Speed and gameplay

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So i have been playing regular ESF and ECX for a while and one of the main differences of the two is the speed of the characters.
Now i dont know if its because the original ESF was not built for it or something, but it seems like, in higher forms, battling with higher speeds at some point becomes too much and affects gameplay a lot as it becomes too fast for anyone to be able to control the characters and maneuver them accordingly, making it sometimes difficult to angle for example, thus the skill involved in ECX is in hitting the enemy player rather than how you hit him.
After a while you kinda get used to it but, since you increased the speed even more for ESF Final, i think this issue should be adressed.
So my question is: does the increased speed of ESF Final affect the core gameplay of ESF ? Are you still able to control you characters in such a way that it doesnt become a nightmare just to hit the enemy player ?
 
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Freelance Mappzor
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The speeds are ESF beta 1.1 level at base. There are ways of going even faster though. And since you have an endless swoop now, id say yes the core ESF 1.2.3 gameplay is no more. The final is a whole different beast.
 
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i understand it´s different than 1.2.3 and thats fine, somethings needed to change like the double-tap swoop and the recovery system, but the "skill" involved in playing the game should still be there (ki management, angles, teleport hits, etc) and with the added speed plus the swoop drift it can become complicated to make these plays and rather have people flying meaninglessly in the hopes of getting random hits.
 
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Well character speeds can be tweaked on the fly, so we are kinda leaving the fine tuning up to the stress test phase.

But all in all it will be harder to pull of angle hits because of the speed and momentum based movement. People will need to readjust their timing quite a bit, so im guessing the skill difference will be more visible than in 1.2
 
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1.2 really came down to ki management. Regardless of your other skills, you wont be doing anything useful without a substantial ki buffer.

IMO Final is still about resource management, but you have more variation in choice, cost, and application. This means that unless your character is fully exhausted, you have a wider range of combat options to mix up. And the strategies that arises when your opponent has those choices too means you don't both have to have the same approach all the time. The fun is in catching people off guard after all. So I think ESF will have a healthy mix of slow and fast based combat without being cumbersome.
 
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Ecx doesnt have that great of a speed. SSJ's speeds in 1.2.3. Are much greater, really making it hard to do things with precision.
 
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id say yes the core ESF 1.2.3 gameplay is no more.

But all in all it will be harder to pull of angle hits because of the speed and momentum based movement.
This is incredibly disappointing to read, and I honestly believe you people are taking the game in the wrong direction. Granted, I haven't played the beta, but judging from the gameplay videos I've seen and your comments here; it looks like you're "dumbing" down the game to make it more accessible to everyone. Surely you must know that most people don't even use SS in 1.2.3, right? It gives you too much speed; people want to be able to control their characters so they can get those perfect angled hits - it distances the skilled from the unskilled. Your solution to this is to add even more power ups? Yea, because what we REALLY want is to go SS3 and move really fast /sarcasm. The only people who want that are RPers and little kids. The fanbase you have right now are fans of 1.2.3 and its core gameplay. I don't know why, but I've always thought this was 1.2.3 with better graphics; it's all we ever wanted.

When Final comes out, I'll go SS3 once or twice and then I won't ever use it again. I'll stick to base form where I have more control over my character. If I wanted to go SS3 with all the flashy effects that comes with it, I would go play Budokai or something. Why are you trying to change the core ESF gameplay to make it more applicable with speed? Why are you adding SS3? What was wrong with just one power up... is this what happens to creative people when they lock themselves in a room because, "People complained about bugs in a beta and that hurt our feelings; they didn't appreciate our hard work Q__Q" People either get down on their knees to praise and worship all the free time you commit to your hobby, or you take the game away from them like some shitty parent taking a toy away from his/her kid because they broke it. "You can have this back when I've fixed it. How long will that take? Don't ask; it'll be done when it's done."

You guys need real feedback. If you don't want real feedback, then you don't care if your game succeeds or not, and you are more concerned with just getting it done.

