Regarding melee

[hleV]

I'm showing the perspective of everyone: nobody's getting a kill they didn't deserve; nobody's getting a death they didn't deserve. Noobs still get rewarded by PL for hits they didn't deserve, however nobody's punished for luck.

 

[KYnetiK]

5 pages reiterating the same design mechanics I pointed out in a post [apparently too lengthy to bother reading] and still noone can reach a consensus that they even understand each other. Masturbation through argument. I see little has changed around here.

Hlev - Nothing will change. The current design works with elegant simplicity. Modifying it will create more issues than it will solve. Despite your idea seeming intuitive to you, in practice you are wrong. Do you know how myself and the ESF team know this? Because we have spent a large portion of our lives actually designing such things and building them. I'd like to think after 20 years we know what works and what f*cks sh*t up. And on that note, ESF should be about incentivizing a player to gain experience ie PL, and to do that you must improve your skills. IMO there is no legit reason to stay a noob nor target one.

 

[vector]

I'm showing the perspective of everyone: nobody's getting a kill they didn't deserve; nobody's getting a death they didn't deserve. Noobs still get rewarded by PL for hits they didn't deserve, however nobody's punished for luck.

y would u be punished for luck .... your WHOLE logic is flawed. shouldnt be punished for something u can't control.

So you think its ok if technically one person takes an infinite amount of damage and never dies. THAT is what you are saying ... THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH 1 PERSON GETTING A HIT ON U WHEN UR LOW HP. It is not luck ... it is not chance .... u got mofu**in hit bro ... get over it. stop whining.

for hits they didn't deserve? a hits a hit bro .... what are u smoking? i want some of it ... cuz ur clearly off this freaking rock and in another dimension ...


you are a wannabe pro ... u want to have no deaths, but ur not skilled enough to be able to do it without some system in place to help you. get out of here with ur nonsensical trolling and the real pros will show u how its done when the game comes out.

a LOT of games are realizing that healing doesnt work in Multiplayer games ... a lot of games are resorting to Absorb and absorb bubbles. You should gear ur idea towards that instead.

 

[hleV]

Hlev - Nothing will change. The current design works with elegant simplicity. Modifying it will create more issues than it will solve. Despite your idea seeming intuitive to you, in practice you are wrong. Do you know how myself and the ESF team know this? Because we have spent a large portion of our lives actually designing such things and building them. I'd like to think after 20 years we know what works and what f*cks sh*t up. And on that note, ESF should be about incentivizing a player to gain experience ie PL, and to do that you must improve your skills. IMO there is no legit reason to stay a noob nor target one.

You've been doing what exactly? Developing a game that never sees a light of day and can't be tested by the public, yet you're somehow knowledgable of what ****s shit up and what doesn't? Besides modding HL/HL2-based games, I've actually been playing skill-based games. I've actually seen how a way to keep yourself alive in skill-based games makes it so much more fun. I've seen how simple addon that gives you 10 HP per kill in CSDM or even ESF 1.2.3 makes all the difference, and for the better. You're not providing an argument here. You're just saying that you know better, which is not convincing at all.

y would u be punished for luck .... your WHOLE logic is flawed. shouldnt be punished for something u can't control.

Exactly my point, except for the "your WHOLE logic is flawed" part.

 

[pumadace2000]

You've been doing what exactly? Developing a game that never sees a light of day and can't be tested by the public, yet you're somehow knowledgable of what ****s shit up and what doesn't? Besides modding HL/HL2-based games, I've actually been playing skill-based games. I've actually seen how a way to keep yourself alive in skill-based games makes it so much more fun. I've seen how simple addon that gives you 10 HP per kill in CSDM or even ESF 1.2.3 makes all the difference, and for the better. You're not providing an argument here. You're just saying that you know better, which is not convincing at all.

Again with comparing Hupidur-dur the game with this one?

Also now you just sounded like a nutty preacher. Just replace everything you mentioned after the word 'seen' with god related things and... adorable.

 

[hleV]

Not being doomed to die from the beginning regardless of your skill level makes sense for any skill-based game. I'll start ignoring you again if you keep this troll attitude up.

 

[pumadace2000]

Not being doomed to die from the beginning regardless of your skill level makes sense for any skill-based game. I'll start ignoring you again if you keep this troll attitude up.

And now you're making more drama for your mamma by saying that pros would be 'doomed' to die. P.L.E.A.S.E.

