What are the Goals of Occupy Wall Street?

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Communism can't work because it requires a hive mentality to function. Humans rarely operate in that capacity, and as such, pure capitalism would still be far more effective than communism ever could because it exploits baser human emotions. I don't understand the point of referencing a failed system whenever something even remotely related pops up.
 
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Cause capitalism and communism are both failed systems.

You dont need a hive mentality for communism to work, just the people at the top must not be corrupt since. The same requirement for any system to work. A corrupt capitalistic government is pretty similar to a communistic one. And really close to a dictatorship of the leading class.

Again one side tells you to go **** yourself, the other does the same without you really knowing it. But both of them would be happiest with mindless slaves as their subjects. But in the end you are still just being screwd by the leading class if you are not have the misfortune to step on the wrong toes.

I guess what im trying to say is they are both equally as bad and its time to start thinking of something that doesnt "work barely" and think of something that actually works well instead of this leftist, rightist puppet show thats going on all over the world before we are neck deep in another frigging world war.
 
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How is capitalism a failed economic system? It's responsible for the wealthiest and most powerful nation this planet has ever seen, and is being adopted by the nation that may very well take the former's place as the global superpower. That sounds, smells and looks like success to me.

You need a hive mentality for communism to work because everyone needs to want to work to support everyone else. What you do is for the greater good, that being the community, and everything you do is to that end. If you have benevolent leaders, the system still won't work so long as capitalistic nations that reward hard work and mastery of your profession exist. They'll compare what little they currently have to what they could have, and they'll leave the hive and head for a place where they can get theirs.

Capitalism isn't a government system, and neither is communism. They are economic systems that may be adopted by forms of government, and altered to suit their needs. A malevolent dictator is going to **** **** up, regardless of the type of economic system used. Any kind of corrupt government will inevitably **** its people. That's why they're labelled corrupt.

Capitalism doesn't tell you to go **** yourself. It tells you your work and effort is worth something, and if someone isn't willing to give you what you're worth, you can find someone who can. Communism tells you that as good as you are, you're part of a whole and everyone will reap the benefits of your labor. If everyone receives equal parts, no one has more or is richer than anyone else, and so your level of comfort is determined by population size and how much you're producing.

I'm not even really sure what you're talking about anymore.
 
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How is capitalism a failed economic system? It's responsible for the wealthiest and most powerful nation this planet has ever seen, and is being adopted by the nation that may very well take the former's place as the global superpower. That sounds, smells and looks like success to me.
If everyone in America's so wealthy, I don't see what people are protesting about all over the country.


Communism tells you that as good as you are, you're part of a whole and everyone will reap the benefits of your labor. If everyone receives equal parts, no one has more or is richer than anyone else, and so your level of comfort is determined by population size and how much you're producing.
And then on the other side, you have capitalism, where, as I said before, someone is stuck to being poor or middle class no matter how hard they try, yet those who are born rich, stay rich, simply because they're rich. And the differences between the poor and the rich are enormous, and growing every day.

What we need is something else. Obviously, you can't have some lazy bum living off your hard work, which the idea of communism would allow. But it's also wrong that some people have so much, and a much larger number of others, so little. Let's face it, not everyone is given the same chance. In a socialistic community, you might not have enough to be considered wealthy by today's capitalism standards, but you could still have plenty to survive and indulge to a certain limit, providing you worked hard enough for your education.

Now, in capitalism, without a certain amount of money, you can't even get your kids through education, there are books to buy, and dozens of other expenses. Not to mention how much college costs if you can't get a scholarship. A poor kid can work really hard to get his scholarship and still not be able to get it, because with the growing number of people who can't afford their kids' education, not only in America, but all over the world, there is only so much room for kids with scholarships. On the other hand, a rich kid will have no problems with that, his/her daddy will just pay for it, and probably later get them a high-paying job with a good position, because in capitalism, money is power. You have money, you get anything you want. No money, you're ****ed (not neccesarilly, but it usually ends up like that.).
 
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If everyone in America's so wealthy, I don't see what people are protesting about all over the country.
Really? A nation's total wealth isn't calculated per head. 1 rich man and 9 poor people may still have more money than 10 people with average income. Also, I don't think you fully understand capitalism, communism, or even socialism, judging from your post. It's not as simple as you make it look.
 
