New Member
This is the main idea.
If forward swoop has an initial delay on it, like say 1 second, it will allow two distinct melee styles to exist: In-Fighting and Out-Fighting. The compensation to forward swoop is that it would travel faster, thus dealing more damage and taking less time to reach the enemy. I've figured that swooping's goal is to essentially hit the player when they aren't expecting it, and this promotes that idea. Here's something to consider as well: Movement seen coming towards you is harder to track than movement going side to side. Also keep in mind as I relate, that faster swooping speeds result in a higher occurance of head-on attacks, as it limits the time in which you can move the mouse and respond to the other player moving.
What doesn't change? By changing only forward swooping, you can still immediately swoop and glide in every other direction all the same. You only swoop side-to-side or up and down when you're evading or positioning to attack anyway, right? This change won't affect that. You can dodge and counter attack, or even angle a side swoop and THEN forward swoop without that delay.
Why the initial delay? What's the point of all this?
The point of making an initial forward swoop delay is to reduce swoop's effectiveness in close-range combat. An immediate forward swoop in close-range combat will ALWAYS overpower someone using Turbo to fly around... unless it has a delay. That's the whole point of this.
Delaying a forward swoop ALLOWS this In-Fight to happen with Basic Melee and Turbo/Teleporting. It won't ALWAYS beat the swoop, but a skilled In-Fighter will use this opportunity seamlessly, so the other player will have to be smarter about it, and/or switch to an Out-Fighter style. If a player side-swoops and then forward swoops, it still gives the player time to react and guard, or even hit them while they're side-swooping, where a forward swoop is just unstoppable.
Do you want two melee styles?
I do, and I think you do too. Currently an In-Fight can't exist because a person using forward swoop can endlessly pursue, and the player is forced to use teleport to escape and recharge until the enemy is out of Ki. When they recharge, then it's their turn. Sometimes there are counter attacks in between when timed right. The idea behind Advanced Melee was to create an In-Fight scenario because of this outcome. However, every good player understands that it doesn't compliment Basic Melee and game mechanics very well. "You're fighting you're fighting... oh pause... yawn... ok I lost who cares. Back to what I was doing." No doubt they canned Advanced Melee in this version, yet we see the need for an In-Fighting style. Here it is.
In boxing there's two kinds of boxing styles; In-Fighting and Out-Fighting.
Out-Fighting in this case would be creating distance, using ki attacks, countering enemy swoops with your own, and using these fast, distance-closing forward swoops at the right times to surprise hit/throw the enemy when they're recharging or not expecting it.
In-Fighting would be in constant pursuit using short, close-range teleporting, turbo melee to maneuver in a 360 range around the enemy (the closer you are, the more effective it is), and basic meleeing to juggle.
In-Fighting is effective in directly knocking out an opponent's stamina at a constant pace. It can create opportunities to use finishers, and is best done by the stronger/skilled player, as the marginal differences in power will be reflected through a greater number of hits. Since knockbacks done without swooping are shorter, you can keep pursuing the other player and hitting them more often resulting in significant stamina loss.
Out-Fighting is more about evasiveness and strategy, and against a stronger/better opponent, it can be a way to avoid getting hit while dealing significant damage. It indirectly deals damage to Stamina, which means that you need to down the opponent before you can really start hurting their stamina. Against a player already low on Stamina, it would be an easy way to control the pace of the fight while putting yourself at minimal risk. If a player is relentlessly attacking someone with Ki attacks who is trying to recharge, this can become a very interesting and effective strategy. Some people also prefer using Ki over Melee, though I'm definitely not one of them.
Character Application:
With two melee styles, among several other factors, you can consider some characters to be better than others at this. For example, Trunks has his Burning Attack which blinds the enemy. This allows him to be an effective In-Fighter using ki-attacks. He can transition from Out-Fighter to In-Fighter easily if this attack connects, meaning he can take advantage of a weakened/weaker opponent... such as Frieza.
Now Krillin and Goku have Solar Flare, a previously useless skill. To the opposite effect, they can use Solar Flare during an In-Fight to transition into an Out-Fight. Since Krillin has less Ki (as far as current goes), he would use it primarily to escape. If Goku used it and had Ki reserves, he could put a little punch behind it. Solar Flare couldn't be used before because Advanced Melee was the old In-Fight, and you obviously can't use Solar Flare during Advanced Melee.
