What are the Goals of Occupy Wall Street?

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Politics and economics have always baffled me, and while I've gathered both through principal and the quality of the arguments I see that the Liberal side of things is the way to go, or at least, ANYTHING not associated with the religious right, I find it almost impossible to defend myself. My brain is a sieve when economics and politics enter the matter, and Occupy Wall Street is a doozy.

I want to say that I support these people. I THINK I support these people. I know it's happening in other, quote-unquote, "smart nations" in Europe and otherwise. I know Fox News does whatever they can to discredit these people, so THAT gives me a pretty good clue that these guys are threatening some rich-man status quos, but damn it all if I can defend my position to anyone when I say that I support OWS. I mean, what can I say when I'm not even 100% sure what the precise goals and demands are? Even on the supposed official SITE, they seemed to suggest that they'd get 20,000 people in Wall Street...so they could then unify to find a reason to Occupy Wall Street...

It doesn't help a "for" argument, y'know?

So what's the real deal here? Is the 99% a flag of freedom to wave in the faces of the corrupt?

Or are they the angry, unwashed masses, who some would say "got what was coming to them by not living within their means, and demanding a bailout for the student loans and unworkable home-loans THEY saddled themselves with, blaming the rich people who were just smart mother****ers who innovated and were rewarded. I mean, who's GIVING them their jobs? That's right! What if they (millionaires) one day just quit and left them jobless? THEN what would those freeloaders do? So you think the corporations hardly pay any taxes huh? So why did they all move out of California then?"

...

Yeah, sorry about that. That's an example of the sorta' stuff I hear. Watch out when you hint that you support something to some people...

But I know, I know, why am I supporting something if I can't justify it? Isn't that so ignorant of you? Yahdee yahdee yah... Look, I want to believe in people; I don't want to believe the rich people are the good guys and that the poor people all deserve it. At the same time I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few UNtrue things as possible. So I ask this desiring no sugar-coating. If you think my desired position is wrong, tell me so and why. If you're right, I'll change my opinion. All the same, I think this thread might prove useful to others similarly baffled by the shadow-dance of economics and politics.
 
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I thought occupy WS was due to the incredible lack of responsibility taken by WS brokers after breaking the US economy and costing millions of people their jobs?
 
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With economics its like that.

If you want a system thats fair for everyone use communism. If you want a system that can actually work with human nature, then choose capitalism.

Add people and time to either of the 2 and you get a corrupt system where there is 1 leading party (even if the capitalistic party is called a class) but its still 1 leading unit of people and the rest can go **** themselves. To much one way or another is bad the tricky part is finding a good balance of the 2. Off course thats nearly impossible because people are greedy bastards by nature and when given enough power and some time tasting that power they always reveal that nature.

Your example with Fox News is also only half valid. On one side you have leftist stations that discredit the rightists and on the other side you have the rightist stations that discredit the leftists. Its all a ploy to get people to listen to either one side or the other and think as little as possible for themselves.

Remember both communism and capitalism need only a few bright people and the rest of the population should be laborers in order to function. Communists pretty much force it down your throat and capitalists give you false hope in order to get you to work. But the result of opposition is the same on both sides. Communism will get you a firing squad and capitalism will get you an economical collapse. Either way you are screwed.

I personally am leaning towards the communistic side as its described on paper, not the kind that was practiced in countries. But the notion that all people are equal is easily exploitable and human nature kinda makes us exploit what we can.

Personally a computer program could probably do a better job of leading the world than any human can simply because it will stay true to the principles it was made with, instead of changing them to suit its needs.
 
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If you want a system thats fair for everyone use communism. If you want a system that can actually work with human nature, then choose capitalism.
This is a stupid statement because it assumes that these are the only options. It's also unrelated to the subject at hand, because neither pure capitalism nor pure communism are involved in this at all.

Politics are not black and white, or shades of grey. They are a full colour spectrum. Simplifying politics does not aid in the debate.
 
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Again, I believe it's all got to do with one thing. Greed.