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How is capitalism a failed economic system? It's responsible for the wealthiest and most powerful nation this planet has ever seen, and is being adopted by the nation that may very well take the former's place as the global superpower. That sounds, smells and looks like success to me.
No. Controlled capitalism is responsible for that. Capitalism by itself is a failed system that would lead to nothing more than constant backstabbing, sabotage and elimination of opposition. Not even America supports total capitalism. Thats why there are restrictions on monopoly.

Total capitalism would lead to a scientific standstill until all resources were depleted, because any form of competition would be eliminated by the ones controlling the entire market share.

Capitalism as a financial system is being abused everywhere in the world and slowly the people are getting enough. Protests are spreading like wild fire and its only going to get worse. Thats where the government comes in. Setting the correct limitations. Now America may have had that in the past, but slowly those limitations are being changed towards the favor of corporations instead of the general population. And its not just America its the entire world. Cutting manufacturing costs by exploiting people in third world countries pretty much promoting slavery.

And all while companies are moving to cheaper work force locations the locals are getting ignored lowering the living standard of the lower classes all the while keeping a general average because the higher classes earn so much more that the average doesnt really change.

People are starting to rebel against such a system and governments that allow it to go on. Movements like this are a perfect example of that.
 
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Really? A nation's total wealth isn't calculated per head. 1 rich man and 9 poor people may still have more money than 10 people with average income. Also, I don't think you fully understand capitalism, communism, or even socialism, judging from your post. It's not as simple as you make it look.
That's exactly the case. And that's wrong. Thanks to capitalism, America may be the richest nation in the world, but that doesn't mean capitalism is good, because that wealth is very unequally distributed.

Also, think what you want to. I think I understand enough to make my point here.
 
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If everyone in America's so wealthy, I don't see what people are protesting about all over the country.



And then on the other side, you have capitalism, where, as I said before, someone is stuck to being poor or middle class no matter how hard they try, yet those who are born rich, stay rich, simply because they're rich. And the differences between the poor and the rich are enormous, and growing every day.

What we need is something else. Obviously, you can't have some lazy bum living off your hard work, which the idea of communism would allow. But it's also wrong that some people have so much, and a much larger number of others, so little. Let's face it, not everyone is given the same chance. In a socialistic community, you might not have enough to be considered wealthy by today's capitalism standards, but you could still have plenty to survive and indulge to a certain limit, providing you worked hard enough for your education.

Now, in capitalism, without a certain amount of money, you can't even get your kids through education, there are books to buy, and dozens of other expenses. Not to mention how much college costs if you can't get a scholarship. A poor kid can work really hard to get his scholarship and still not be able to get it, because with the growing number of people who can't afford their kids' education, not only in America, but all over the world, there is only so much room for kids with scholarships. On the other hand, a rich kid will have no problems with that, his/her daddy will just pay for it, and probably later get them a high-paying job with a good position, because in capitalism, money is power. You have money, you get anything you want. No money, you're ****ed (not neccesarilly, but it usually ends up like that.).
And when America was at its best economically, was it in spite of capitalism or because of it? What you're referring to isn't so much a flaw with the economic system as it is a flaw within the government itself. It's like arguing whether the gun or the person wielding it is responsible for murder. We have a tool to accomplish a goal, and it's being used in a way that benefits few, rather than all. Like a gun, it can be used for what may be considered good, and what may be considered bad.

Once more, what you're describing isn't so much capitalism's flaw as you are government's flaw. Why is the disparity between the rich and the poor so great? For several reasons. Deregulation, government support of corporations over people, and the population's unwillingness to do anything about it. The last is the greatest issue, as the populace could solve all of its problems in a day if it wanted to. It does not. You can ***** and moan all you like, but what have you done to change the laws? What has anyone done? Protest? That's great. But it doesn't change who is in power. And when you keep voting from the same pool of candidates, you can't really blame anyone but yourself for experiencing similar results time and again.

Really? That's interesting. Public school is free, so that takes care of you until college. After that, you can quite literally get grants for just about everything under the Sun. Most people don't bother looking any of them up because it requires more effort than signing your life away, but they're there. Personally, I chose the military. If I wanted to continue my education, I'd be completely covered. A poor kid can and will get at least a portion of his education expenses paid for if his gpa is up to par. I've seen it happen more often than not, because I am not from an even moderately wealthy family. I was quite poor once upon a time. Where there's a will, there's a way. The issue is one shouldn't have to jump through so many hoops to gain access to education. That isn't a fault of capitalism. That's a failure of a broken education system.

