Struggle System - How do you think the 'ball' type attack struggles should work?

[Skyrider]

So the re-make of the struggle system comes to a near completion, we still got one more thing to worry about. How exactly the ball type attacks such as the spirit bomb, death ball, etc comes into play with the struggle system.

As it stands right now in the public releases, you can spam(ish) the ball type attacks constantly without having to worry about anything. Either to kill your opponent(s) or let someone else struggle your attack with for example a beam attack. The major problem with this is that once that person is struggling your ball type attack, it leaves the person struggling defenseless. By the time that player has won (if that would be the case) he or she would have 'nearly' depleted his/her stamina/KI which in the end makes it more difficult to fight back.

The other problem is that when you do win, you have really nothing to win for. Sure, you pushed back the attack successfully until it hits something solid but then what? Your opponent is still alive as he would be able to walk/fly freely around the map outside of the explosion radius.

The team's current idea is once a ball type attack is fired, it leaves the person in a locking position. Unable to move, until the attack no longer exists in the battlefield. The user however still has the ability to control the attack by moving (controlling) it around which mimics the beam control system.

We are just curious to see what your opinions are how you think the system should work. So, got any other thoughts? Share your idea! We cannot guarantee it'll be in the game though, but it will give the team some more insight on how the system may work in the future.

If you like the current *idea* of "fire, cannot move but can control it" system for ball attacks, you are welcome to reply as well to share your kudos for the idea.

 

[Emudshit]

idk sounds kinda weird, why not have it as a cinematic attack like in the games this way it wont slow gameplay? yet to execute it you need full ki or something like that idk just being locked in position while its moving doesnt sound right and while it may look cool it will hurt the gameplay

 

[FinalFlash]

Why dont you leave it like it is in 1.2.3?

 

[Guppinas]

If you just hold the block button, you just gets less damage, but you still get damaged
If you hold the block button and LMB, you enter into a struggle to block it and make disapear
If you hold the block button and RMB you block it and shoots it back
The amount of energy you use on the both sides depends on the powerlevel
The game could get your powerlevels and compare each other to set the amount of energy you waste in the struggle
Ok... thats my idea

 

[Ryokeen]

Okay guys. The question was on how to solve the problem that the one shooting a big ball attack (genkidama and so on) atm can't loose in a struggle. He can simply fly away and recharge no risk there. He can even spam them. Its NOT about how you loose a struggle but about how encurage struggles against a ball attack. Atm and in previous ESF versions the only thing you gain from blocking or struggling a ball attack is..you're out of KI and defensless.
To counter that and to make struggles against ball attacks an options it's worth to consider the idea is to make ball attacks similar to beams. Faster as now but only controllable to a small degree and lock the player who fired them in place. They are stronger than most beams so they are still a big hit. BUUUT then it would make more sense to block or struggle them as instead just teleport/fly away because both struggling players can win(damage the other player) or loose.

AGAIN it's not about HOW to win a struggle but about WHY you should even engage in a struggle against a ball attack

 

[Emudshit]

in my project a struggle is a big thing which can only happen when the ki bar is full to fill ki br u need to fight opponent "not power up" once full you have to either risk using a power attack aka kameha or choose to transform aka become super saiyan, to do a kameha you first have to engage in combat though if the other person also has full ki it will trigger a beam struggle, in the beam struggle health depletes first to hit 0 losses though person who initiated struggle healths drops 5% slower and depending on the current transformation will also decide health decrease speed, but thats just my way of doing it everyone's different, I do like the look of a free to use kameha but to me when I tested it with testers, its just looks good but it effect game play negatively

 

[FinalFlash]

Maybe make both attacks explode upon contact? What about a cooldown feature to patch the spam issue?

 

[vector]

So the re-make of the struggle system comes to a near completion, we still got one more thing to worry about. How exactly the ball type attacks such as the spirit bomb, death ball, etc comes into play with the struggle system.

As it stands right now in the public releases, you can spam(ish) the ball type attacks constantly without having to worry about anything. Either to kill your opponent(s) or let someone else struggle your attack with for example a beam attack. The major problem with this is that once that person is struggling your ball type attack, it leaves the person struggling defenseless. By the time that player has won (if that would be the case) he or she would have 'nearly' depleted his/her stamina/KI which in the end makes it more difficult to fight back.

The other problem is that when you do win, you have really nothing to win for. Sure, you pushed back the attack successfully until it hits something solid but then what? Your opponent is still alive as he would be able to walk/fly freely around the map outside of the explosion radius.

The team's current idea is once a ball type attack is fired, it leaves the person in a locking position. Unable to move, until the attack no longer exists in the battlefield. The user however still has the ability to control the attack by moving (controlling) it around which mimics the beam control system.

