destiny or choice

your future is determined by

  • choice

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  • destiny

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I think Choice Because I do not like it when people say "You were destined to make that choice", also when i make choices (say between black or brown shoes) i would usually just take the closest ones or depending on what I chose needed to be done that day. like i have shoes or boots, if i chose to go to school, i would use my shoes, but if i chose to walk arond my woods i would use my boots

(yes i know there are alot of "choose")
 
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My own personal belief is fairly complex and out there, but it does involve religeon so I have to be careful explaining it here.

I think that either we, or a watcher at another referance frame are hurdling backwards through time. Time is totally relevant to the observers point of veiw, and thus all of mans time on earth, and earth's time itself for that matter, may have already happened.

Thus, we are the tape player scenario.

Does that mean we cannot change fate? No, I am a firm beliver in fate being strong, but not unbreakable. I do think choice is relevant, and possibly strong enough to aviod fate for a number of years, decades, perhaps even millenia. I think that their are a number of fates possible, but they are finite, you cannot escape them all.
 
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People are bashing the tape recording thing for its face value. It's supposed to represent an individual in the past trying to make a decision and then making a decision. In this timeline if you were to go back in time and watch everything in live time you would see him struggle and then come to the same conclusion every time you were to rewind time, not just a tape. Anything in the past that ever happened only happened in one way. You can't go back in time and change your own decision, so once the decision is made it becomes what was the only possible solution to your initial dillemna. Why? Because you're still on the same timeline as you were, and you can't change it, so it was already marked on the timeline before you got to it.


Ok, let me put this into a different perspective. There is a small delay between when something happens and our brains interpret it. There's a fraction of a second delay between the time someone moves and the light refracting off of them reaches your eye, travels through your brain and registers. On that account, we never at any given time see things as they are happening, but rather as they have already occured. It's only a fraction of a second but it suits the point I'm making... we aren't conscious of the present, only of the almost-present, the "what just happened" side of things. We see things as they have already happened, not as they are happening. Why can't this concept be projected into the future? Everything that came behind us is written in time-space so what leads you to believe that everything in front of us isn't written in time-space too? We never see anything until it's already happened, though we might make predictions or presume mathamatically in our own way, so even as we "venture" into the future we're still only recording events and occurances that have already come to pass. We're all watching that tape from beginning to end now, we just can't rewind.


Alea I sorta get your point, but at the same time I only think it supports mine. Humans are like computers, that's true. Everything happens for a reason, some things just beyond our comprehension. The weather doesn't just happen because you get angry or sad. Your emotions *might* have an incredibly small impact on the weather and act as a variable, but realistically the weather is comprised of an incomprehensibly large number of variables consisting of everything from wind speeds to the cycle of the moon to which directions people are moving and all of that, anything and everything that affects the air. We can't measure it because it is beyond our comprehension, but we make our best estimates with what data we *do* know (which isn't nearly enough). In this same way I believe human interaction can be placed within a system of equations with an untold number of variables that are calculated and tallied every moment which we simply aren't consciously aware of because our minds aren't strong enough to take in and filter that kind of information. Just because we can't figure the equations out doesn't mean they aren't running. The feelings, genes, personality, experiences, body type, the way you speak, other people, the weather, your preferences, your predispositions, every living thing and everything that affects living things are all factored into the equation which will inevitably play itself out in a linear sequence of conflicts and mathamatical problem solving.


It's like your teacher giving you a calculus problem that takes you six hours to solve. Every time you tallied up a piece of the equation you arrived at either an incorrect answer, or assuming you have to get the problem right so you eventually do, a correct answer, which is the only correct answer, which is the only answer that part of the equation could have had from the moment the equation was created until eternity. You experienced each correct answer as you worked it out, but you didn't create them, they were the only possible solution from the beginning, you just couldn't see them until you worked out the logic behind it. Perhaps if humans were vastly stronger mentally we could work out the situations and equations behind every day life this way.
 
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As Neo would say, 'I don't believe in fate because I don't like the idea of not controlling my own destiny.' And no, I could give a rat's ass if the quote was a word or two off.
 