I don't know where you're from, but the US is still very much the land of opportunity provided you work hard enough. I hate to say it, but most of my country doesn't really know what work is.

@Grega: What nation are you referring to when you describe "total capitalism" as being a failure? Capitalism has always been a framework, and various nations have added their own twist to it. That's how economic systems work. The same is true of communism and "RED SCARE COMMUNISM". In pure capitalism, scientific achievement wouldn't simply halt, because in true capitalism, every company and corporation would be trying to outdo the other. It's only when you add socialistic tendencies to the mix where corporations and coddled and taken care of that they no longer feel the need to compete. When you add all of the red tape, you're going to get a corrupt system because people are always trying to exploit the flaws in a set system.

Capitalism is being abused, which means it isn't inherently a bad system. Otherwise it wouldn't be abuse. This means it works until you no longer let it. Protests are spreading like wildfire, not because of capitalism, but because of the divide that's always existed between the rich and the poor. When has this not been the case? Capitalism didn't always exist. This duality has. The rich try to get richer, and the only way to do that is to take from everyone else, creating an ever growing disparity of wealth between the few and the many. Again, the capitalism part isn't the problem. Fascism in the way of corporate control of the government is. Huge difference.

To me, it sounds like you guys don't understand why everyone is so furious, and so you're scapegoating everything under the Sun.

@Halion again: Is the distribution of wealth a problem with capitalism or a problem with government? If capitalism were to be thrown away, would the rich no longer exist?
 
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I said my favourite, not most important. :p

In your opinion, are there any current presidential candidates that you think can turn things around, or do you think the entire system needs to change first?
I think there are a mix of going to do something and going to protect the status quo people in the current mix. Praetor is right Bachmann would change things, I'm just not entirely sure she's presidential cloth. Nor do I necessarily believe that her change will be good. Its the same thing as Obama in completely the opposite direction. I didn't like his brand of change either. I think Perry, Romney and Gingrich offer more of the same. I think Cain might change things a little, but he says things that have me worried. The flip side to that is that he has publicly stated that he doesn't know when he doesn't know, then he goes and learns about it before talking about it again. I can handle that kind of humility in a president, and its something our last 10 presidents didn't have. I think Ron Paul is another Bachmann case, he will change things drastically, but not everyone is going to like those changes. The rest are zero important.

Obama is treading dangerous water with bypassing congress on things, there are limits to what he can do, and hopefully he's staying inside them. The bottom line is that real, lasting, change will have to come from Congress. From that perspective, Bachmann and Paul should stay in congress.
 
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Cucumba: Bachman is bat**** crazy. How about your party bringing someone sane into the running? That's really all people want from conservatives and teapartyers alike. Sanity.
 
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Cucumba: Bachman is bat**** crazy. How about your party bringing someone sane into the running? That's really all people want from conservatives and teapartyers alike. Sanity.
 
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And when America was at its best economically, was it in spite of capitalism or because of it? What you're referring to isn't so much a flaw with the economic system as it is a flaw within the government itself. It's like arguing whether the gun or the person wielding it is responsible for murder. We have a tool to accomplish a goal, and it's being used in a way that benefits few, rather than all. Like a gun, it can be used for what may be considered good, and what may be considered bad.
As can any economic system, but give capitalism to people and this is what happens. If it's kept, no matter what you do with the government now, sooner or later it'll be like this again. Because it encourages that you earn more, and more.

Think of it this way. Your and your neighbour each open up a grocery shop. Your business is going better than his. Soon, you save up enough money to open up another grocery shop. And then another. Your neighbour still has only one shop, but he's doing okay, he has more than enough to survive. Meanwhile, your business is doing even better and you build a supermarket. Even more money. Your neighbour's not doing any better, and some of his regular customers have begun going to your shops, decreasing his income.

Your wealth flourishes even more and you open up several more supermarkets, and then a mall. You already have enough money to clothe your children AND your grandchildren and get them through college (that's not saying you haven't earned all this), but your neighbour closes down his shop because there's just no more business with all the superior and probably cheaper supermarkets sprouting around. Also, no one can even open new shops, there wouldn't be a point because people don't need them.

This is how corporations are born. And then, people like your neighbour, since their business has failed, have no choice but to ultimately seek employment in one of these corporations, often for little pay. All because someone wasn't satisfied with simply owning a shop, or two, or three, and profiting from that. Now, this is a bit vague, but it's what it all boils down to. Am I blaming capitalism alone? No. But this is what happens when it's given to people. It's perfectly compatible with our nature, but then again, our nature isn't all that grand either, now is it?

