A little help with character design?

[J-Dude]

Argh...that stupid website never works. Every time I try to click it it takes me to the tutorial-list page. If I save-target-as, it saves an HTML document, not a zip file.

EDIT:

too many unresolved edges, and the shape isnt right, youve got a very pointed face there, it should be more flat toward the front. plus, the inside of the mouth has more than double the amount of polies of the whole head.

Okay, what is an unresolved edge? What is wrong with the shape? I followed the ref. And the inside of the mouth...? It only has like eight polys...unless you mean the teeth, which are seperate objects.

 

[Skiwan]

http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/tutorial.htm try those tutorials (video ones are great)

in response to your edit, you have edges that just disappear, they should all flow into another edge, having more than a 4 sided poly is considered a big no no, scince it creates a sloppy mesh. Following a ref isnt enough, you're responsible for whats inbetween the lines in your reference, and that shape (1/4 view) is currently bad.

 

[Ryeko]

J can't download them properly, can somone host them elsewhere?

 

[Almighty_Gir]

an unresolved edge, is an edge that just finishes, for no reason. your left with like 7 or 8 sided polies.

like i said, your face at the moment is very much "v" shaped, and should be more "U" shaped.

get rid of the teeth, you can make teeth using planes.

 

[SA_Gohan]

The exact problem with your model is that all those vertices and the lines they are creating don't do anything towards making the model look like what you want it to.

Yes, you have the shape of a head blocked in, but that's only from two angles: The front and the side. And unfortunately you have to think about what your creating from all angles, otherwise your shapes don't portray the volume your trying to get, as is happening here.

My first suggestion would be to consider where there are dips and shallow areas on a head, and where you should be putting them on the head.

- There are shadowy areas under the brow, so that area recedes. Bring the eyes back.

- From the top view of your model, I imagine that it looks incredibly triangular, and that's because there are no cheeks on your model. Even if you just moved the verts to round it out from thatperspective, it would improve the model.

- There is absolutely no reason to model on the eyebrows at this point. Having them there is making you think that because you have those landmarks there you've got a head, and you don't. You have a contorted box. (Harsh, but its the truth) You can get rid of them now, and put them on with a texture later, or if you really must model them, put them back on later when you've built up your forms.

- Your polygon flow is bad. Bad enough that you won't be able to use this in a 3d animation without wanting to rip your eyes from your head from the shear difficult of making everything move properly.
So that we're on the same page, I refer to polygon flow as having all your lines following the general lines, and muscles of the face (whether for a real or imagined character). That means that there should be edge loops going around the mouth, the eyes, and some extending from the bridge of the nose and heading downwards to the chin, and towards the back of the head (at least that's how I handle it).

http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/3d/topology_research/topology_research.htm

And just because your making a dbz model, or anything anime-ish in general doesn't mean you don't think about this.

 

[J-Dude]

*sits down, depressed & defeated & begins to tear up*

Great...tutorials aren't there...obviously I'm a total F***-up at modelling...and now I'm supposed to make my whole face over...just perfect...this is a major blow in my self-esteem.

Thanks for the "U" "V" tip Ax. You mean as though the U and V were shapes seen from and "above" view right?

 

[Ryeko]

J-Dude, this is what they all mean, I understood this. You have shapes, that form into blech.

Those are what they are talking about. I think.

 

[J-Dude]

Well of course those, I started out with a super-low poly box. That isn't even attached yet, let alone welded; the top/back of the head is a seperate object. I was GOING to cut more polys obviously. I'd probably have been better suited to use the slice plane for those anyway...not that it matters now...

You know, I'm personally amazed that nobody pointed these things out earlier. It was all just "good show, just cut this edge and move that there". Nobody said a word about this edgeloop business, never stopped me before I continued on in a pattern that was remarkably predictable. I was allowed to plow on ahead like a stupid child...

 

[PiXel]

why not poly by poly modeling? why not learn how to extrude and do edgeloops?

we didnt posted here befor because this thread didnt interested us,( i wasn interested though) it all looked messy, as it is now.As you may could look up others work where the edgeloopin shizzle was sometimes pointed out, not latly though.
i cant really ad anything, but i would suggest to redo it and find a "flow" (thats all i can say what explains so many words about it) in your mesh.
keep practisising please, if you lose inspirations, take something else or start after a week or later again to feel later to do something again

hope anytime something will turn out well.

 

[Volosity]

yea, i stoped modeling for about a year and got really rusty but i'm back and throwing out models so keep it up, trial and error just take a few shots of it(front,side) thro it in paint and have a go and what you can come up with, make new flows and use them to make the model better, thats what i do... good luck

 

[sven-da-man]

I hardly "know everything" and I'm only "better" than most of the animators my age in the city I live in, seeing as I won the sweepstakes prize in a regional competition on character design.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5833/jdude2gz.jpg

not with something like this.Thats kinda hard to believe.
The reason i did not post anything to help you out, was cause it seemed like you were kinda full of yourself, thinking you created something good.
while it was ****.Even when people like ShadyD tried to help you.You barely listened.