The year is 2015: everything is PC, and everything must appeal to the masses, right?
 
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This is incredibly disappointing to read, and I honestly believe you people are taking the game in the wrong direction. Granted, I haven't played the beta, but judging from the gameplay videos I've seen and your comments here; it looks like you're "dumbing" down the game to make it more accessible to everyone. Surely you must know that most people don't even use SS in 1.2.3, right? It gives you too much speed; people want to be able to control their characters so they can get those perfect angled hits - it distances the skilled from the unskilled. Your solution to this is to add even more power ups? Yea, because what we REALLY want is to go SS3 and move really fast /sarcasm. The only people who want that are RPers and little kids. The fanbase you have right now are fans of 1.2.3 and its core gameplay. I don't know why, but I've always thought this was 1.2.3 with better graphics; it's all we ever wanted.

When Final comes out, I'll go SS3 once or twice and then I won't ever use it again. I'll stick to base form where I have more control over my character. If I wanted to go SS3 with all the flashy effects that comes with it, I would go play Budokai or something. Why are you trying to change the core ESF gameplay to make it more applicable with speed? Why are you adding SS3? What was wrong with just one power up... is this what happens to creative people when they lock themselves in a room because, "People complained about bugs in a beta and that hurt our feelings; they didn't appreciate our hard work Q__Q" People either get down on their knees to praise and worship all the free time you commit to your hobby, or you take the game away from them like some shitty parent taking a toy away from his/her kid because they broke it. "You can have this back when I've fixed it. How long will that take? Don't ask; it'll be done when it's done."

You guys need real feedback. If you don't want real feedback, then you don't care if your game succeeds or not, and you are more concerned with just getting it done.

The year is 2015: everything is PC, and everything must appeal to the masses, right?
Just let them work on the badass game.
The game is looking awesome right now...
 
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@Critical Error

You said it yourself - you haven't played it. Your disdain is based solely on presumption and speculation of what may be the same or different, and you're just pleading the uncertainty of an unfair comparison.

Who said transformations only offered an advantage by way of speed? Who said the speed even changed at all? Who said transformations weren't redesigned to be useful? Who said you have to play the exact same way you played 1.2.3? You have such a superficial way of looking at the process that I don't see why your opinion on the matter is worth more than a grain of salt.

The real feedback comes from people who actually understand and experience the game mechanics. They're called testers.
 
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Did i not say the skill gap will most likely be even larger than in 1.2?

Hows that dumbing down? You have to manage turbo, stamina and KI, while aiming is harder. Someone who knows how to properly use the mechanics will literally rape you if you dont know what you are doing.

Teleport is also more offense focused and big beams are now actually an offensive option thats not related to spam only. And with the swoop being pretty much as long as your KI pool lasts, predicting your opponent is even more necesarry than it was in 1.2.3.

People look at the melee system and scream dumbing down, when its more in the other direction.
 
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Just because we havent played the final version doesnt mean we cant discuss gameplay based on observation and facts, because lets not forget that no matter what they changed the formula is still the same: outmaneuver your opponent and/or react faster than him.
If you ask me, yes the game is a lot more noob friendly than the previous version, theres no more double-tap to swoop, you can teleport while swooping and the RPS system speaks for itself.
Now this is not a bad thing, hell i myself appreciate the double-tap removal cause i was starting to gain arthritis, but the RPS system no, i dont like that very much, not because its noob-friendly but because it encourages gambling plays, you know, where the other opponent just rushes towards you in hopes of getting a head-on and beating you at RPS instead of actually trying to outplay you.
Even tho this system is not that good, it shouldnt be that much of a problem because actual pros dont get into head-ons very much, but messing with the speeds can interfere with the gameplay a hell of a lot more than you think.
Yes, increasing speeds will make the game look cooler and such but at what cost ? The devs should be very carefull with the speeds and they should test it a lot because it is probably the factor that influences gameplay the most.
Having said that, i think they indeed should make the game faster than it was before, but not have incredible fast speeds that are nigh impossible to control.
 