The reason I'm trolling on some points is because there comes a point when I can't take what your saying seriously. When you reminded me of Heimskr was a pretty good moment. And no, you won't ignore me. You won't stop replying to this tread to anyone who disagrees with you, because you won't stand the idea of my post/anyone else's being the last one made, disagreeing with your idea.

 

[hleV]

And no, you won't ignore me.

Let's make a bet. It's not like it will be hard considering you rarely write anything worthwhile. I was already ignoring you until you stopped trolling at #203.

 

[Ryokeen]

I'll just take Hlev's words...doomed to die from the beginning...every games does that because at some point you will die, or else you're asking to make some ppl immortal players.
Then who decides wich kill is worth or deserved or not ? The gamelogic does and for raw logic it's fair that everyone dies under the same conditions...means he ran out of HP. How that happens is up to the player. If he overlooked a soo damn bloody noob and got killed, he deserves it because he should have seen that noob.

Don't get me wrong i'm open to all suggestions you(Hlev) are making, buut so far you ignored 2 times that i said i want to hear out a system wich works for everyone and not just for the allready very good players and does not only an elite group of players offer some adventages about player who can bearly get a hit on the good players.

You didn't do that you just keep promoting a system wich would preserve pro's or good players or above casual players from the shame that even a noob can land a hit on them and that they might die because of all the other fights they had before.

And you don't seem to get that even with +10hp for every kill that just shifts the possibility for a noob to kill you a bit back in time...it's just as if you got 10dmg less. A noob might still kill you with a lucky hit because you have only 15hp left. So gaining health on kill doesn't to anything to prevent pros/above casuals from beeing 1 hitted by a lucky noob. It's almost the same as when we would double the HP every player starts with.

If you're gonna say again that i don't make any common sense then i can't help you anymore. I just tried to show you the flaws of your logic bt you just refuse and keep either saying "You don't have any common sense" or "You're not providing an argument" that's your ultimative sollution once you can't say anything against it

 

[pumadace2000]

I'll just take Hlev's words...doomed to die from the beginning...every games does that because at some point you will die, or else you're asking to make some ppl immortal players.
Then who decides wich kill is worth or deserved or not ? The gamelogic does and for raw logic it's fair that everyone dies under the same conditions...means he ran out of HP. How that happens is up to the player. If he overlooked a soo damn bloody noob and got killed, he deserves it because he should have seen that noob.

Don't get me wrong i'm open to all suggestions you(Hlev) are making, buut so far you ignored 2 times that i said i want to hear out a system wich works for everyone and not just for the allready very good players and does not only an elite group of players offer some adventages about player who can bearly get a hit on the good players.

You didn't do that you just keep promoting a system wich would preserve pro's or good players or above casual players from the shame that even a noob can land a hit on them and that they might die because of all the other fights they had before.

And you don't seem to get that even with +10hp for every kill that just shifts the possibility for a noob to kill you a bit back in time...it's just as if you got 10dmg less. A noob might still kill you with a lucky hit because you have only 15hp left. So gaining health on kill doesn't to anything to prevent pros/above casuals from beeing 1 hitted by a lucky noob. It's almost the same as when we would double the HP every player starts with.

If you're gonna say again that i don't make any common sense then i can't help you anymore. I just tried to show you the flaws of your logic bt you just refuse and keep either saying "You don't have any common sense" or "You're not providing an argument" that's your ultimative sollution once you can't say anything against it

The thing I love about it is that he says doomed like they are todays elephants against poachers. Yes they are some of the toughest beasts living out there but those damn poaching noobs keep killing them. We need something to preserve them!

And then he goes full heimskr by saying, I have seen how wonderful preservations methods works in this acronym of a game that I really love. It was so wondrous. It will absolutely work for this one too. I mean if that is not an analogy of desperate jahova's witness who try to convert people to their bs I don't know what is. Oh and he's now not going to reply to this. Oh no! hlev is going to ignore me? But *sniff* hlev, can't you see? You *sniff* complete me. You and me here on this forum together... we're representing everything that is wrong with the fact that it's very toxic. I can't represent this without you! Can't you see? I need you!

That and seeing you go all the way with anyone who disagrees with you by using any tactics possible is way too amusing and once again, way too adorable.

Oh and fun fact: Elephants will die out in 5 years.

 

[Nebulisreconx]

I like HLEV's earlier suggestion about converting the tier combo points perhaps into a small hp gain. OR Perhapse giving each character a specific ability they can earn after getting a kill. Like a senzu bean for the z fighters. An HP drain (melee) attack for villains. Or a small heal over time. Letting players gain 50-100 hp for their first transformation in a life. Meaning hp gain would be based on good performance and allow plaers who built up and sustained momentum to keep it, rather than dying and loosing everything.