It's horrifying when you see how much some people have, and how little others have. I don't know if any of you has ever been to Brazil, but that's the finest example. One street, one side, luxurious homes, swimming pools, personal gyms etc. etc., while people on the other side live in old houses, I don't even know if they have heating or electricity.

And it shouldn't be that way. The rich simply have too much, and the way it's now, they're just getting more and more. And they don't need that much. They can still live the lifestyle they're used to even without that much money. Most of them, anyways. If they would only share a minimum of their income with the poor, it would be more than enough to improve their lifestyle.

For example, if I give 5€ to some homeless guy, and I earn 1500 € a month, that's 0.3% of my earnings. Which is nothing for me, but it's enough for him to get some food and water. If some billionaire would give up 0.3% of his wealth, assuming his wealth is worth 1 billion euros, that's more than 3 million euros.. Now tell me, does ANYONE on this forum possess that kind of money? How much would you have to work for that kind of money? And what's that to the billionaire? Also nothing.

If someone's a millionaire, then it's 30,000 €. That, also, is not a small number to someone that would call himself poor. And so on, and so on, you see my point. Basically, without compromising their wealth AT ALL, the wealthy can help a lot of people out. But they won't. They feel no need to, and they're even afraid to. Afraid that if they keep giving away, they'll end up poor. And that is understandable, but it's wrong.

And I understand where J-Dude is coming from, that some people are responsible for their own poverty. But what of their children? This may not be the case in America or any other 'advanced' country, but there are many places in the world where poverty means you can't get your child through school. No school, no job. No job, no money. And how can you then say that the child is at fault?

But again, as Grega said, it's all human nature. We've developed this individualistic mentality where the most important thing is yourself and the people close to you. We don't realize that we could be so, so much more, in a society where we cast away greed (as much as possible) and look at ourselves as a unit of a greater group. And that doesn't mean losing your individuality. There is much more to us all than what we own, isn't there?

This all sounds very utopic, but I believe that it can be done. The moment when man realizes that he is more than an individual, is the moment when we're all saved. From ourselves.
 
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This is a stupid statement because it assumes that these are the only options. It's also unrelated to the subject at hand, because neither pure capitalism nor pure communism are involved in this at all.

Politics are not black and white, or shades of grey. They are a full colour spectrum. Simplifying politics does not aid in the debate.
And im talking in extremes. I did mention that when i said that finding the middle ground is the tricky part. Or did you by chance not read my post.

But what of their children? This may not be the case in America or any other 'advanced' country, but there are many places in the world where poverty means you can't get your child through school. No school, no job. No job, no money. And how can you then say that the child is at fault?
You say that as if America secures the future of everyone equally where in reality if your parents are loaded you can be anything you want to be, but if they arnt, you are focusing on finding schools you can actually afford to join. And if you cant scrape up the cash for that you only continue the family poverty because you cant pay for the higher education.

Now i know not all schools are private and there is stuff like scholarships but its a lot tougher some times impossible to achieve something if you come from a poor family rather than from a family with a better financial backing.
 
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Nope, not getting into this one.
 
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I'm genuinely interested in how you feel about the whole Occupy movement, Cuc.
 
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If you tell us, I promise not to call you a hillbilly racist. :p
 
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My general feeling of the occupy movement is not a good one, there is a lot of negative energy at their events. These people are angry as a whole, different angry from the Tea Party. That said, there has never been a violent tea party rally, but there have already been clashes with police in Occupy.

When I look at the groups that make up the Occupy movement, I can see that making broad generalizations, like the ones made regarding the tea party, are not a good idea. Both groups, whether you believe so or not, are diverse. Occupy is full of liberals, libertarians, peacenicks, anarchists, neo-nazis, socialists and people who think the people in power should go. Note that they are even turning on the leftist 1%, which actually makes me chuckle. Michael Moore has been called out for not using his $50 million to support these people by the people at an occupy event, awesome. Especially after Piers Morgan called him out on being a 1%er.