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Why is the disparity between the rich and the poor so great? For several reasons. Deregulation, government support of corporations over people, and the population's unwillingness to do anything about it. The last is the greatest issue, as the populace could solve all of its problems in a day if it wanted to. It does not. You can ***** and moan all you like, but what have you done to change the laws? What has anyone done? Protest? That's great. But it doesn't change who is in power. And when you keep voting from the same pool of candidates, you can't really blame anyone but yourself for experiencing similar results time and again.
I agree. Protesting alone solves nothing. What we need is a big ol' coup d'etat. Destroy everything, bring everything down and rebuild it better than before. Maybe this time around, people will actually realize that they need to work together, instead of against each other.

The issue is one shouldn't have to jump through so many hoops to gain access to education. That isn't a fault of capitalism. That's a failure of a broken education system.
I agree again. But the way things are now, even the education system is in favour of the rich. And the rich are rich because of capitalism. It has allowed them to take a position where they're nice and secure no matter what, while no one gives a damn about the poor.


@Halion again: Is the distribution of wealth a problem with capitalism or a problem with government? If capitalism were to be thrown away, would the rich no longer exist?
If it were replaced with communism, yes. But that's not the answer. It needs, at least in my opinion, to be replaced with something where the rich cannot have so much, while the poor have so little. I sound like a broken record already, but that's how it is.

Again, yes, the problem exists because the government abuses capitalism. But it's more of a problem of society than of the government. Like any idea, it can be used for good and bad, that's common sense.And it's simply human to abuse good ideas.

Example: Omegle was a brilliant idea for people to meet, exchange completely honest opinions, or just have an ordinary chat, and yet somehow I feel that 80% of the time, it's used for cybersex and guys jacking off at their webcams.

Early christianity had some pretty good ideas about how things should be, and yet, less than a thousand years later, women are being burned at the stake for having blue eyes and red hair.


This will keep happening, it's just how we are. Again, what we need is a system that's NOT that easily abusable. It's like giving scissors to a 2 year-old; you can do it, but if it pokes its blasted eye out, you're ******* responsible.
 
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Cucumba: Bachman is bat**** crazy. How about your party bringing someone sane into the running? That's really all people want from conservatives and teapartyers alike. Sanity.
And with this, I exit the thread. That didn't take too long.
 
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As can any economic system, but give capitalism to people and this is what happens. If it's kept, no matter what you do with the government now, sooner or later it'll be like this again. Because it encourages that you earn more, and more.

Give any economic system to people and some will have more than others. What people are working for isn't material goods, but the guarantee that their lineage, their bloodline, will thrive in the future. This is no different than a single virile male impregnating as many women as he can get his hands on, decreasing competition for him and his in the long term. So long as his genes are passed on, he is doing as he was programmed to do by thousands of years of evolution. Capitalism is an extension of that need.

You can't say that the outcome will remain the same in the hands of all governments, with the only constant being capitalism. What I can state, however, is give any economic system to any government, and given time, that government will suffer the same illnesses of every other government in human history. The economic system doesn't matter, because in the end, those we've placed into positions of authority begin to believe they are, in fact, above the people they rule. Once that perception has been cemented in the minds of the people, those of the lower ranks strive to become a member of the higher ranks, because they, too, believe those with power rule over those without.


Think of it this way. Your and your neighbour each open up a grocery shop. Your business is going better than his. Soon, you save up enough money to open up another grocery shop. And then another. Your neighbour still has only one shop, but he's doing okay, he has more than enough to survive. Meanwhile, your business is doing even better and you build a supermarket. Even more money. Your neighbour's not doing any better, and some of his regular customers have begun going to your shops, decreasing his income.

Your wealth flourishes even more and you open up several more supermarkets, and then a mall. You already have enough money to clothe your children AND your grandchildren and get them through college (that's not saying you haven't earned all this), but your neighbour closes down his shop because there's just no more business with all the superior and probably cheaper supermarkets sprouting around. Also, no one can even open new shops, there wouldn't be a point because people don't need them.

This is how corporations are born. And then, people like your neighbour, since their business has failed, have no choice but to ultimately seek employment in one of these corporations, often for little pay. All because someone wasn't satisfied with simply owning a shop, or two, or three, and profiting from that. Now, this is a bit vague, but it's what it all boils down to. Am I blaming capitalism alone? No. But this is what happens when it's given to people. It's perfectly compatible with our nature, but then again, our nature isn't all that grand either, now is it?