Also consider Destructo Disc. It requires a direct shot at the enemy to do anything. If Krillin was played as an Out-Fighter, and someone was trying to use a Forward Swoop constantly to close distance, he would be able to hit them easier with it, though they could always side swoop or teleport to evade if timed poorly. Solar Flare and Destructo Disc make Krillin the ideal Out-Fighter.
Throws:
Now the coup de grace. Right-click forward swoop will knock the enemy back as it does now. If you angle it from above, you may just want to nail them into the ground. However, if you're positioned poorly but near the ground, Left-click forward swoop will allow you to do a short distance quick-throw in any direction, where you have ~1 second to aim and throw. If the opponent has no ki or chooses not to stop, they can travel farther. You can't spring up if you're thrown into the ground, you have to stand. You can off of walls. Recovering from a throw too quickly after you're thrown will result in Ki loss, assuming you don't hit anything. This will slow down an In-Fighter and make them have to recharge their Ki.
An Out-Fighter can use the throw to pin the enemy to the ground and use rapid Ki shots to drain their Stamina, thus allowing them to move to an In-Fight this way. The idea here is that In-Fighting and Out-Fighting will be constantly shifting from one to the other. You can't ONLY fight in one style, and if you can, then you've just gained a defining attribute as a player, which some may love, and others may hate.
To Summarize, these are the needed changes:
1> Forward swoop initial delay
2> Forward swoop is significantly faster and thus deals more damage
3> Short-distance teleports, maybe from having Turbo on
Suggested Changes:
4> Forward swoop allows a short distance, quick throw by holding Left-Mouse button
5> Rapid ki blasts result in higher Stamina damage but less Health damage.
6> Ki Balls stop swoops
7> Turbo consumes slightly more Ki, since otherwise In-Fighters would have a huge advantage in Ki conservation.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpf0d_grmvE[/ame]
A show of Turbo Melee in action. In the beta, it's much more fast-paced, as teleport and knockback are shorter.
http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?t=72030
Explains the concepts of swooping and the three factors in altering it: Swoop speed, delay, and maneuverability.
I previously said to limit the maneuverability of a forward swoop, but after talking with Devan and some other players, I decided it would be a bad idea and considered that a swooping delay would suffice.
http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?t=72137
Ki ball stuns to halt head-on attacks. I think this would allow Out-Fighters to avoid In-Fighters more easily. The idea is pretty straight-forward.
If forward swoop has an initial delay on it, like say 1 second, it will allow two distinct melee styles to exist: In-Fighting and Out-Fighting. The compensation to forward swoop is that it would travel faster, thus dealing more damage and taking less time to reach the enemy. I've figured that swooping's goal is to essentially hit the player when they aren't expecting it, and this promotes that idea. Here's something to consider as well: Movement seen coming towards you is harder to track than movement going side to side. Also keep in mind as I relate, that faster swooping speeds result in a higher occurance of head-on attacks, as it limits the time in which you can move the mouse and respond to the other player moving.
What doesn't change? By changing only forward swooping, you can still immediately swoop and glide in every other direction all the same. You only swoop side-to-side or up and down when you're evading or positioning to attack anyway, right? This change won't affect that. You can dodge and counter attack, or even angle a side swoop and THEN forward swoop without that delay.
Why the initial delay? What's the point of all this?
The point of making an initial forward swoop delay is to reduce swoop's effectiveness in close-range combat. An immediate forward swoop in close-range combat will ALWAYS overpower someone using Turbo to fly around... unless it has a delay. That's the whole point of this.
Delaying a forward swoop ALLOWS this In-Fight to happen with Basic Melee and Turbo/Teleporting. It won't ALWAYS beat the swoop, but a skilled In-Fighter will use this opportunity seamlessly, so the other player will have to be smarter about it, and/or switch to an Out-Fighter style. If a player side-swoops and then forward swoops, it still gives the player time to react and guard, or even hit them while they're side-swooping, where a forward swoop is just unstoppable.
Do you want two melee styles?
I do, and I think you do too. Currently an In-Fight can't exist because a person using forward swoop can endlessly pursue, and the player is forced to use teleport to escape and recharge until the enemy is out of Ki. When they recharge, then it's their turn. Sometimes there are counter attacks in between when timed right. The idea behind Advanced Melee was to create an In-Fight scenario because of this outcome. However, every good player understands that it doesn't compliment Basic Melee and game mechanics very well. "You're fighting you're fighting... oh pause... yawn... ok I lost who cares. Back to what I was doing." No doubt they canned Advanced Melee in this version, yet we see the need for an In-Fighting style. Here it is.