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@Critical Error

You said it yourself - you haven't played it. Your disdain is based solely on presumption and speculation of what may be the same or different, and you're just pleading the uncertainty of an unfair comparison.

Who said transformations only offered an advantage by way of speed? Who said the speed even changed at all? Who said transformations weren't redesigned to be useful? Who said you have to play the exact same way you played 1.2.3? You have such a superficial way of looking at the process that I don't see why your opinion on the matter is worth more than a grain of salt.

The real feedback comes from people who actually understand and experience the game mechanics. They're called testers.
Fair points, though I like to think I have a good eye for these sorts of things. Transformations also multiplied your powerlevel in 1.2.3, which increased the damage you dealt (and I believe reduced damage you took?) so it wasn't just exclusively a boost to your speed. Kynetik, are you going to sit there and try and tell me that transforming in Final won't increase your speed? Because that is what they do, and it's what they will always do. Transformations increase your speed and your strength.

@Grega
You added an in game tracking system to help players keep track of where their "target" is, I'd just like to point that out.
What do you mean by "teleport is also more offense focused" ? Teleporting was as much an offensive option as it was a defensive option in 1.2.3; it's all about how you use it. Beams are beams; competitive players don't use them because we feel they are cheap, and that isn't going to change no matter what you do to them in Final.
I'd say a major issue here, on top of everything else, is the apparent lack of informative resources on Final. I vaguely remember you mentioning stamina ect on a thread years ago - that thread is now buried, and I don't really feel like looking for it. Information on Final is scattered, when it should be compiled into sticked threads.
 
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Freelance Mappzor
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Make no misstake. The targeting system is nothing more than a replacer for the crystals. There is no arrows pointing towards the guy if he is off the screen. Additionally you can target only 1 person, so people close to you will not be marked outside the radar. People in the distance however have marks. The targeting system also helps with beam aiming, since it increases the area of the player you have to be aiming at for the beam to actually home in and hit, so you have more leewaywhen shooting from a distance.

The teleporting during swoop thing is what i meant with more offense focused. It means you can teleport on the move and all the time. Adding an extra skill you need to master. Especially since just spamming the teleport button will drain your stamina and leave you without the ability to teleport or swoop if it reaches 0. The only way it was offensive in 1.2 was either a b-line towards the person after a short recharge or to tele-angle. Being able to use it while swooping means that it can also be used in areal meneuvers freely so you can get a position advantage on the person you are chasing.

Beams were cheap because they were insta kills. And while they still pack a really big punch they will never kill you unless you are at low HP. Also you have other recovery options available. If you react fast enough, you can get out of there before the bloody thing even fires. Beamjumping is also removed for all attacks outside generic beams. And even those no longer deal damage if they are used to beamjump.

Now for the RPS system. People have habbits that they stick to, and that goes for ingame aswell as outside of the game. Meaning a person playing will lean heavily towards one of the 3 choices in certain situations. Its your job to read what those tendencies are and counter them. The only ones who will most likely actually be totally random will be people who are new to the game. Seasoned players will lean towards one of the 3 because they have a plan they want to execute in those situations. The challenge is that you will need to read though those habbits so you can counter them. And lets not forget the one thing people constantly ignore even in 1.2.3, YOU CAN BLOCK. Pros hardly ever use it because they considder it lame to counter from a block. And quite honestly if you are in that categorry, then sucks to be you as it can be a really big offensive tool. And since the RPS system is modeled after simple melee, this means block is absolute. Yes you will get some ignorable damage, but the opponent is thrown out of the swoop along the movement vector he was traveling at. The only type of melee that can actually get through a block are the bonus tier attacks, or navigate round the front of the character via anglehits.

Remember they are still possible, but they will be a lot harder to execute because of various mechanics.