I'm all for seeing the game handle death and respawning all together differently. I titled a suggestion from months ago DEATH(and stuff) with some ideas, but it didn't go well as everyone seems to want to keep respawns. There should be some kind of burst usable maybe once per life where you get 20-30 seconds of overcharged speed and strength maybe 40 extra xp. But if a player hits you like this they get double tier combo points for their efforts. Opponants will instantly recognize that the other is on their last leg and have some opportunity to make an epic climax.

Most people will fight forever not offering a care to their score, they just want to see what they are capable of. My brother and I go for hours at a time, but we always try to stay ontop of one another in kills at the beginning, and forget about them minutes into the game. This just means the game is easy to get into and SUPER FUN there already is no penalty from death, just HOLD ON A SECOND. Play with it. Do something new! Everything else about this game is original. Keep it that way guys!

 

[hleV]

I'll just take Hlev's words...doomed to die from the beginning...every games does that because at some point you will die, or else you're asking to make some ppl immortal players.

Other games give you a chance to sustain your life by using skill. ESF does not. Pros will not stay immortal unless they're against a server full of first-timers. The middle ground is a weak-yet-potentially-useful healing system which prevents a lucky hit that happens rarely converting into kill.

Then who decides wich kill is worth or deserved or not ?

Common sense does. A lucky hit is not a deserved hit. Yet it's still there and I'm not against it. A lucky hit that punishes a better player by death is what's absolutely undeserved. This is what you don't get. This is why I can't be bothered to argue with you.

The gamelogic does and for raw logic it's fair that everyone dies under the same conditions...means he ran out of HP. How that happens is up to the player. If he overlooked a soo damn bloody noob and got killed, he deserves it because he should have seen that noob.

Everyone does mistakes, it is unavoidable. A very rare mistake should not be impossible to be made up for by skill. Also lag/FPS spike.

i want to hear out a system wich works for everyone and not just for the allready very good players and does not only an elite group of players offer some adventages about player who can bearly get a hit on the good players.

Literally any feature works better for skilled players, unless the feature is meant as a handicap to worse players.

You didn't do that you just keep promoting a system wich would preserve pro's or good players or above casual players from the shame that even a noob can land a hit on them and that they might die because of all the other fights they had before.

Well yes. Why would a 100 times better player be shamed by getting "defeated" by a lucky hit from a noob when that can be avoided? Because you're so worried about noobs quitting?

And you don't seem to get that even with +10hp for every kill that just shifts the possibility for a noob to kill you a bit back in time...it's just as if you got 10dmg less. A noob might still kill you with a lucky hit because you have only 15hp left.

Which is why the system is not as bad as you claim it to be.

 

[Ryokeen]

So for you common sense does decide wich kill is worth it or not. For me that sounds like that for good players the kill isn't worthy so it shouldn't happen. But i do get that you want to prevent a lucky hit killing a better player. But then explain to me how a system should aboid that.
As i said if you think over it you will allways find out that situations where a noob can kill a better player will still exist unless you make better players immortal to noobs or you have some suerior AI wich descides if you were attacked by a noob(or use the k/d ratio for it) and let that hit wich resulted in a death of a good player not count.

You also want that the game logic makes up for mistakes you made...that's not what the game is responsible for.

I'm just worried how a system ,wich can decide if a hit event on the player occoured, wich results in a death of some player should look like so that it doesn't just only does what you so easily say is "decide on common sense". All i was asking for is maybe think about yourself and give me a system wich can be programmend. But no you still refuse and just repeat everything again that "IT" will work "IT is superb, "IT" doesn't befefit pro onlys and only in a way they don't get a "undeserved" deaths. You still didn't explain how "IT" actually should work and who it should recognise wheather a kill was deserved or not.

So for the 3rd time i'm asking "Show me excatly how your system looks, should work, how it is not only there to just protect good players from a lucky hit kill"
When you're not gonna do that, then i assume you have no idea and just don't want to die by someone you think is not worth killing you.

 

[hleV]

I did give you a system. If it does not seem good enough to you it doesn't mean that another, better one can't exist. It's just you who's not willing to give it a thought. HP per hit until X HP: if skilled enough you can make up for lost HP by regaining some; you won't be one-shot, but that's only a problem for noobs because players with lesser skill gap will manage to do more than one hit before you hit them enough to re-accumulate lost HP to not be a one-shot material again.

