TO be right i've also provided why....
I fixed that quote by adding in that missing word in bold.. maybe now you'll get the main point...
 
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I'de recommend you speak for yourself.. but if people feel that way.. they do.. I haven't said anyone was wrong here.. I've said what are "MY BELIEFS".
You called evolution "B.S." and "highly unlikely". I other words, the slightest support for evolution would make the "wrong".

Jinx, if evolution is wrong, what is your alternative idea?
 
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For me, it's design.. and not the popular beliefs about it.. but that would be for another thread...
 
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tl;dr version of my post:
The youtube vis is biased garbage at it's finest!

Ok I'll kindly respond to the last vid you posted, and I dare to try to debunk in a way that you may understand.
Befor I do that I'll adress the apparent problem you have with evolution:

As I said before evolution to me makes life valueless... therefore I dont believe in it.. I've been carefull to put I BELIEVE or MY OPINION in all my posts just about..
First off, if evolution means to you that life is valueless, that's entirely your problem.
I could have a problem with the fact that the earth revolves around the sun because
it makes our planet less important. wtfbbqsauce that doesn't change that fact i hear? RIGHT!

So what you do is try to find arguments against evolution, which can be a fallacy in itself since if you
want evolution to be wrong, you can find "evidence" for it.

And that brings me to the next point, the *cough* youtube vid.
Aside from the content, the music is horrid and tries to create a mysterious "omgsecretrevealed" atmosphere.
Then content:
It uses propaganda methods, e.g. "the lie abiogenesis", "liars err... evolutionists" etc.
Which isn't really scientific but rather.... childish?
Alright first attack is again abiogenesis. Aside from the fact that evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis
it even attacks abiogenesis in an inproper way. He (creator of the vid) like any other attacker of abiogenesis seen in this thread
attacks the "Miller&Urey" experiment, which is 1 theoretical approach to how organic substances
could have been formed. It's only 1 out of many theories that try to explain abiogenesis.
AFAIK the experiment wanted to prove if under roughly the conditions of early earth organic substances
could hav spontaneously formed. But well it has nothin to do with evolution anywayss, so let's move on.

Rambling about natural selection and mutations.
In this part there occurs twisting of facts, namely that all mutations are harmful, and "evolutionists" can't provide
evidence of useful mutations. There are useful mutations. One example: Some people won't die /or won't die as early as others)
from HIV/AIDS. This is caused by a difference in a gene that codes for a receptor in immune cells.

Next part is about transistory animals and apparantly not changing animals.
I'll adress the animals that haven't changed over millions of years first:
He picked out 3-4 animals that haven't changed. First of: wow that's a lot. Second: Look up the term Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium.
In easy words: it describes the conditions under which no evolution will happen.
Populations that live in a Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium will not change genetically (and thus won't change in general).
Transistory animals are a bit harder: (This is all according to my knowledge, someone with more insight is free to correct me)
The fossil record isn't complete. Animals have to die in special conditions in order to fossilize.
It's impossible to have a contineous timeline of fossils. Thus a fossil is always only a peek into a time period. Between these peeks
there lie many million years. So in between peeks many changes can happen.

The statements about the homnid fossils are lies. e.g
"piltdown man"
The "Piltdown Man" is a famous hoax consisting of fragments of a skull and jawbone collected in 1912 from a gravel pit at Piltdown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

Way to go! Prove a hoax incomplete in order to prove evolution wrong!

"nebraska man"
Nebraska Man was the name applied by the popular press to Hesperopithecus haroldcookii, a putative species of ape. Hesperopithecus meant "ape of the western world" and it was heralded as the first higher primate of North America. Though not a deliberate hoax, the classification proved to be a mistake.
Same as "piltdown man". Both aren't used by "evolutionists" to track human ancestry, since they're not homo.

The first fossil of the "java man" was indeed a skullcap and a thighbone,
but there were more fossils found that were more complete.

"Neanderthal" LIES

"Lucy & australopethices"
One of the arguments was that they didn't walk like modern human.
Of course they did not.
Bipedialism was something unique, it had to develop or evolve.

His arguments against human ancestry all fail, since he's unable (and doesn't even mention) to debunk real
human ancestors as false, like homo ergaster, homo errectus, homo rudolfensis etc.
He fails to even mention them!


This is a bit of a lenghty post, I bet I missed some intermediate responses, I'll adress them in an edit.

Edit:(hey big&bold is fun xD)
Do you realize that the processing of Natural Selection as I understand it doesn't "create" a more suitable being thats "more" adapted to it's environment?

Yet instead, eliminates those who are unfit in their environment..

It doesn't create something new from what already is, as I understand it.

edit-- when i think of evolution I'm mainly refering to what evolution mainly suggests.. that we evolve or "grow" into a new species..

although i see the reality of natural selection, and although its associated with evolution.. it I dont see how it envolves the growth or the occurance of "new species" aka evolution
You can't see evolution happen in your lifetime on a macroscopic level. The problem is that evolution is linked to generations,
and many animals are rather slow at producing new generations.
You can however observe evolution in bacteria and virae pretty easily. One example is the HI virus.

You are somewhat right with your natural selection argument (which you took straight out of the vid).
Imagine a population of apes living in a forest. They live in a forest, so natural selection
favors those who are well adapted to living in trees. Now by some random event
Half of the population is forced into a tree-less environment. Still there? Good.
Now the first half will still not change, since conditions didn't change. The others, however, are forced to adapt
(->selective pressure, if you want the right term). Now natural selection will only favor those apes
and eventual mutations that will happen that are beneficial in a tree-less environment.
Maybe those apes will adapt to bipedialism. Maybe, since their hands are free they can use them to manipulate tools.
Maybe this leads to an increase in brain volume and the development of language.
Nahhh that's too far-fetched to be true, sorry.


And Jinx, not to be insulting, but your fact!=theory argument is just stupid. Let me explain to you what a scientific theory is.
First you make observations. Then, beacuse of these observations (or facts) you formulate a hypothesis.
You then make further observations to see if your hypothesis is still true. If you can't find any contradicting
evidence you publish your hypothesis, which is then called theory. Scientific peers are now free to test your theory.

You can't say for me the word scientific theory means something different, thus evolution isn't a fact.


Edit2:
Quite awesome public lecture about evolution I visited last year, it's worth the hour
Piccy guide since the player was a ***** to me the first time:


http://tv.royalsoc.ac.uk/dpx_live/dpx.php?dpxuser=dpx_v12
 
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Welp... for a long time I wanted to bring up the issue about the Engine(s) within each of our cells...but I couldn't remember the name...I didn't...

But if you click the link in my signature and look at the TEXT on the right.. and read under "Proof of God/Design". I think some of you may be suprised.

I'm glad the link reminded me of its' name and now I can find pictures of it..

http://www.arn.org/docs/mm/flag_labels.jpg

http://www.nanonet.go.jp/english/mailmag/2004/files/011a4.jpg

http://www.sciencemusings.com/blog/uploaded_images/motor-753655.jpg

http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/biophysics/images/flagellar motor.jpg
 

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