In boxing there's two kinds of boxing styles; In-Fighting and Out-Fighting.
Out-Fighting in this case would be creating distance, using ki attacks, countering enemy swoops with your own, and using these fast, distance-closing forward swoops at the right times to surprise hit/throw the enemy when they're recharging or not expecting it.
In-Fighting would be in constant pursuit using short, close-range teleporting, turbo melee to maneuver in a 360 range around the enemy (the closer you are, the more effective it is), and basic meleeing to juggle.
In-Fighting is effective in directly knocking out an opponent's stamina at a constant pace. It can create opportunities to use finishers, and is best done by the stronger/skilled player, as the marginal differences in power will be reflected through a greater number of hits. Since knockbacks done without swooping are shorter, you can keep pursuing the other player and hitting them more often resulting in significant stamina loss.
Out-Fighting is more about evasiveness and strategy, and against a stronger/better opponent, it can be a way to avoid getting hit while dealing significant damage. It indirectly deals damage to Stamina, which means that you need to down the opponent before you can really start hurting their stamina. Against a player already low on Stamina, it would be an easy way to control the pace of the fight while putting yourself at minimal risk. If a player is relentlessly attacking someone with Ki attacks who is trying to recharge, this can become a very interesting and effective strategy. Some people also prefer using Ki over Melee, though I'm definitely not one of them.
Character Application:
With two melee styles, among several other factors, you can consider some characters to be better than others at this. For example, Trunks has his Burning Attack which blinds the enemy. This allows him to be an effective In-Fighter using ki-attacks. He can transition from Out-Fighter to In-Fighter easily if this attack connects, meaning he can take advantage of a weakened/weaker opponent... such as Frieza.
Now Krillin and Goku have Solar Flare, a previously useless skill. To the opposite effect, they can use Solar Flare during an In-Fight to transition into an Out-Fight. Since Krillin has less Ki (as far as current goes), he would use it primarily to escape. If Goku used it and had Ki reserves, he could put a little punch behind it. Solar Flare couldn't be used before because Advanced Melee was the old In-Fight, and you obviously can't use Solar Flare during Advanced Melee.
Also consider Destructo Disc. It requires a direct shot at the enemy to do anything. If Krillin was played as an Out-Fighter, and someone was trying to use a Forward Swoop constantly to close distance, he would be able to hit them easier with it, though they could always side swoop or teleport to evade if timed poorly. Solar Flare and Destructo Disc make Krillin the ideal Out-Fighter.
Throws:
Now the coup de grace. Right-click forward swoop will knock the enemy back as it does now. If you angle it from above, you may just want to nail them into the ground. However, if you're positioned poorly but near the ground, Left-click forward swoop will allow you to do a short distance quick-throw in any direction, where you have ~1 second to aim and throw. If the opponent has no ki or chooses not to stop, they can travel farther. You can't spring up if you're thrown into the ground, you have to stand. You can off of walls. Recovering from a throw too quickly after you're thrown will result in Ki loss, assuming you don't hit anything. This will slow down an In-Fighter and make them have to recharge their Ki.
An Out-Fighter can use the throw to pin the enemy to the ground and use rapid Ki shots to drain their Stamina, thus allowing them to move to an In-Fight this way. The idea here is that In-Fighting and Out-Fighting will be constantly shifting from one to the other. You can't ONLY fight in one style, and if you can, then you've just gained a defining attribute as a player, which some may love, and others may hate.
To Summarize, these are the needed changes:
1> Forward swoop initial delay
2> Forward swoop is significantly faster and thus deals more damage
3> Short-distance teleports, maybe from having Turbo on
Suggested Changes:
4> Forward swoop allows a short distance, quick throw by holding Left-Mouse button
5> Rapid ki blasts result in higher Stamina damage but less Health damage.
6> Ki Balls stop swoops
7> Turbo consumes slightly more Ki, since otherwise In-Fighters would have a huge advantage in Ki conservation.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpf0d_grmvE[/ame]
A show of Turbo Melee in action. In the beta, it's much more fast-paced, as teleport and knockback are shorter.
http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?t=72030
Explains the concepts of swooping and the three factors in altering it: Swoop speed, delay, and maneuverability.
I previously said to limit the maneuverability of a forward swoop, but after talking with Devan and some other players, I decided it would be a bad idea and considered that a swooping delay would suffice.
http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?t=72137
Ki ball stuns to halt head-on attacks. I think this would allow Out-Fighters to avoid In-Fighters more easily. The idea is pretty straight-forward.
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