RANT: Accomplishment

[Ravendust]

I once got such a sense of accomplishment after beating 'Dante Must Die' on DMC3 (regular, not the 'watered down Special Edition) that I thought I had an orgasm. True story.

Cheats take away the challenge, and the challenge is half the fun. The accomplishment is the feeling you get for beating said challenge. The players in those videos are (somewhat obvious) show-offs who probably got nothing more than an inflated ego after posting the video on YouTube.

 

[Skiwan]

What does it matter if somebody chooses to play a single player game abusing the glitches to get it done in the fastest time possible? It's just a video, if you dont wanna use those glitches ignore them and play how you'd like. On a multiplayer game its different, because other people are suffering because of it, but against the computer, who really gives a flying ****?

Tbh one of the only way you can complete a game in a ridiculous time is by abusing all those loopholes/shortcuts, which you could say is a skill in itself....

 

[Fire Phoenix]

And? I've seeing more cheaters on ESF than I care to count. And the only time I couldn't kill them was back in 1.1. In 1.2.3 it's just funny. And yet...I don't cheat....hmmm...odd. According to your analysis, someone cheating in a game promotes others to cheat. And yet, I don't cheat.

Omg I'm non conforming, i'm emo D:

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

Just because you're not using cheats doesn't mean you aren't cheating. Far as I'm concerned the double-hit, the wall roll, etc. ... all those are as lame as using an aim hack.

What you guys are saying doesn't make sense. It's like saying someone was totally using a corked bat while playing baseball but since he isn't in the major leagues it doesn't matter.

Besides the example of my friend still stands: he would see that video and try to copy it. A lot of people want to WIN more than they want to HAVE FUN in today's video game landscape (ESF is proof of that). He beat warcraft in 3 days and he bragged about it, left and right, never admitting he cheated the hell out of it but also never admitting otherwise. Cause that's what cheaters do.

Tell me you have played against a cheater of any kind in anything who didn't rub his imminent victory in your face afterward.

@Chris: ESF is an exploit-ridden mess. Odds are you use just as many scumbag tricks to win as anyone else. Just because you don't have an aimbot doesn't mean you're actually fighting honorably, and though I don't doubt your claim without any actual evidence we have to take it at face value.

All I'm saying is, seeing people cheat doesn't make others cheat. But it helps cheaters learn how to cheat better--people who were already inclined to seek gameplay advantages get to watch counterstrike bunny-hopping kill streak vids, WoW ninja looting vids, etc. and see how to be dirty without even having to exert the effort of finding out how to cheat. At least in ESF you have to learn how to cheap-out someone.

I know this particular video is irrelevant but all I'm saying is that I wouldn't want to be in the habit of posting my dirty victory moments if I was a cheater. Because a large percentage of the people who play these games would love a way to cheap their way to victory every time.

Regardless, you proved our side of the argument true by just pointing out how many cheaters there are on ESF. You think there would be half as many without this forum's threads, or demos from ESF world, etc. showing off these tactics and how to do them? You think HOWing would have been so big if it had never been given a name or brought up on this forum? No way, no how. Go back in time a couple of years and look at the official CS forum's wealth of bunny hopping threads, or AWP threads, or riot shield threads...tell me it didn't affect the game.

Again, even with a single player game...there could be some kid out there right now trying to play and beat those games that is just going to say "screw it" and use those kinds of techniques to crush it utterly. One of the testaments to the strength of some old games is the fact that I never managed to beat them--games like Zelda 1 and 2, I just had a hard time as I got near the end. In both I made it to the end dungeons but never finished them all the way. Then again I was pretty young, but still.

The reason was because I didn't have the damn internet telling me to use the silver arrows to beat Gannon, and I sure as hell didn't have them posting a video of techniques on how to beat shadow link.

Any and all cheats in all of gaming should be frowned upon, as they are habit forming. Any game this dude plays on emulators, for example, he is going to try to use these same tricks in. And the idea will always be there in his mind, no matter the game--"I wonder what this would be like with a speed hack..."

