Lost in space
- Dec 21, 2003
- Best answers
well title says all, with about 14hrs to go r520 products will be released . It'll be interesting to see what it can do, & yes, i'm an ati fanboi.
Still got a while before X1800XT is actually released .Saiyan_Overlord said:well title says all, with about 14hrs to go r520 products will be released . It'll be interesting to see what it can do, & yes, i'm an ati fanboi.
Wait, can people even get x800xt's yet?Smith| said:Still got a while before X1800XT is actually released .
Yea, what you're thinking about is Sander Sassens who, when not invited to the X1800 private party, sent an email to ATi saying "Well, let's see if we can make stocks go down", or something. Soon after, "X1800XT" benchmarks were posted from a source inside the secret party. Well, it didn't take long for ATi to come out and say that all of Sander's info was incorrect, along with a huge post which will be edited in after I post this.Hash said:Wait, can people even get x800xt's yet?
I'm kinda interested in seeing what it can do to. I saw some less than pleasing benchmarks a little while ago, but there was some fiasco about that or something, I didn't really look into it. I'll be interested in seeing what they really can do once they come out anyways.
But even if they end up being the supreme kick-ass video card of all time, you better be able to actually BUY them when they come out. Hopefully ATI realizes that people need to be able to actually purchase their products when they come out.
Sander's story on the benchmarks:> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis
> Sent: 08 September 2005 09:39
> To: Andrzej Bania
> Subject: Re: Editors Day
> So you're telling me I'm not invited is that it? I feel an ATI column
> up, lets see if we can drop the stock price shall we?
> Sander Sassen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrzej Bania"
> To: "Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis"
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:37 AM
> Subject: RE: Editors Day
>> Hi Sander,
>> We submitted a list of media in our region about a month ago - and it
>> was down to Munich to decide where to send invites
>> They have the budget etc
>> We will have very limited places on the day - so there will definitely
>> be a tour straight behind any main event to make sure we see as many
>> people as possible :~)
>> Kind regards,
>> Andrzej Bania
>> PR and Marketing Manager
>> Northern Europe & South Africa
>> ATI Technologies
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sander Sassen - Hardware Analysis
>> Sent: 08 September 2005 09:14
>> To: Andrzej Bania
>> Subject: Editors Day
>> Will I be there is the question?
>> Sander Sassen
ATi's Response:Sander said:First off I haven't posted here to validate the scores, as I can't, but I'll describe how this came into effect and what happened afterwards. I'll just post it here once, so read it all before you blurt out further questions, as the number of 15-year old testosterone driven ******s has to be at a minimum here hence I have no problem with disclosing more detailed info without someone constantly reading between the lines and weighing every if and when.
In 2004 I was invited by ATI to a private ATI AIB briefing and asked to do a speech about how we journalists would like to work with the AIBs and ATI. The speech I gave was in my usual no holds barred fashion, which was what Chris Hook wanted, and obviously meant I did not sugarcoat anything, but just gave them my views on how we'd like to work with ATI and the AIBs.
After the speech I was directly approached by a number of AIBs that very happy that I'd been so frank and open and I befriended a few of them. After that event I kept in touch with these people and we often talked about all sorts of issues. One of the things that often came up is that they're (sometimes) not happy, frustrated is a better word perhaps, with how ATI handles PR and can understand my frustration when ATI decides to no include me in the sample pool for whatever reason. They also said that getting me a sample early would get them in trouble with ATI, as they have pretty strict guidelines about who talks to the press and who doesn't.
As a fyi, the reason they liked working with me in the first place is that I don't bull****, I tell things how I see them, whether that's in the best interest of the company I'm talking about or not. Many (and I say this with caution) other journos usually don't have such a direct approach, as they fear a decline in advertising, get their articles edited by an editor that dumbs things down, or simply don't dare to speak their mind. You can call me an arrogant prick for writing this, and maybe I am, that's just how I do things. I'm obviously not 100% right all the time, but I usually do get the discussion started, which is what I'm after, and if I did have it all wrong Iâll be the first to admit it.
So this time around, the upcoming R520 launch, I contacted ATI about three weeks ago and asked whether I was getting a sample prior to the launch and/or was invited to the launch party on Ibiza. ATI PR, came back with 'Weâre sorry you did not make the cut', so obviously I asked why, and who did. They made it very clear that press who have a willingness to work with them across every roadmap will get priority. Or rather because I have been criticizing ATI in a few articles and refused to write about other ATI products that I frankly didnât find interesting enough at that point, they'd rather not work with me. The press that did get invited apparently has written no such articles and basically was very open and willing to publish anything ATI offered.
I then got in touch with one of the AIBs and told them what happened, they were frankly shocked to hear of another ATI PR âfiascoâ as they called it and offered to help me. As I outlined above they could not send me a sample, but were willing to run a set of benchmarks on a pre-production R520 clocked at XT and Pro speeds. They did not want to tell me what board revision or what driver was used, but they did say that the scores Iâve been given are close to what the final product will be capable off. So how did I get these scores? Simple really, as is outlined in the article (the majority of people are lazy these days, they donât care to read anymore). I gave them the exact specs of the system weâve previously used to test the GeForce 7800GT, GTX and X850 XT (again outlined in the article), hence the scores for these cards are from a previous article, they did NOT run them. All they did is set the game settings as per my instructions (4x AA, 8x AF for example) copy the timedemos I sent them to the game folder and ran the timedemo scripts for these games, no more, no less.