I'm not sure what your point was with this. Are you saying corporations are inherently bad? Are you saying the man who owned the store and had no ambition should not be punished while the man with far bigger dreams should be held back? Capitalism breeds competition. To think that we should stop competing is a defeatist attitude, and frankly, it pervades the western world to the point where everyone seems to think they should be handed everything. My problem isn't with people making millions of dollars through their hard work and effort. My problem is with people who make that kind of money by exploiting the system in place, be it through tax evasion, loop holes or what have you. This is an important distinction because, remember, once upon a time capitalism did work. It was only through certain forms of backward government intervention that made it possible for corporate personhood to exist.

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I agree. Protesting alone solves nothing. What we need is a big ol' coup d'etat. Destroy everything, bring everything down and rebuild it better than before. Maybe this time around, people will actually realize that they need to work together, instead of against each other.

Do we, now? And will you be on the front lines, taking lives and giving yours? Everyone talks of war but very few understand it. And make no mistake, you are speaking of war. If the only route you can think to take is that of bloodshed, rest assured that what becomes of you will not be so different as what has happened to every class of warfighter once the war is won or lost. You will be discarded, because you are a relic of the past. We dare not risk infecting our new society with the poison that flows through your veins.

I agree again. But the way things are now, even the education system is in favour of the rich. And the rich are rich because of capitalism. It has allowed them to take a position where they're nice and secure no matter what, while no one gives a damn about the poor.

Everything is in favor of the rich, because money is a means to an end. So long as there exists an economic system of sorts, there will be a form of currency, and some will have more than others, fewer still will have more than most. You are completely missing the point, however. The rich are rich partly because of capitalism, but mostly because it is possible to avoid all forms of tax, because it is possible to buy favor with the ruling class, because corporations have the same rights as people, etc. These are the result of poor governing, not the logical endpoint to our particular economic system. This isn't a one point issue. There is so much you have yet to even mention, much less consider, that tie into this.

If it were replaced with communism, yes. But that's not the answer. It needs, at least in my opinion, to be replaced with something where the rich cannot have so much, while the poor have so little. I sound like a broken record already, but that's how it is.

There is no such system in existence.

Again, yes, the problem exists because the government abuses capitalism. But it's more of a problem of society than of the government. Like any idea, it can be used for good and bad, that's common sense.And it's simply human to abuse good ideas.

Society determines who governs and how. The two are intertwined. What you've stated makes it fairly clear you can't pass the blame to capitalism and call it a day.

Example: Omegle was a brilliant idea for people to meet, exchange completely honest opinions, or just have an ordinary chat, and yet somehow I feel that 80% of the time, it's used for cybersex and guys jacking off at their webcams.

Early christianity had some pretty good ideas about how things should be, and yet, less than a thousand years later, women are being burned at the stake for having blue eyes and red hair.

Again, what you're stating is people are the problem. Unless you intend to solve people, this isn't going anywhere.


This will keep happening, it's just how we are. Again, what we need is a system that's NOT that easily abusable. It's like giving scissors to a 2 year-old; you can do it, but if it pokes its blasted eye out, you're ******* responsible.

In the States, our system was not originally easily abusable. The scales were actually quite balanced. Where there is a will, there is a way. That goes for exploitation of a system as much as it does for wanting a hunky dory rainbow sunshine world. It took many, many years of bribing and policy changes to finally get this bad. Time is not on our side.
Words.
 
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No, but seriously, what is up with conservatives and teapartyers bringing out the craziest freaking candidates? I'm sure that there have to be a few presentable candidates for moderates to adhere to out there.
 
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No, but seriously, what is up with conservatives and teapartyers bringing out the craziest freaking candidates? I'm sure that there have to be a few presentable candidates for moderates to adhere to out there.
You say that like the left doesn't have crazy candidates. Dennis Kuchinich is not as bat**** crazy how? Also, there are, by my count, three such moderate candidates. One the left-leaning center simply doesn't like, one that used to work for Obama (goes over well in right wing country) and one that made the basis for Obamacare.

Shall we go over the left's candidates from 2008? The one who cheated on his terminally ill wife and spent campaign money to silence his mistress? How about the one who believed he was abducted by a UFO? Oh, how about the one that was planning on riding her husbands popularity? That's not including the ones that decided not to run in the primary.