We are just curious to see what your opinions are how you think the system should work. So, got any other thoughts? Share your idea! We cannot guarantee it'll be in the game though, but it will give the team some more insight on how the system may work in the future.

If you like the current *idea* of "fire, cannot move but can control it" system for ball attacks, you are welcome to reply as well to share your kudos for the idea.

Alright, so .... just my 2 cents here. I honestly feel like having more variety in fighting styles is great and like the idea that ball attacks still allow the attacker to move (balancing it is the key). It is something completely different from beam attacks and makes it more viable. Beam attacks as it is in 1.2.3 never have much impact in a match and unless they were hugely buffed in Final I dont see them being all that great with how big the maps are. I think having Ball attacks can offer a lot of variety in fighting styles and to balance them I would say why not allow the Beam users able to cancel their beams early. Say a beam struggles with a ball, the beam user noticed the other attacker approaching him and he can stop the beam and defend himself (stopping the beam on an uncontrolled Ball attack would result in both exploding and causing radius damage, this could very well hit the person approaching him from the said Ball attack, good balancing/counters right there)

Another thing is, why not give the option to both players? Allow Ball attack users and Beam users both the ability to maintain teh struggle and push it back, But at any point they can cancel their beam and go on the approach. This can be done in a very appropriate way. Whoever disengages teh beam struggle, has the other beam/ball traveling at them at super speeds (it would be the punishment for not continuing to engage). What would the benefit be for ball users to keep engaging you say, well the benefit would be that the radius of explosion gets much bigger and does more damage the longer you channel its travel .... and you have the option of triggering it early as well. I like the aspects of using ball attacks, but I would say its damage/radius should depend on how long you channel during its travel duration.

Honestly, I like the idea in the first one a lot better. Letting Beam users able to detonate a struggle in which a ball user is not controlling it still is very viable and can offer some great Gameplay mechanics. Allowing ball users the ability to use a ball as a distraction is still a great gameplay mechanic as well. I'm unsure how the beams/balls will be powering up in Final but if its like 1.2.3 the way it can be achieved is that while the ball user is cahrging up, when it gets to the yellow bar (the min required) it throws the ball off, but the remainder of its power is built up by continuing to channel it and stay in control. You see this happen a lot in DBZ, The spirit bomb and deathball can be let go by themselves .... but they always do more when the primary attacker stays channeling and pushes it forward. The ball attacks that stay unchanneled have always fallen flat.

 

[CCMesh]

You shouldn't be stuck until the ball is gone.
Beam types should always win against ball types period. If you want, you can make the ball consume a little bit of your opponent's stamina (the one power struggling with it) and then after a second or two, the ball should explode and the beam would pass right through.
It would be like a safe move, but it won't be no risk high reward kinda move.

 

[hleV]

Beams should win against balls regardless of powerlevel, and balls' pushing force shouldn't stack.

"Special" balls such as Genki Dama should allow you to control it, though that'd immobilize the user.

 

[Heph]

Beams should win against balls regardless of powerlevel, and balls' pushing force shouldn't stack.

"Special" balls such as Genki Dama should allow you to control it, though that'd immobilize the user.

I also think beams should absorb/destroy balls but .. i think you should have a toggle to control the ball which locks you in position when controled thus allowing the struggle to work (like goku controls the sb versus buu). The uncontrolled energy balls should be absorbed(making the beam stronger) or destroyed.

 

[slayerish]

freedom to the players

Alright, so .... just my 2 cents here. I honestly feel like having more variety in fighting styles is great and like the idea that ball attacks still allow the attacker to move (balancing it is the key). It is something completely different from beam attacks and makes it more viable. Beam attacks as it is in 1.2.3 never have much impact in a match and unless they were hugely buffed in Final I dont see them being all that great with how big the maps are. I think having Ball attacks can offer a lot of variety in fighting styles and to balance them I would say why not allow the Beam users able to cancel their beams early. Say a beam struggles with a ball, the beam user noticed the other attacker approaching him and he can stop the beam and defend himself (stopping the beam on an uncontrolled Ball attack would result in both exploding and causing radius damage, this could very well hit the person approaching him from the said Ball attack, good balancing/counters right there)

Another thing is, why not give the option to both players? Allow Ball attack users and Beam users both the ability to maintain teh struggle and push it back, But at any point they can cancel their beam and go on the approach. This can be done in a very appropriate way. Whoever disengages teh beam struggle, has the other beam/ball traveling at them at super speeds (it would be the punishment for not continuing to engage). What would the benefit be for ball users to keep engaging you say, well the benefit would be that the radius of explosion gets much bigger and does more damage the longer you channel its travel .... and you have the option of triggering it early as well. I like the aspects of using ball attacks, but I would say its damage/radius should depend on how long you channel during its travel duration.

