Catholic Barbeque

[fryd4good]

Thank you for letting us all know that, Majin You. No flaming, right? Right. Good.

And yes, I realize there are verses in the Bible which could be interpretted that way. However, what you seem to either have forgotten (or do not know) about the Bible, is that it is not meant to be taken literally at all. The general truth of what it says is accepted, however it is full of verses that people can take either a) out of context or b) not remembering the culture of the time it was written. The Church doesn't think that Adam and Eve literally ever existed, that's all figurative. Also, about the slavery issue, in the time the Bible was written slavery was accepted by nearly every culture. It was the way of life back then. You have to look at the Bible and "translate" it into our own times. You can't simply look at a verse for its literal meaning and move on. Even if you did look at the slavery verses literally, which is a false way to view the Bible, you would notice that there are laws that all slaves must be treated hospitably and that you must release them after, I think it was four or seven years at a maximum. So, that's that.

 

[owa]

I don't beleive god, nor religion, so my opinion is pretty biased, but I have to say somthing. Why is it fine for preists to malest children, but wrong for two men/women who love each other to get married.

 

[SailorAlea]

This is a response to your statement, "The Church doesn't think that Adam and Eve literally ever existed, that's all figurative."

Actually, the Catholic Church insists that almost everything about the Bible should be taken literally, rather then figuratively, and it's commonly known. One of the biggest disagreements between the denomination 'Methodist' and the Catholic Church, have been the symbolic nature of the bread and wine--The Catholic Church insists that it is really the blood and flesh of Jesus, which is preposterous, rather then a symbolic gesture.

As for the four to seven years release, you're right. Seven years. But this was never followed. And as for the 'hospitable' treatment.. I wouldn't call beating someone to death for not working fast enough, to encourage the others to step it up.. 'hospitable.'

Edit: I don't feel like continuing this discussion further.. If you wish to talk to me further, click the AIM button and talk to me there, or send me a private message.

Please don't respond to this, in-thread.

 

[fryd4good]

Alright... although that does defeat the entire purpose of this thread, I'll ignore your post here. You can also use AIM anytime with me. But I really see no reason to do that, because the only reason I even made this thread was to publicly debate the matter. So in essence, you've stopped just in time to squeeze off the last word on the matter. Whatever. And ZeniSlev, if you'd read a little more, I've already said multiple times that it's NOT okay for priests to molest children.

 

[Scorcher2k]

I have to say that I'm steaming over reading your responces fryd. The church has always been corrupt. It has always manipulated people and used them to gain power. The reason it still isn't as corrupt as it was is because it no longer holds as much weight with people. If the church was to suddenly say that it was going to wage war to gain holy land it would never happen. The renasance happened as well the technological revolution.

Let me say now that I have nothing against people's beliefs or religions but I do have a problem with catholism. Its past is corrupt and based on false ground as well it believes in a chain of command when "all are created equally under god". With that said predudice has always been there. The only reason that women were allowed to do anything in the church is because it was the churchs way of shutting them up.

First of all, as far as I've noticed, the only thing that the Church disallows women from becoming is priests. There's a good reason for that, oh, involving a thousand or more years of tradition not to be broken for the sole purpose of appearing politically correct...

If the church had really changed it would be past sexuality and embrace its own beliefs. Neither god or jesus ever believed that a womens place was in front of a stove but thats still the way they are treated. All people are created equally and should be treated so by a religion that people believe in out of fear and hope.

To anyone that reads this I recommend exploring the world and the simple facts out there. Once you explore what there is you'll find what you want/need to believe in or maybe just what you'll settle for. I have nothing against catholic beliefs but the church has always been corrupted, still is corrupted, and I'm not seeing any change coming soon.

 

[fryd4good]

I'm sorry that you're steaming. First of all, the reason you think many of the things you do, is because you have no real knowledge of the Catholic faith. I've had a lot of life experience growing up around Catholics. Women aren't treated like they have to sit around the stove all day and clean the house, blah blah. My own mother always held a job, and actually got paid quite a bit more than my father. My father's Catholic, and not even in the darkest regions of his mind would he ever consider trying to treat my mother like that. He would have been in some SERIOUS trouble. And, as I've stated many times, the Church's beliefs are not PAST people's sexual preferences because the beliefs of the Church are strongly tied in with sexual preference. If the Church was really corrupt, it would be caving in on its beliefs instead of upholding them.