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i have already noticed that you are mostly all getting influenced upon an earlier persons answer. i believe in fate, it is inevitable, you may think you have made another choice but really that choice is the choice you were meant to make. there is some greater force beyond human comprehension out there, everything is like pages in a book.

Say you go to get a job at a local store or whatever, the boss decides not to hire you even though you are probably more capable then everyone there, you have no choice in the matter, and neither does your boss, the choice was already made so that somebody else would get the job to fullfill their purpose in life. we are all slaves to purpose, when everybody has their own preferances its because we were meant to like it. when people have their own personallity it means they were meant to be like that. No one gets to choose how your personallity will be, because it isn't a matter of choice.

I know i might sound a little religious or whatever saying this, but really i dont believe in anything, and its not because i chose not to, its because i was meant not to, just like the other dude was meant to get the job instead of you. people cant choose why air and trees and life itself is just here. It's here because its meant to be here.

You cannot change your fate, its like death, everyone dies sooner or later, no matter what choises you make in life, you will eventually die. This is why its an extremely good idea to pay attention to what some prophets and people like that say, because they just knew what was about to happen, because they were meant to know. Look at nostradamus (mind the spelling) for example, he predicted the three evils and so far 3 things have happened. it was his purpose in life to know this, he could not choose otherwise because he was meant to know it. just like you are meant to like the things you like and dislike the things you dislike.

With that i leave you, dont want to drag on to long :p
 
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i completely beleive in choice and chance, ill try to explain my reasons.

Vulkan i beleive that personalities are actually results of alot of choices. These choices arnt necesarily your own. Personality is decided by alot of things, and so is changes in personality. For example your personality could be influenced by where you live, what your parents are like, what they do for a living, what their hobbies are, past experiences, future goals, idols, what school you go to, what car your parents drive, what their financial status is like, what your countries status is like, all of above about your friends and so many other things. Things like this all effect someones personality and many of them you dont get a choice about until after your personality is made ( eg: u cant really decide where u live until u grow up and by then u have your own personality created by many things ).
Your personality is not 'ment to be' which is why people constantly change. This is evident as people mature. Little kids running around doing and saying stupid things etc but most adults dont, because their personality has changed over the years based on many of the things i listed above and of course alot more.

Yous all know the game Russian roulet. Immagine your in a group of deppressed soldeirs in WW2 and yous are playing the game. When it comes up to your turn its not destiny if u die that turn or the turn after, or the turn after that one or dont die at all. Its just pure chance and luck of where it stops spinning.

And i dont really know what many of yous are trying to explain by explaining simple anatomy and physics. Yes we receive an image a tiny tiny tiny ammount after the real thing happens. And yes we die, our cells devide up to an ammount where they will stop deviding ( cell division stopping results in the stop of production of white blood cells meaning u become more and more valnurable to disease as u get older), which is when people really start to 'age' and you will inevitabaly die. choices cannot change this now because it is just the way our body has evolved, we dont get a choice on just telling our brain to create us a new limbs or whatever. well actually now scientists do kind of have the choice but i wont talk about that as i would go heavily off topic.

everything that u do is a result of a choice, sometimes it may not seem like there was much of a choice to make but it was still a choice. Every choice is made after calculating the consenquences and possible results of each possible choice that is visable to you, this is why in your tap example sonic the person would keep making the same choice. For example, if its cold outside and u are getting dressed to go out and u have a choice of weather to wear a jumper or not. based on things like it being cold u would choose a jumper. So like if u rewind time back to that same spot, as long as its still cold outside and u take that into account when choosing ur clothes u will allways choose to wear a jumper. because at the time it allways seem like the best choice.
 
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eaz135 said:
i completely beleive in choice and chance, ill try to explain my reasons.

Your personality is not 'ment to be' which is why people constantly change. This is evident as people mature. Little kids running around doing and saying stupid things etc but most adults dont, because their personality has changed over the years based on many of the things i listed above and of course alot more.

Yous all know the game Russian roulet. Immagine your in a group of deppressed soldeirs in WW2 and yous are playing the game. When it comes up to your turn its not destiny if u die that turn or the turn after, or the turn after that one or dont die at all. Its just pure chance and luck of where it stops spinning.