Honestly, I like the idea in the first one a lot better. Letting Beam users able to detonate a struggle in which a ball user is not controlling it still is very viable and can offer some great Gameplay mechanics. Allowing ball users the ability to use a ball as a distraction is still a great gameplay mechanic as well. I'm unsure how the beams/balls will be powering up in Final but if its like 1.2.3 the way it can be achieved is that while the ball user is cahrging up, when it gets to the yellow bar (the min required) it throws the ball off, but the remainder of its power is built up by continuing to channel it and stay in control. You see this happen a lot in DBZ, The spirit bomb and deathball can be let go by themselves .... but they always do more when the primary attacker stays channeling and pushes it forward. The ball attacks that stay unchanneled have always fallen flat.

i agree with vector. i believe dragon ball games in the past have made players feel limited in what they can do but when i watch dragon ball z, the fighters are always being creative. and i think this game has what it takes to give people that freedom and creativity to fight the way they want to. a ball attack user should have three options.

1. disengage from the struggle but then the other person in the beam struggle should not be able to lose against it, they should be able to detonate the attack which can then damage the ball attack user if they get to close to try to attack the person in the beam struggle

2. stick to the beam struggle and tough it out so he can actually win the beam struggle to damage his opponent.

3. shoot a beam into his own ball attack for the beam struggles. this would just look cool, this kind of ties in with the 2nd option but just a different way of doing it.

with these options it makes the ball attack user feel more obligated to stay with the struggle cause if he doesn't then he wont benefit from it at all.

 

[Hellion_Blade]

anything that takes away control from the player is NOT fun. you want to reward the player for doing the right thing rather than punish them for doing something unfavorable.

Leave the system as the 1.2.3 mode has it. you shouldn't be trying to deflect a strong attack like that if you're PL is too low. If its too low of course you're going to be exhausted and defenseless when you finally deflect it. but that's the thing, the ability to deflect it is what you should use to balance it. you should be able to aim the ball in any direction. in 1.2.3 if you turn too much to one side or the other it blows up in your face. get rid of that. until I let go of the block button or run out of ki, it shouldn't blow up. if you can redirect it in ANY direction then not only did you charge it up further by 'struggling' but you also get to throw it back at them. This means you're not defenseless and you have a good reason to take your enemies attack and turn it against them. they wont want to get close to you because you can just throw it right back at them. You could even take it a step further and have your character 'struggle' to get it under control and then if they achieve control over the sphere they can choose when and where to throw it. similar to holding a charged KHH where you can move around slowly.

now if your PL is high it doesn't take long to deflect it and if your PL is REALLY high you can deflect it right away without a struggle at all.

I think the teams current idea of locking the player down after fire is terrible because if your enemy just dodges the attack, you're locked down and SOL.

This suggested method is going to feel familiar and like an improvement rather than a whole new system that's going to slow down the fight.

 

[Ryokeen]

anything that takes away control from the player is NOT fun. you want to reward the player for doing the right thing rather than punish them for doing something unfavorable.

Leave the system as the 1.2.3 mode has it. you shouldn't be trying to deflect a strong attack like that if you're PL is too low. If its too low of course you're going to be exhausted and defenseless when you finally deflect it. but that's the thing, the ability to deflect it is what you should use to balance it. you should be able to aim the ball in any direction. in 1.2.3 if you turn too much to one side or the other it blows up in your face. get rid of that. until I let go of the block button or run out of ki, it shouldn't blow up. if you can redirect it in ANY direction then not only did you charge it up further by 'struggling' but you also get to throw it back at them. This means you're not defenseless and you have a good reason to take your enemies attack and turn it against them. they wont want to get close to you because you can just throw it right back at them. You could even take it a step further and have your character 'struggle' to get it under control and then if they achieve control over the sphere they can choose when and where to throw it. similar to holding a charged KHH where you can move around slowly.

now if your PL is high it doesn't take long to deflect it and if your PL is REALLY high you can deflect it right away without a struggle at all.

I think the teams current idea of locking the player down after fire is terrible because if your enemy just dodges the attack, you're locked down and SOL.

This suggested method is going to feel familiar and like an improvement rather than a whole new system that's going to slow down the fight.

Still doesn't change the fact that noone would do it, because the other one can just keep on shooting balls at you wich makes it unpossible to win a struggle

 

[Mystic-Bullet]

I'd say it should work as the spirit bomb works in the anime.
Once goku fires it he has to keep pushing the bomb forward.