I'd just rather have no cheating at all, ever. I mean, why cheat? David, I see your point that using all of those exploits is a skill in itself, but at the same time...I would be much more impressed if he beat the game thoroughly on his own.

 

[Zeonix]

Just because you're not using cheats doesn't mean you aren't cheating. Far as I'm concerned the double-hit, the wall roll, etc. ... all those are as lame as using an aim hack.

@Chris: ESF is an exploit-ridden mess. Odds are you use just as many scumbag tricks to win as anyone else. Just because you don't have an aimbot doesn't mean you're actually fighting honorably, and though I don't doubt your claim without any actual evidence we have to take it at face value.

Regardless, you proved our side of the argument true by just pointing out how many cheaters there are on ESF. You think there would be half as many without this forum's threads, or demos from ESF world, etc. showing off these tactics and how to do them? You think HOWing would have been so big if it had never been given a name or brought up on this forum? No way, no how.

I can't agree with you about the ESF part. Double hits are supposed to be ingame. I mean...that was completely intentional. Wall juggling is cheap yes, and thats why we've limited the number of hits one can perfom in a match or in a tourney. We're not going to limit it in pubs, because the goal of people in pubs is to rack up as many kills as possible. As long as you're working for that kill (spamming beams doesn't count), and the number of hits is reasonable (2 hits on a wall at most in a pub), I'll allow it. Only 1 hit is allowed on walls and the ceiling in matches. That is completely fair.

Yes, I think there would be just as many HOWers and "lamers" and what have you if it was never mentioned in the forums. Why? Most of the playerbase doesn't participate or even frequent these forums. They rely on what people can teach them ingame.

I fought you once when you still played, and in all honesty, you were..."okay" at best. I understand ESF can be frustrating when you're completely outmatched at every turn, but saying everyone is a cheater is as bad as all those esfn00bs calling everyone hackers. Its ridiculous and wrong.

 

[PiXel]

i use myself cheats even sometimes by the start of a game, im mostly interested on the game story, so i want to finish it faster and get every infromation about the story faster.

If games like dbz, naruto or some storys wich are allready known i dont use cheats, im simply bout the game play then.

games are supposed to be abused till its maximum, so why not use the glitches aswell for help?

or maybe, they are even no "glitches"....

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

That's sort of my point, Zeonix. The very fact that you have to limit that sort of thing shows it for what it is...the only reason why I would not be considered very good is because I don't do any of those techniques--which thus renders me an ineffective player in ESF. Isn't that an indication of how much of a deal-breaker those techniques are in itself, that you have to forcibly limit them in order to have a 'fair' match in competitions?

 

[Zeonix]

I wholeheartedly agree that without our forced limitations, the game is broken. People wouldn't stand a chance no matter what they did if we played however we felt like playing.

However, I truly believe that with the restrictions we've placed on ourselves and everyone else that the game is actually pretty fair now. The only thing that separates the good players from the bad players in fights between "pros" is experience or the inability to adapt. I truly believe this.

The problem is that you choose not to double hit (I don't understand that btw. Double hitting was intended to be used by the team ), or bounce someone off the wall or shoot a gen beam at someone while their down. You have your code of honor and you have no idea how much I respect that. For awhile during 1.2, I did too and I was getting my ass kicked because everyone was using unconventional warfare (gen beams and ki blasts). Thats the main distinction between us. I chose to adapt, to learn to fight like them in order to beat them. You have to remember that ESF is a battlefield. The Americans beat the British with Guerilla warfare, and once we became too attached to conventional warfare, we were beaten by Vietnam. It may sound out of place in this forum, but I hope you understand what I'm saying.

The beautiful thing about ESF is that we can actually control what goes on. We can outlaw exploits or things that just completely destroy the gameplay experience for other people. The real issue is when you can't, and then you're just at the mercy of the scumbags that cheat because winning is the only thing that matters.