And i dont really know what many of yous are trying to explain by explaining simple anatomy and physics. Yes we receive an image a tiny tiny tiny ammount after the real thing happens. And yes we die, our cells devide up to an ammount where they will stop deviding ( cell division stopping results in the stop of production of white blood cells meaning u become more and more valnurable to disease as u get older), which is when people really start to 'age' and you will inevitabaly die. choices cannot change this now because it is just the way our body has evolved, we dont get a choice on just telling our brain to create us a new limbs or whatever. well actually now scientists do kind of have the choice but i wont talk about that as i would go heavily off topic.

everything that u do is a result of a choice, sometimes it may not seem like there was much of a choice to make but it was still a choice. Every choice is made after calculating the consenquences and possible results of each possible choice that is visable to you, this is why in your tap example sonic the person would keep making the same choice. For example, if its cold outside and u are getting dressed to go out and u have a choice of weather to wear a jumper or not. based on things like it being cold u would choose a jumper. So like if u rewind time back to that same spot, as long as its still cold outside and u take that into account when choosing ur clothes u will allways choose to wear a jumper. because at the time it allways seem like the best choice.

Your personality changes and matures over time based on your interpretation of life experiences, which is determined by your personality. Your brain chemistry doesn't just change randomly.

The chamber of that gun spinning in Russian roullete is spinning a certain way for a certain reason. The guy who spun it did so at a speed that equated to his personality (if he was eager) and the control he had over his arm plus his strength plus any other number of factions including things like hessitation if he wasn't sure if he should do it or not or a breeze in the room. The actual amount of times that chamber spun around was then dependant on how clean the gun was, how much dust or dirt was stuck in there, and how well the gun was made. Wherever it stops is dependant on all of these things, so I don't think it's chance that does it.

You're right that we don't have a choice as to our genes or brain structure or how we're raised, and that we make the best choice in any given situation based on whatever our brain thinks is the best, but that also factors in personality. You can't just say a coat is the best option when it's cold. If you had a rebelious personality you might not take the coat, and explain it to your friends as "choosing to go cold." It wasn't so much that you actively chose to do something detrimental to yourself as you had reasons for doing it that aren't obvious to other people, it's your personality.
 
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you dont get to choose your personality, it is made the day you are born and you cannot change it without still feeling the same way, its like say your friends try to influence you on decisions, if you say yes and its something you dont like you will feal guilty for it.
 
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Vulkan said:
you dont get to choose your personality, it is made the day you are born and you cannot change it without still feeling the same way, its like say your friends try to influence you on decisions, if you say yes and its something you dont like you will feal guilty for it.
ah ur making the same assumption that nearly every1 that is against cloning is. You are saying that personality is all just created from nowhere, that you are born with one. Look, if george bush was cloned his clone would not act nor think the same as him unless the clone experiences an identical or close to life that the origional george bush did. All the clone would be is a genetic replica. This is the same when somebody is born, they are a genetic replica of their parents with a fresh new brain, u do not carry personality over from your parents although they will influence the buildup of your personality. drug dealers arnt created the day they are born, criminals arnt created the day they are born, heros arnt created the day they are born, defensive people arnt created the day they are born, aggressive people arnt made the day they are born, shy people arnt created the day they are born. Those paths are the results of a countless ammount of choices ( not necesarily your own ).


sonic thats what im saying about personality, as you grow up and some of those things that i listed change than so does your personality ( sorry if i made it sound like your personality gets chosen based on chemical composition). All personality is, is another factor that ur brain automatically takes into consideration when making a choice.

and all those things you listead about the russian roulet, they are all the results of choice. how much strengh u put into spinning the chamber is your choice even though you might not notice it ( it might get automatically chosen by your agressive personality ). all the things about the gun, how clean it was is the result of choice by the person who owns the gun and weather they chose to clean it or not. how well the gun is made is the result of choices made by whoever made it.
To me chance is the probability of a string of choices resulting in a certain event which is why i chose to describe russian roulet as a game of chance. The person who plays the game normally doesnt know where abouts in the chamber the bullet is so all he can do is flick the chamber and await the result of the choices of strengh etc he just made.
 