 

[Toki]

religion is crap you belive in what you want to belive in :S

in the old days if someone in your family died you could pay the church some money to insure they went to heaven

lol im a confirmed Catholic

- Chuch

 

[Bryggz]

The fact that all this happened during a period called the "Dark Ages" is irrelevant. They are called the dark ages because thats what we choose to call them. I doubt whoever lived in that era called it the Dark Ages... This all didn't happen because people new they were living in the "Dark Ages." We have made that the Dark Ages.

As long as the Church believes they have authority over laws and the government, they are corrupt in my opinion.

Don't you people know anything? They were called the Dark ages because of the ignorance of the people who lived then, hence the phrase "left in the dark", many books of study at the time were lost to us, and we know much little about this era than other eras due to this fact.....so hah

anyways, I converted to christian some time ago....I disagree with the catholic methods in many ways, and in some ways i could call myself an atheist (but that explanation would take pages.)

 

[Scorcher2k]

Saying that I don't know about catholocism is nothing but an assumption. It is also hypocritical to say that the church isn't going to break a tradition to not let women into high positions but they will break tradition to use and manipulate people for power. I wasn't saying that women actually sit in front of a stove, I was saying that that is still the way they are treated/looked upon by the church in respect to positions and hear say. The church caved in on its beliefs years ago. The crusades for example. A great conquest to gain back the holy land and kill lots and lots of "evil doers" as good old g w would put it.

 

[fryd4good]

A) The Pope at that time was more of a warrior than a Pope, yeah, that was a mistake, but all belongs in the "past" category which I've already put that age of the Church into.

B) It was an assumption based on evidence that you presented to me about yourself.

C) When did I ever say they would break tradition to use and manipulate people for power?

 

[Majin_You]

I think there is a misconception in this thread that the Church and Catholicism are the same thing, when in fact, they are not. The Church = the spiritual/physical sum of the faithful (that could be of any faith, actually), where as Catholicism is a religion, a set of beliefs, basically. Just because the Church is corrupt, in your opinion, does not mean that Catholicism is. There are people who are Catholics that don't follow the Pope, like the Ukrainian Catholics - many of them follow a "Patriarch", who has no affiliation with the Pope. Hence, Catholicism, and, more importantly, religion in general, should not be the target of your harsh criticism. Remember, I stated earlier that scrutinizing and questioning anybody's religion or devotion to it will be frowned upon.

 

[Death Biscuit]

I think there's no denying the impact the R. C. Church had on shaping European civilisation, and the mentalities of those within it for more than a thousand years.

Millions of people were united under the Church- where disorder might otherwise have prevailed-and laid the groundwork for many of the institutions around us today. Great alliances and friendships have been forged by it, and its base teachings of love, chastity and humility have spurred many individuals to great and noble deads. The darkest and most terrible moments of many a person's life have been alleviated by the hope and strength transferred to them through their holy saints.

And yet, the Catholic Church has also been responsible-directly or indirectly-for some of the most despicable acts of evil through history. It has toyed with the lives of millions, and used the their hopes and convictions simply as a means of garnering more power and wealth unto itself. It is a powerful and terrible tool, used by governments to control their population, or to control government itself. Great cultural and racial hatred has been fueled by it, leaving rifts that last with us to this very day, and which continue to grow in parts of the world where religious conflict is still rife.

For many, the Catholic Church is life itself: an institution to which they owe their very existence, and which only serves to help God's children, unifying them under His name. For others, it is simply a by-word for corruption, dishonesty and hypocrisy, deserving of no less contempt than any other insidious organisation the human race ever suffered to crawl upon its world.

For me, the Catholic faith, like all religions, is an engima: how a belief-system that extols the virtues of this shadowy, unseen and ethereal realm could hold such power and sway over the physical, material world around us that we CAN see, that we CAN feel. It's incredible to think that an organisation that places such emphasis on this immaterial world, which only they can truly discourse with, could inspire people to kill eachother as if it were nothing.