That said, I think some elements of Occupy and the Tea Party actually agree on something, which is one step better than what our government is doing. People in power are doing business as usual and ignoring the good of the country. They disagree on how it should be done, but that one common thread is a start.

#occupy is disorganized and undisciplined, but they are being heard and doing something with their rights. From that perspective I support it.

The groups involving themselves in occupy make my ass twitch though, ACORN, AFL-CIO, SEIU, Nazi Party, Socialist Party, Lisa Fithian (she organized the riots at the WTO meeting a few years back). None of these people want the 99% to prosper, they are just looking to prosper politically. Same can be said of Republicans ingratiating themselves with the Tea Party movement. I don't like that either, and do everything I can to keep republicans out of my Tea.
 
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It's now becoming Occupy the globe, these protests are spreading and now you can watch it in the very comfort of your own home...

How? LIVESTREAM

Tune into: www.occupystream.com , you can debate all you want about which system should prosper in the live chat(although i highly recommend you don't ask for communism) and whatever the hell these usual economists blab about.

As for my opinion, i don't give a rats ass about the monetary system, I just want it to burn...

Who understands me?
 
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My general feeling of the occupy movement is not a good one, there is a lot of negative energy at their events. These people are angry as a whole, different angry from the Tea Party. That said, there has never been a violent tea party rally, but there have already been clashes with police in Occupy.

When I look at the groups that make up the Occupy movement, I can see that making broad generalizations, like the ones made regarding the tea party, are not a good idea. Both groups, whether you believe so or not, are diverse. Occupy is full of liberals, libertarians, peacenicks, anarchists, neo-nazis, socialists and people who think the people in power should go. Note that they are even turning on the leftist 1%, which actually makes me chuckle. Michael Moore has been called out for not using his $50 million to support these people by the people at an occupy event, awesome. Especially after Piers Morgan called him out on being a 1%er.

That said, I think some elements of Occupy and the Tea Party actually agree on something, which is one step better than what our government is doing. People in power are doing business as usual and ignoring the good of the country. They disagree on how it should be done, but that one common thread is a start.

#occupy is disorganized and undisciplined, but they are being heard and doing something with their rights. From that perspective I support it.


The groups involving themselves in occupy make my ass twitch though, ACORN, AFL-CIO, SEIU, Nazi Party, Socialist Party, Lisa Fithian (she organized the riots at the WTO meeting a few years back). None of these people want the 99% to prosper, they are just looking to prosper politically. Same can be said of Republicans ingratiating themselves with the Tea Party movement. I don't like that either, and do everything I can to keep republicans out of my Tea.
Good read, thank you. Bolded my favourite part.
 
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Good read, thank you. Bolded my favourite part.
What was real important from my perspective included the sentance before the bold.
 
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I said my favourite, not most important. :p

In your opinion, are there any current presidential candidates that you think can turn things around, or do you think the entire system needs to change first?
 
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Charles Manson hasn't thrown his hat into the ring yet, but he's my favorite for President right now. Out of those actually running, Bachmann is who we need to bring about real change in this nation.
 
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Charles Manson hasn't thrown his hat into the ring yet, but he's my favorite for President right now. Out of those actually running, Bachmann is who we need to bring about real change in this nation.
Did I ask a stupid question or was that just snarky for no reason?
 
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He's pointing out that the Tea Party frontrunners are bat**** insane, I believe.
 
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[video=youtube;JRTifRH4hRY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRTifRH4hRY[/video]

warning: vulgar language
 
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He's pointing out that the Tea Party frontrunners are bat**** insane, I believe.
Well yeah, but that's not what I asked. As an "uninformed European", I can't see any of the current candidates bring about any change. I was hoping for an American perspective.
 
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Aren't you saying that theirs one place for them to occupy with this situation? I haven't know that they're angry and suspicious on CNN or CP24 news saying about ACORN, AFL-CIO, SEIU, Nazi.


[Edit] My bad, maybe i should listen what they'd said before I went to sleep.
 
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