Now for the help:

When i look at how your model currently is(and how bad the poly flow is)
Its hard for me to believe you have been modeling for 2 years.It
just seems you dont have the artistic eye for seeing something 3dimentional
in yr mind.You can train that tho,But if this took you 2 years to learn.I gotto say you have a long way to go dude.

 

[J-Dude]

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5833/jdude2gz.jpg

not with something like this.Thats kinda hard to believe.
The reason i did not post anything to help you out, was cause it seemed like you were kinda full of yourself, thinking you created something good.
while it was ****.Even when people like ShadyD tried to help you.You barely listened.

Now for the help:

When i look at how your model currently is(and how bad the poly flow is)
Its hard for me to believe you have been modeling for 2 years.It
just seems you dont have the artistic eye for seeing something 3dimentional
in yr mind.You can train that tho,But if this took you 2 years to learn.I gotto say you have a long way to go dude.

You know what buddy? Shut up...

I was never taught any edgeloop stuff, I never had any personal training outside my 3DS Max class in High School of which I was best in the class. Hell, I learned most of 3D Studio Max through the 3DS Max Bible. I never heard a word of planning ahead for a mesh to deform properly or whatever its supposed to do.

I learned from trial and error, I learned what stuff did and so I tried my hand at making characters. In my mind, if the end result looked like the thing you wanted to recreate, then you were doing it right. I had NOTHING and NOBODY to tell me otherwise.

That ref was one of my best attempts. I am NOT a 2D sketcher or animator, I can't DRAW. At best I can do basic UVW skins. That ref was something I was proud of when I first made it, obviously its no good in retrospect. I tried making the character for my class and I had to approximate a LOT because so many things didn't fit. I AM NO GOOD AT DRAWING. But even still, what I ended up with going off basic instinct was enough to win big at the expo. You weren't required to show wireframes, so I just gave some poses of it in a Photoshop colloage.

I beat those in my devision, and those in the OTHER devisions. So yeah, I won with the character. I dunno, maybe 3D Animation is rather lacking where I live and that's why I won, but I've got a year liscence prize copy of 3DS Max 8 sitting in one of my dresser droors to prove it as well as the judging paper.

Even still, I hardly am "full of myself". Yes, I thought the face mesh I've been showing in this thread was good. How dare I ?

At least give me credit for what I know. If I've never had a proper tutor for character creation then how can I be expected to do it the "right" way? I went by basic object creation techniques and that seemed to work, so what can I say? for God's sake, for 3/4 of a year my main modelling tool was GMAX, not MAX. I got Max later, and so, thinking I had modelling down, I explored the rest of Max's features I was itching to test out having read the 3DS Max Bible cover to cover. Once I learned how to do effects and use the other non-GMax features, I though I was well rounded.

My parents supported my ambition and I thought for once in my life that I had found something I loved to do, something I could do for the rest of my life, thought I'd found my niche. I still hope to be a poffessional 3D Animator one day and the training I'll receive at the "Art Institute" will hopefully secure this ambition. By the end I'll know all about edgeloops and have a set regiment of character creation processes and I'll look back at stuff I do now and groan and laugh.

You know what, I thought for a bit that ShadyD was just rocking the boat. Nobody else in the thread had said anything like that, and I thought if something like that had to be done, then someone would have mentioned it early in the creation process. Obviously that didn't happen. I thought he was the one guy who says "you suck, you're not worth anything, do it all over MY way".

I didn't ask for the kind of help your giving.

Its hard for me to believe you have been modeling for 2 years.It
just seems you dont have the artistic eye for seeing something 3dimentional
in yr mind.You can train that tho,But if this took you 2 years to learn.I gotto say you have a long way to go dude.

How you listed this under "help" is beyond me. This was just railing on me and my ability or lack therof. Your whole post was a cheap shot. I get it, my technique is wrong. I'm learning now. I'll be God-damned if it hasn't hapenned to you.

I'm already learning up on different video tutorials and preparing to make another go at it. You can save your flame-fest till I come up with something fresh.

To everyone else, thank you for at least shifting my path into the right direction. I'm starting fresh and I hope your all still here when I have something new to add to this topic.

 

[PiXel]

so much much text haha =) i love that!

although may start a new thread afterwards

although many professional animators used simply the bipped or either a highpoly well deform able mesh, you might show us some animations later, rly would be happy to see finaly some animations here again.

Dont get pissed off, im sure sven just wanted you to get up and trying to improve finaly and show us what you should be able to do

keep up!

 

[sven-da-man]

EDIT:

never mind..