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No, personality is your brain, the way it works and how you respond to situations. It's true experiences change your personality but that was a part of my argument from the beginning. You can't choose or change your experiences just like you can't choose or change your genes and how you are raised. How you are raised, your genes, and your experiences make your personality which tells yourself how to make choices.
 
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Sonic Boyster said:
No, personality is your brain, the way it works and how you respond to situations. It's true experiences change your personality but that was a part of my argument from the beginning. You can't choose or change your experiences just like you can't choose or change your genes and how you are raised. How you are raised, your genes, and your experiences make your personality which tells yourself how to make choices.
You can't Change you experiences but you can choose what you experince sometimes, like "Do i go to the party? or stay home?" you have a choice whether to go to the party, meet people, or sta yhome and go on-line. whats done is done, and you can't change that. But you do have a choice in what you do.
 
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Well i believe in choice theres always a choice I quote Auron from FFX "Now is the time, now is the time to craft your fate, now is the time to face your sorrow, now is your time to choose" it might not be exatly the same thing what he said but still you get the idea.
 
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Well first of all, I've looked around these forums for a while now but this thread was too good to pass up; so I'd like to say hi :)

Anyway, it's hard to chose between choice and destiny. In my opinion there is only a very fine line between them both.
I personally agree with everything Sonic has said except for his conclusion. For example, take the tape recorder argument: I do agree that the man would have said that same thing no matter how many times time was rewinded, however I believe that is down to choice, not conscious choice and maybe not a choice made at that moment but still choice.
I think that what happens to people is determined by what happens in the past (like Sonic says with the shoes), however I think that counts as choice rather than fate. As an example take me replying to this thread; somewhere in my life I became interested in philosophical discussions and so there and then the choice was made that I would reply to this thread. I think the same kind of thing applys to many things we do in life, it all comes down to subconscious choices we've made in the past.

I think that main thing my argument brings up is how do you define destiny? Me and Sonic think the same thing and yet we come to different conclusions. Is a subconscious choice still a real choice? I feel it is, but what do you think?
 
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ive come to realize that this thread isnt about whether you believe in choice or destiny. countless times the people that "believe" in destiny have said that you make choices based on blah blah blah or because of blah blah blah. so to me it seems that everyone believes in choices. the question is whether they believe in destiny or not.

and that discussion about russian roullette... HOT GARBAGE. who the hell cares about who cleaned the ****ing gun? you spin it the way you spin it for one of two reasons
1. you think they way you spin it is the best way for you not to get shot.(assuming you dont want to get shot)
2. you really dont give a **** how you spin it cuz its all chance.

and this other garbage about your personality being determined by your parents and theirs by their parents... thats partly true, since most ppl are raise by their parents, they tend to pick up on their mannerisms, habits, personality etc. BUT they dont just get born and automatically they are copies of their parents(the cloning example was great. GJ) well, you can go ahead and believe what you want to believe... whether it be that you think you are just predestined for everything, or that you make your own choices.

whatever...
 
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That's true, people who voted for destiny have spoke of choices, but they talk about predestined choices. I think instead of choice it should be free will, that would probably be a better way to describe it.
 
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Cyfore said:
ive come to realize that this thread isnt about whether you believe in choice or destiny. countless times the people that "believe" in destiny have said that you make choices based on blah blah blah or because of blah blah blah. so to me it seems that everyone believes in choices. the question is whether they believe in destiny or not.

and that discussion about russian roullette... HOT GARBAGE. who the hell cares about who cleaned the ****ing gun? you spin it the way you spin it for one of two reasons
1. you think they way you spin it is the best way for you not to get shot.(assuming you dont want to get shot)
2. you really dont give a **** how you spin it cuz its all chance.

and this other garbage about your personality being determined by your parents and theirs by their parents... thats partly true, since most ppl are raise by their parents, they tend to pick up on their mannerisms, habits, personality etc. BUT they dont just get born and automatically they are copies of their parents(the cloning example was great. GJ) well, you can go ahead and believe what you want to believe... whether it be that you think you are just predestined for everything, or that you make your own choices.

whatever...
This is very true because if destiny is being choosen and there talking about choice then Destiny is errelevent in there anwser
 

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