The more I think about it the more I understand that religion has become one of the defining aspects of human society, and perhaps human nature itself. It has, after all, been a part of us for over 50 000 years now, and regardless of your opinions on its integrity there's really no denying its global significance past and present, and how it has indelibly shaped our world.

I hope that someday, if we ever unlock the secrets of human beings' affinity for religion, we might just come one step closer to understanding the fundamentals of human existence, and do justice to our ancestors whose solace came only from the auspicious visage of their shrines, dimly illuminated by the candlelight.

 

[Kaio Sama]

Hi all, just to start, I want to let everyone know that I'm Catholic and that I have a pretty good knowledge about the Church. I'm not a history buff, so I don't know a lot about the "Dark Ages," but I want to clarify a few things.

Firstly, I want to clarify the Church's stance on homosexuals. The Church teaches that the homosexual act, two members of the same sex engaging in intercourse, is a grave sin. Now, it also teaches to love your neighbour as yourself. This includes homosexuals. Homosexuals should be treated like any other person. "Hate the sin, LOVE the sinner."

Secondly, the Church does not place women lower than men. In fact, according to tradition and Church teaching, Mary, the Mother of Christ (a woman), was the only person, aside from Jesus, to be conceived without Original Sin (Original Sin = Adam and Eve disobeying God), and the only person aside from Jesus to ascend body and soul into heaven. She also has one of the highest seats in heaven and is praised throughout the world. Some might ask the question why doesn't the Church allow female priests? Because if Jesus intended to have female priests he would've appointed a female to be among the twelve apostles. Plain and simple.

Also, 99.99% of priests are good, honest, and holy men. There are those few molesters who messed things up for the other 99.99%.

Finally, the Church does not throw its political weight around to manipulate and control others. The Pope and bishops, as the heads of God's Church on earth, have the responsibility to inform God's people about what is right and what is wrong. Ultimately, it is us, or world leaders, or whoever, that make the final decision. The Church does not attempt to manipulate or control people because that would be taking away people's God given Free Will. Like I said, I am not a history buff, so I can't comment on mistakes of the Church (yes, the PEOPLE inside the Church make mistakes). However, if you do want to be part of the Catholic Church, it means playing by its rules, yet this is another topic all together.

I hope this has clarified some things for everyone.

 

[Scorcher2k]

I completely agree with you majin_you. I tried to seperate the church from the religion but it was taken again as something else. I have no problem with the religion as it is but I do have a major problem with the church.

The church has always manipulated and control others though. It has influenced everything that has happened sence it was formed. Not so much so starting in the 1700s forward but with technology goes religion it seems.

Of course people make mistakes and I understand that but what I don't understand is why a religion, a set of beliefs, needs a chain of command to tell people more beliefs. People can believe what they want, and a religion can do what they want, but when it is set up like the church is it seems more like an organization.

 

[Kaio Sama]

Actually, after thinking about it, you cannot separate the Church from the Roman Catholic religion. It is called the Roman Catholic Church. Also, in the Apostle's Creed which is recited at Sunday Mass, it says "we believe in one holy catholic (notice not uppercase, catholic means universal) Church." The Church is the mystical body of Christ. Catholics make up that mystical body.

I think I've said this before, but let me say it again. The reason there is a set of organized rules is so that the faith is not perverted or twisted. The structure is there to ensure that everything is passed on as it is, and not some variation of it. If people want to do something that does not coincide with Canon Law (the Church's Law) then let them do it. It's just that they can no longer call themselves Roman Catholics. Puting it simply, its like this forum. If you do not obey the rules, you can be given the boot, or go start your own forum somewhere else and make your own rules.

 

[fatmanterror]

maybe this is just an opinion of mine, but it seems like most peoples opinion on this matter are completely biased, in other words, everybody is really stubborn to their own side of this discussion, this is why none of these kinds of conversations ever go anywhere, do u guys really think ur gonna sway eachother into buying one anothers beleifs on the matter? (yes im catholic, hazaaa)