 

[Fire Phoenix]

That's sort of my point, Zeonix. The very fact that you have to limit that sort of thing shows it for what it is...the only reason why I would not be considered very good is because I don't do any of those techniques--which thus renders me an ineffective player in ESF. Isn't that an indication of how much of a deal-breaker those techniques are in itself, that you have to forcibly limit them in order to have a 'fair' match in competitions?

I learned how to double hit by PC_Joe himself on the day they release 1.2, that's how I learned. If you have a problem with double hitting you can blame the person that coded this game. First time I fought him he double hit me, then gen beamed me. That's why I use gen beams after a double hit rather than ki blasts. I learned from him. Soooo, yeah. I'm pretty sure they're intended.

The beautiful thing about ESF is that we can actually control what goes on. We can outlaw exploits or things that just completely destroy the gameplay experience for other people. The real issue is when you can't, and then you're just at the mercy of the scumbags that cheat because winning is the only thing that matters.

I couldn't agree more. For anyone trying to counter this statement. Said people who set limitations in the game (which swiftly became universal) are now set, pretty much, in stone, and anyone on a server disobeying the rules generally gets kicked/banned.

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

Yeah, you can spare the condescending wisdom, dude. I've been here for years, I know what was put in the game on purpose and what wasn't. I know, I've heard that argument a million times. They put it in the game, it's how your meant to play, etc etc...but I can name a thousand things that were "put into games" that aren't fair at all.

In ESF I had my most enjoyable times when emulating DBZ's ebb and flow of combat. It's common knowledge that any type of swooping multiple hits were parts of rare combos the characters used as a dominant end to a powerful rush, and were not the entire arsenal of the characters on the show. So for me, double hitting, bouncing off invisible walls, etc., crushes the immersion of 'feeling' like DBZ.

I understand your points about adapting, Zeo. If ever there was a mantra I live by it's "adapt or die." But it isn't war, it's a game; I play it for enjoyment. So when the odds are stacked against me, and it no longer is enjoyable, why continue? I CAN do any of the techniques I consider BS; when I still played on LAN with friends I would occasionally bust one out to their noobish chagrin. But for me there is no sport in hitting an enemy that can't defend itself. No matter how 'pro' you are, you are defenseless once any of the common exploitive combos are started on you. And again, to me it not only isn't sporting, but it is no longer like DBZ, which makes me actually not enjoy myself even if I win. I consider that as unbalanced--that no matter how good you are, there is no way to escape or defend yourself during any of the techniquescommon to the community these days. So it's either not get hit at all, or get slammed into oblivion with each hit you surrender. Then add in your house rules that you guys need to keep the spamming of these moves under control, and you have people spending more time playing courthouse on the chat channel *****ing about who wallrolled who how many times...and pretty soon the whole server is arguing like babies.

In the end it all translates to one thing: the game isn't fun anymore.

I mean, no matter how I look at it, I just see those techniques as the direct fault for the decline of everything in ESF.

Besides...just because they put it in the game doesn't mean it was a smart idea. Even great people can make a game-breaking mistake in judgment.

 

[Zeonix]

I wasn't trying to be condescending . Sorry if I came off that way.

Personally, I hate dbz. That's probably why the fighting doesn't bother me. For me, I enjoy working my way up from the bottom ranks. In fact, I quit for 4 months at a time when theres no competition in order to fight people around my skill level. You're obviously not going to enjoy the game if someone has played the game far more than you and for far longer, but that's why there are pubs. People play in the pubs and every so often the one guy that stuck around enters our circle and we help him out. It's something we enjoy doing.

 

[Zeonix]

I wasn't trying to be condescending . Sorry if I came off that way.