All candidates have problems, and if you can look at the left or right and say they are automatically better than the other side, you are being intellectually dishonest.
 
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I just had an aneurysm.
 
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I'm not talking about the left side at all. I'm saying the conservatives would fare better if they boosted their moderates, as would the tea partyers. The left side has Obama, and I doubt he'll be replaced by the Democrats.

I actually like the guy who used to work for Obama, he seemed like a relatively reasonable guy. All politicians should be able to compromise for the good of their country.
 
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Zeo i agree with competition. And to twist Hailons example into my own.

You open a shop and gain access over the market in your area. Then your neighbor opens a shop to. Capitalism is survival of the fittest and not regulating it would mean the following. Lets say your neighbor is providing the same service at a lower price so you start loosing your market share. Now with 100% capitalism you would want to retain your earnings instead of getting less if you drop your prices. But since you already own the market you simply decide to use force to get your neighbor out of business so that you dont need to drop your profits by dropping prices.

Capitalism by itself pretty much works like that. Corporate espionage, sabotage and pretty much your regular mafia stuff in order to stay ahead once you reach the biggest market share. Thats where governments come in. Now though the last hundred years governments began slowly siding with the major market holders and slowly giving them more and more power to legaly destroy any upcoming competition.

For example look at Disney. They were one of the biggest pushers for extending the copyright duration from the initial 25 years (which is enough to regain the funds spend on R&D and production) and the current result is what a life time + 75 years. Ofcourse they only pushed that AFTER they used already existing ideas that just went over that 25 year copyright limit.

And thats what i mean with capiralism is a failed system without proper regulation. Thats the middle ground im talking about. And ATM its swaying towards giving corporations more and more freedom so that they can increase their already big shares instead of letting new ones rise and present a competition.
 
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John Huntsman is the most moderate of the bunch and the least crazy, but he's got no chance in Hell.

Mitt Romney is a more likely win, and a bit less dangerous given his position shifts with the wind.

Michelle Bachmaan is a creepy as Hell uber-Christian who claims to have been asked by the Abrahamic god to run for president, which in my book means she's either insane or an outright liar. Her husband runs a "save gays for Jesus" clinic, which in itself would say something about her character, except she's gone on record saying as a good Christian wife (read: personally property to her husband) she'd exercise obedience and highly consider his input, so if you vote for her, you vote for THAT ******* too. Avoid avoid avoid.

Rick Santorum is just plain ******* evil. A man who is so consumed with hatred for the gay community that he's gone on record saying he would die to prevent them marrying. **** this guy.

Herman Caine...let's just forget for a moment how ironic it would be for the religious right to vote in a man whose last name is the name of the Bible's first human murderer. This guy is almost certainly a plant, a political practical joke. A man who in one breath supports and in another condemns the Arab Spring. A man who once quoted a song from "Pokemon The Movie 2000", and then made an infamous flat-tax plan with suspicious similarities to the default tax rate in Sim City. Regardless of whether he did in fact GET that from Sim City, applying the flat tax demonstrates a clear failure to comprehend that nine per-cent means a lot more to someone poor than to someone wealthy. If he's not a plant, then he's just plain nutty. The fact that he's the front-runner of the GOP at present is probably great news for Obama.

Rick Perry...need I say more? Governor of Texas who can't stop shoehorning his religious madness into his political decisions. A man who sanctioned a day of prayer and advised that people pray for rain. Content to stop running anything himself and just let the whim of the uncaring Universe do whatever it wants in his absence. He even, in a move both unconstitutional and (by the Bible's own standards) hypocritical, organized a state-funded public prayer rally. Yes, on the dime of the taxpayer. I wouldn't trust this guy to run my local ice-cream parlor.

Voting Ron Paul was once an Internet meme, and I can't imagine his chances are much improved, but that's beside the point. I don't know what to make of him, really. He's often polarized against the other candidates, and in the case of his attitude towards cutting defense-spending, I support that. Otherwise, I don't see myself voting for someone who opposes the separation of church and state.

You can make all manner of arguments for these people in the economic sense, but it really doesn't matter to me since their principles are outright repugnant. I don't much like Obama anymore, with his soft action and his tendency to see compromise as a goal in and of itself. I'd rather see a Democratic candidate who stands strong for a liberal and secular America. In the absence of that, I'll vote for Obama, because he's by far the lesser of several evils scrambling for his seat.
 

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