Like against buu.
Or like against Jiren in super.

and weaker ball attacks should get destroyed as it does now in esf.
While the stronger ones go into struggle and leave the user immobile.

Maybe a generic beam could go into struggle with the lower tier balls... it's just a risk that the user has to take
for going into a struggle with them. But only for the weaker beams if generic beams are still even in the game.

 

[Internauta]

I think that the ball players should stay free to move and lock them only if they want to counter the opponent in the struggle. In that way the player can thow another ball (or even a beam!) that can be absorbed by the first (to make it bigger), lock in the struggle (like goku's spirit bomb vs bu), go away, etc.
On the other side the beam players must have the chance to leave the struggle whenever they want: in that case the beam (like, for example, a kamehameha) can turn into a ball (since it isn't powered anymore by the player) and let the beam/ball struggle alone/explode/etc.

I pick some examples from the anime:
Goku vs Kefla - Ball vs Beam (18m 10s):
https://youtu.be/CyUxD-mWYqM?t=18m10s
Gohan vs Cell - Beam vs Beam (1h 23m 00s):
https://youtu.be/nrWUshsSGTw?t=1h23m00s

In the second video both Gohan and Cell left their beams unpowered turning them into balls. In the first video Goku could do the same and escape from there, if he had not been surprised by Kefla. In this way the players have more strategies, i think.

I'm sorry for my bad english, i hope you understand what i mean

 

[CMillzer]

It should be the same as it is in 1.2.3 with a few changes. First off, do not lock the person who casts the ball. One of the cool things my friends and I like to do is throw a spirit bomb into a struggle, then charge another beam to continue pushing the Spirit Bomb back. Second, the person who struggles with the ball should be given the option to blow it up, early. However, the person who is struggling should have to push it far enough back before triggering the explosion, or they take damage. If the person shooting the ball decides not to join the struggle, maybe you can make it so the person beam struggling gains a faster rate of acceleration on the ball than normal. Perhaps you can add another bar with some kind of mark that shows how far away you need to push the ball in order to explode it, and not take damage.

Edit: Also, maybe give the winner of the struggle a tiny boost in ki.

 

[Xenoxice]

If I were to give my 2 cents here, I would simply create multiple ways to deflect ball attacks moreso than "struggle" with them. Honestly unless I'm mistaken, there are very VERY few instances throughout dragonball where anyone ever launched a beam at a ball attack. It's either 1. Dodged. 2. Guarded and deflected after a short struggle with it. 3. Deflected instantly if their PL was equal or greater than their opponents. Or in more rare cases which I think you could add these as special moves for "deflecting" them: Goku fighting Majin Vegeta, there's one attack Goku completely negates it right in front of him making it disappear entirely. (Maybe make it use a small amount of stamina but requires it to be used the moment before impact?) Or another "special" deflect, When Gohan is fighting buu after gotenks and piccolo were absorbed and he reflected the attack directly back at him (Maybe make something like this a short channel requiring good timing and using stamina?) I just don't see anybody in ESF ever trying to launch a beam at a ball period.... It's either guarded, dodged or countered with another ball instead of a beam. The only real struggles that ever actually really happened in DBZ are Ball vs Guard, Beam vs Beam, or 1 Ball with a battle for control of it. Even most of the instances where it was Ball vs Ball, they cancelled each others momentum out and shot straight down detonating on the ground. I think adding more creative ways to deflect or negate a ball attack quickly would be better than trying to basically find a loophole in an impossible situation without making a broken or flat out stupid mechanic. Besides, there have been several instances in dragonball where a ball attack was used as nothing more than a diversion to make an opponent guard it before blind siding them.

 

[Ryokeen]

The talk about different ways to block/deflect do whatever with incomming attacks is nice, but the fact is, there will be struggles balls vs beams(just ignoring those is a cheap way out). Thing with different ways to block is, how would you initiate that ? More keys ? Do you want a fast fighting game with tons of buttons ?

 

[Eacos]

I say leave as close to 1.2.3 as possible.
Maybe tweak a few things, like Hlev says. Some big attacks like spirit bomb should behave like a beam. Gen Beam balls should be left alone.
Far stronger gen balls should blast through others. Gen balls equal or near equal in power could collide and explode, damaging any players in their radius. That way you add another layer of complexity without sacrificing movement.
Colliding signature attacks like death ball and spirit bomb should be just like a beam struggle. Add in a few minor differences for diversity's sake, having it drain more stamina than PL. Just like Gen Balls, stronger signature attacks should blast through others.