While it is more streamlined, its by no means a noob friendly game. Quite the opposite, its even more punishing than 1.2.3

And yes the transformations are nerfed when it comes to PL, as they now only provide a bonus amount of PL ontop of what you have and not a multiplication. But they also provide a bigger KI pool, more HP and a small speedboost. But make no misstake about the speed. The fastest you can travel is charged turbo speeds. And thats the same across all forms. So essentially the transformations are giving you more KI and HP with a fixed amount of PL.
 
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Grega feeding my hype for ESF with this answer :D.
 
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The teleporting during swoop thing is what i meant with more offense focused. It means you can teleport on the move and all the time. Adding an extra skill you need to master.
I fail to see how pressing a single button while you are swooping translates to a skill that needs to be mastered. Also, you could teleport on the move in 1.2.3, it was just difficult and it required a lot of practice. The easiest way was to cancel your flight as soon as you took your finger of the direction you were swooping and then press G. Swooping immediately after this would result in almost no momentum loss, depending how good you were at it.

Beams were cheap because they were insta kills.
They don't have to be an insta kill for them to be considered cheap. Beams are cheap because they are "free damage" on a target. When you were knocked to the ground, the enemy could pop in a few ki blasts and there wasn't anything you could do about it without spending ki. They aren't used competitively because they require no skill and are generally looked down upon - honour in the fight, and all that stuff.



And lets not forget the one thing people constantly ignore even in 1.2.3, YOU CAN BLOCK. Pros hardly ever use it because they considder it lame to counter from a block.
Yea nah, we block all the time. You bait someone into hitting you by suddenly stopping, blocking, and then counter attacking them. Perhaps people chose not to block for the reasons you described a long time ago, but that time is gone; the meta evolved.

-

I don't like the idea of teleportation being tied to something other than ki, as I've put a lot of time into perfecting charge+turbo activation out of teleport - not that that matters. How do you recharge stamina, then? Or do you have no power over that?

"Streamlined: make (an organization or system) more efficient and effective by employing simpler working methods." by definition, streamlined means noob friendly. You are removing the more technical hand movements required to preform the same actions - i.e. double tap for swooping, ect.

How is the RPS system activated? Just by clashing?
 
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Freelance Mappzor
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RPS only affects headons and nothing else.

Kiblasts being forbidden is a european thing, US rules allow for kiblasts and genbeams in duels. On the other hand Europe allows for rollhit as long as its up to 3 times only even though that actually means 6 hits worth of damage wich is far more than a few kiblasts. Regardless the recovery options now allow you to either take a stamina hit or a health hit depending on if you want to recover or take the attack. Also the attacker if he wants to quickly fire a big attack will be wasting stamina.

Turbo now stays activated even when you recharge, but getting hit with melee will knock you out of turbo.

Stamina regenerates over time regardless of what you are doing. But only as long as you are not using Turbo. Having Turbo active, will prevent stamina regeneration. Also recharging with a full KI bar gives a boost to stamina regen. There is no other way to regain it.

Also teleportation is not tied to stamina. You only consume KI. The only time it will consume stamina is when you use it more than 2 times within a second of the last teleport. (the time limit is probably smaller i used 1 second as an example). So basically you will only loose KI unless you really spam the teleport. Its a replacement for the teleport cooldown in 1.2.3 Basically you are not tied to using teleportevery X amount of time. You can spam it all you want like in 1.1, but if you do that you will be consuming stamina.

Swooping was made like this to put an end to the whole sctipter = cheater acusations. Its basically a swoop script implemented in to the game.

And you are right. Pressing a button while you are swooping to teleport is one thing. Using it effectively, that takes mastery. I myself cant use it properly in the least. So someone like Raven who knows how to effectively use it pretty much makes me look like a total newbie. Even though im pretty decent in 1.2.3
 
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I have some questions. Will you be able to setup a server where everyone has infinite KI or Stamina or both? Will that still be accessible from the console or are you locking that away? I personally prefer playing without limitations.
 
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Having no limitations in ESF is kinda like cheating, so hopefully they wont encourage it in any way.
Btw Grega, out of curiosity, whos better at 1.2.3 ? You or Raven ?
 
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