Personally, I hate dbz. That's probably why the fighting doesn't bother me. For me, I enjoy working my way up from the bottom ranks. In fact, I quit for 4 months at a time when theres no competition in order to fight people around my skill level. You're obviously not going to enjoy the game if someone has played the game far more than you and for far longer, but that's why there are pubs. People play in the pubs and every so often the one guy that stuck around enters our circle and we help him out. It's something we enjoy doing.

When an exploitive combo is initiated, you're right, the person is screwed. That's why they're outlawed. No one is completely defenseless during the fight unless they're outmatched. Most of the time, the playing field is completely leveled. The deciding factor in the game is experience, reflexes and quick thinking. I don't know when the last time you played was, but the last time I played online (maybe 2 months ago), everyone was still playing by our rules. It's become the standard. People don't even complain all that much anymore because they realized it's futile. Now they play just to have fun without getting uptight about losing.

Besides...just because they put it in the game doesn't mean it was a smart idea. Even great people can make a game-breaking mistake in judgment.

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Skiwan]

I understand your points about adapting, Zeo. If ever there was a mantra I live by it's "adapt or die." But it isn't war, it's a game; I play it for enjoyment. So when the odds are stacked against me, and it no longer is enjoyable, why continue? I CAN do any of the techniques I consider BS; when I still played on LAN with friends I would occasionally bust one out to their noobish chagrin. But for me there is no sport in hitting an enemy that can't defend itself. No matter how 'pro' you are, you are defenseless once any of the common exploitive combos are started on you. And again, to me it not only isn't sporting, but it is no longer like DBZ, which makes me actually not enjoy myself even if I win. I consider that as unbalanced--that no matter how good you are, there is no way to escape or defend yourself during any of the techniquescommon to the community these days. So it's either not get hit at all, or get slammed into oblivion with each hit you surrender. Then add in your house rules that you guys need to keep the spamming of these moves under control, and you have people spending more time playing courthouse on the chat channel *****ing about who wallrolled who how many times...and pretty soon the whole server is arguing like babies.

Sorry but the double hit thing is intentional, whether you think its a good idea or not, its less damage than in 1.1 per hit, the double hit is a measure of skill and ki management, it would be nice if there was a stage of knockback where you could block the next hit but we're working on that. What I dont agree with is the fact the knockback suffers a time where beams/ki blasts are taken as free damage, you really cant do ****, and that imo is unbalanced, anything else is free game. As for your agruement about it not being dbz like, well, I can tell u for a fact if you're trying to save the universe from the most powerful being you're trying to hit him as much as possible, you dont wait around after every hard hit and think "If I hit him now it'd be unfair" I mean just look at Goku, he's the ultimate beam spammer . I think the combo's are one of the best idea's in esf, being able to hit around somebody like a ping pong ball should show your skill, as it would show a characters power in dbz, this is why i love esf though, because the more you improve the more innovative and complex you can be with your techniques. Not only that but it introduces an element of creativity in the game (to me anyway)

There is a lot wrong with the current gameplay, but ruling out all combo's isnt something I think would benefit the game, It should have unlimited combo's bur some more control from the defensive side (able to block a combo hit) and I think it'd be perfect

 

[Rayos]

know what's funny...there is complaining going on about how a BETA has too many glitches....hmm beta...wonder why it is that

 

[frsrblch]

Well it is something of a permanent beta... or shoukd we save our critisism until ESF 1.0 comes out?

I have no major complaints with current system, beyond the fact that fights should be longer than hit, hit, hit, blast, dead..

 

[Rayos]

we could always change the rules to use every single move that the game intended...spamming would occur but then again...it would be different than hit hit hit and at low lvls...kinda easy to stop a KKH being shot at you with a strong enough genball to punish him with...eh?

 

[Zeonix]

Uh..sorry about the double post up there. Not quite sure how that happened.

know what's funny...there is complaining going on about how a BETA has too many glitches....hmm beta...wonder why it is that

Beta 1.3 is pretty much Version 1.0. Unless you're expecting a complete overhaul, most criticisms are valid.