 

[Ryeko]

J, I can why you are angry. People are insulting you but it's just CC. You can't take it seriously. You should have seen my first model. xD, Once It got it into UT2k4 it looked like, I don't even know.

But use their help. Sven is just trying to help you.

My Goku model that I tried to make, if you look it up, what they said. Yes it didn't make me feel good, but if it made me better, at modeleing, then I don't care.

 

[J-Dude]

J, I can why you are angry. People are insulting you but it's just CC. You can't take it seriously. You should have seen my first model. xD, Once It got it into UT2k4 it looked like, I don't even know.

But use their help. Sven is just trying to help you.

My Goku model that I tried to make, if you look it up, what they said. Yes it didn't make me feel good, but if it made me better, at modeleing, then I don't care.

I plan to use their help. I'm just more partial to "teacher/pupil" type criticism than "Simon Cowell" criticism.

Anyway, I know its been a WHOPPING day since my last post, but I've been researching the technique implemented by the founder of "poopinmymouth.com" and have come up with some surprisingly speedy results.

I'm trying to follow his steps properly, and seeing him do it in video is extremely helpful. I'm sure I have some trouble spots on the neck and where the legs will meet the torso, but otherwise I hope its a start.

Just thought I'd check with you all before going any further. At this point I can adjust things pretty easily. Go ahead, arm yourselves with your crits and fire away!

Keep in mind that the head, torso, legs and arms are not connected physically yet. I could do so, but most of those connections are delicate procedures which I won't dare touch until I'm sure the groundwork is properly "nailed down".

You'll also see that I have refs from both the original character, and of the body refs placed properly (I hope) layered over each other. This is because I cannot properly form a body with the original drawing which is clothed, and I trust that the proportions of the body-part drawings are more accurate. Keep in mind that I am following the body refs and not the character drawing. I apoligize if this layering makes it difficult to see.

 

[PiXel]

yeh btw. maybe dont try to post parts wich are not connected to the body, >_< its just me i gues, i hate that because.

 

[SA_Gohan]

Well you've still got that triangular head view as a problem, and the the way you've built the hips seems like its going to get complicated in the future.

A very fast and easy way I do the legs is taking an eight sided cylinder, slicing it at where I expect the bottom of the pelvis is, and extruding that area outwards the center and flattening it vertically so that its parallel to the vertical axis. Takes about 45 seconds for me to do, and gives me an excellent base to build upon.

If I wasn't so backed up on school work I'd post a piccy to help ;_;

 

[PiXel]

^^ just post on of your models as example
but even a 6 sided one does it, but not that 3 lines are infront as back, the otherway round.

 

[J-Dude]

Well you've still got that triangular head view as a problem, and the the way you've built the hips seems like its going to get complicated in the future.

A very fast and easy way I do the legs is taking an eight sided cylinder, slicing it at where I expect the bottom of the pelvis is, and extruding that area outwards the center and flattening it vertically so that its parallel to the vertical axis. Takes about 45 seconds for me to do, and gives me an excellent base to build upon.

If I wasn't so backed up on school work I'd post a piccy to help ;_;

Well, wouldn't be much problem to improve upon or even rebuild the legs at this point, the geometry is very basic. The main reason the head is looking triangular again is because I'm trying to match one of the edges to the eyebrow ridge, as described in his video tutorial. As you can see, the eyebrow ridge goes back rather far on the head, thus making it "pointy" instead of rounded.

I'm trying to figure a way around that. Its proving a bit confusing. I have a feeling its a flaw with the ref, no offense to the "original" artist DavidSkiwan. Oh, and I almost forgot. Part of the reason the head is forming a point is because one of the basic starting vertices are supposed to form the very tip of the nose.

There are no additional defining vertices as of yet to seperate the nose from the main face, so it IS forming an unnatural point. Later, when I begin adding facial detail (once I learn how to add edgeloops properly) I'll be able to seperate the nose and hopefully round the face out to correct proportions. One of the vertices is already there to form a preliminary "cheekbone" to help with rounding. These small yet essential landmarks in structure and not detail should hopefully form a desirable base.

I must say this creation method is quite easy and effective =) . I never would have dreamed that a box would make such an efficient base for a humanoid head. Creating most of the body was easy, mostly things just fell together. I'm glad I followed his advice on the back of the torso having a steeper slope than the more rounded front. It already looks to be much better and much more accurate than my original body design, though I still used the same bodily refs.

Well, I guess I AM a bit more learned now than when I first made the original body.

I'm concerned about the placement of the shoulders, neck and clavicle though. It was rough matching it the the ref from both sides, and I'm almsot sure I did somethinggn wrong in the details of the neck. Glad I discovered the "connect" tool for edges. Its much more efficient than cut.

Well anyway, haven't heard from the rest of you. I'll wait until I have hear from a few more of you before I continue. Wouldn't want to make any undue mistakes this early in the game.