 

[Ryokeen]

So with X Hp per Hit until N amount oh Hp doesn't sound so bad. Only problem i have there is, ESF is very skill based and as a noob, you have to learn everything , moves, maneuvers, Ki management, and to son. That system would probably prevent one hits as a general thing for everyone who is not just a punchingbag. Unless well a pro beats you, noob intefers and gets the lucky last hit, but meh that rly can't be avoided. So what i am saying is that would make the skill gab even bigger because noobs (and yes a game needs to consider all ranges of skill..). Noobs not only don't know the game well enought no they also have a hard time beating a good player over more rounds becaue with their death they also refill the good players's hp.

So that creates the situation for me that a noob gets "punished" by death, minor pl loose and also was nothing more than a healthpack for a good player. And that somehow doesn't sound as i game i would like to try out, it doesn't sounds fair that good players get even more revarded for beeing good than just well beeing top places on PL/scoreboard.
If you like it or not, ESF wants to attract a whole range of players not just veterans and allready very good ones, and it should, or do you think a game only for pros will be that "famous" or will be played a lot. You have to care for noobs because games also should make fun and shouldn't be for elites only. Sure they can be hard to master but the first results, as getting a kill shouldn't be made harder than neccessary. When all players start with the same Hp and everything, then only the skill decides how long you live, sure but you can't just strip out by saying certain deaths are just undeserved, they just happen until you're immortal or got eyes on your back

For me it all ends at the point where you don't have any HP left to survive another attack. As i said, you might have gained Hp back, got into a fight and well don't have enough left for another hit. So there a lucky noob could still kill you, wich then doesn't remove the luck factor, it just well rewarded good players with a tad longer lifetime.

I just can't rly think of a system wich effectivly prevents one from getting killed by a lucky hit(consider what i wrote above), without making him immortal.

And i do think about everything very much i'm just most of the time to lazy to write it down fulltext.

 

[hleV]

You're too concerned about kills/deaths being an important factor to noobs. It's not. It's not what makes the score. It's only there to display how people stack against each other in terms of skill, not in terms of ability to win. It's only natural that one would be required skill to kill a skilled player in a skill-based game. Otherwise it's a luck-based game.

 

[Ryokeen]

It's just not as black and white as all of your world seems to be. Games are and will always be luck based to some degree and by definition, removing the luck factor to move the outcome of a situation towards a specific group of ppl is..well cheating.
You just don't think about new players. How should they ever get skilled when the game is punishing them for jost not beeing skilled ?
And i could also say , you're to concerned about undeserved deaths of a skilled player

 

[hleV]

Luck factor in a skill-based game should be avoided if possible. If you can't agree with this very simple idea then there's no point arguing with you. It's not a punishment if you as a noob can't a kill a pro via luck. Not at all.

 

[Ryokeen]

Luck should be avoided yes, but not at all costs. Luck is everything a noob got and a skilled player is happy to have. It's a punishment for noobs because no luck means no hit/kill at all agains good players, that means no fun at all for new players(noobs).
And consider the fillowing, even with Hp gain in any form, there will be a point where you can't survive another hit. I just can't think of a fair gamelogic wich prevents a noob from killing you then, because he was at the right time at the right spot to kill you with 1 hit, or a pro in the same situation, to kill you with 1 hit <- the noob part is what you don't want to happen right ?
I hope you see the problem there, it's the dicision, did a noob hit you by lucky conditions, or a pro because he waited until you're a safe kill.
in FFA you don't have many 1vs1 it's 1vs all others, so that situation can occour quite frequently.

 

[hleV]

It's a punishment for noobs because no luck means no hit/kill at all agains good players, that means no fun at all for new players(noobs).

Noobs are still able to "use" luck to score hits, and thus score points that are most important in the scoreboard.

And consider the fillowing, even with Hp gain in any form, there will be a point where you can't survive another hit. I just can't think of a fair gamelogic wich prevents a noob from killing you then, because he was at the right time at the right spot to kill you with 1 hit, or a pro in the same situation, to kill you with 1 hit <- the noob part is what you don't want to happen right ?

There will always be luck, my suggestion does not entirely suppress it. The difference is that a skilled player actually has a chance to prevent getting one-shot once a noob gets lucky (I say once because it is definitely going to happen sooner or later and that's not related to skill, that's related to special circumstances). But in order to take that one hit you have to go through a lot of skillful play until then. The noob won't get lucky again anytime soon, at least not until the pro is able to withstand another lucky hit.

Don't ******* punish skilled players for noobs' luck just because they happen to be noobs.