That, in a nutshell is the story behind all this. And as mentioned in the introduction of the article the scores are provided AS-IS, I have no way to verify them. And before you start talking about integrity and credibility and all that, keep in mind that I served these scores with a disclaimer and am just providing a piece of the puzzle. These scores could be 100% accurate or completely off, but sources close to ATI, other than the AIB that ran the benches told me theyâre close. But the AIB also mentioned that final clocks could still change, hence the scores could go either way. And obviously ATI is not going to say âGood job Sander, thanks for getting the word outâ, they will always say theyâre false, regardless whether they are or arenât.
Did I have an axe to grind with ATI? Well to certain extent yes, would I then knowingly publish false information? I sure wouldnât, this is not a smear campaign. But when ATI wrote back and I quote âOnce again, you can write what you likeâ I just wanted to point out to them that thereâs other ways for me to get samples, or scores and would then simple go ahead and post them ahead of any launch date. So am I a whining kid that didnât get his ice-cream? Perhaps, the bigger issue is that they apparently cut off press that is not afraid to give them a hard time over products that have issues. If that makes me a whining kid, Iâd rather be that than not inform my readers of these issues, even if that gets me ****listed with ATI. To be honest I know many journalists are in the same boat as I am, I have gotten plenty of emails in my inbox, also from prominent websites, not just the smaller ones, these past few days that all have a similar story.
If thereâs anymore questions after this huge post Iâd be happy to answer them, and I guess someone still has to eat his hat, Iâd love to see pictures of that as well.
ATi Rep said:Traditionally, I don't post in this forum.
Although I have massive respect for the work that goes on with Beyond3D - I always feel that the forum is best left to enthusiasts in the general public as well as the hardcore technologists from ATI and other organisations.
However, the âHardware Analysis threadâ brought up several issues that I am not about to ignore and I want to set the record straight.
Firstly, at ATI we always try to work to the highest standards of professionalism and honesty possible. We have an open relationship with all of the press across the globe and we never shy away from tough questions.
We have invited over 100 of Europeâs top press to our R520 Tech Day which takes place at the end of September.
Even with so many places, we cannot invite everyone.
The question remains - how do we brief the press who cannot make it on the day.
From the time that our Tech Day, we will be working with the regional press that we missed to ensure that as many technical journalists as possible have access to the relevant information.
Journalists who have seen and tested the final product themselves, can then be certain of the facts, should write EXACTLY what they feel.
If they love what they see â great.
If they are not happy with what they see â also great.
All we ask for is honesty in the copy itself... that they 'write it as they see it'
Having read through enough of Daveâs reviews over the years â it is pretty clear that Beyond3D forum members have the same mind set as ATIâ¦
JUST GIVE US THE FACTS & LEAVE THE FICTION AT THE DOOR - WE WILL MAKE OUR OWN MINDS UP THANK YOU VERY MUCH
CONCLUSION: When it comes to R520 results, you should only believe journalists who have established a reputation for being trustworthy
Sander has 'presented the reasons' why he was NOT on the list of 100 press for our R520 Tech Day.
However, he has conveniently left off the actual reason - which he and I have discussed at length in various emails. I am not talkning about a snatched comment - these were full blown conversations - going back and forth - that clearly detail the logic behind the decision.
Not inviting him to this Tech Day is a direct result of his response to the last invitation that I sent him
I am not going in to detail here - but it was that categorical refusal to engage that led to his being left off of this list. He knows exactly what I am talking about.
Remember, he would still have been briefed before the NDA lifted - just not at our Tech Day.
Let me say this clearly, there is no 'ATI black list for press who do not write nice stories'.
We want an open and honest press who report the facts as they see them - based on their own testing - rather than second hand gossip and fairy tales.
There are a number of reasons why any company would stop engaging with an individual - but writing honest copy is not one of them.
Honest reviews serve the vendor just as much as the customer - and anything less should be rejected.
CONCLUSION: If you choose NOT to work with a vendor - don't cry 'foul' when they decide NOT to work with you
As I have pointed out, honesty is crucial.
Emailing several people at ATI to explain that you are very important, that you have a series of specific demands that must be met as soon as possible and then going on to explain just how bad a job we are doing of keeping you happy is one thing.
However, including ATI's direct competition on 'cc' in such an email is another thing entirely.
To then 'jump to the moral high ground' when your 'threats' have been exposed is laughable.
CONCLUSION: Once you pick the rules of engagement - don't get upset when your true character is revealed later on
When considering the performance of our next-generation products, you need to ask yourself one very simple question:
"Would ATI seriously bring 100 of Europeâs top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"
Sander claims that these numbers were given to him by a trusted source.
The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.
CONCLUSION: Either Sander lied - or his 'trusted source' set him up to look stupid on a global stage for printing made up results
Intelligent readers also need to be aware that the first version of the story he posted seemed to accuse every site who attends the ATI Tech Day of a fundamental inability to be independent in their testing and copy.
Needless to say that I am sure several sites have 'web-wacked' that original version and will be considering taking action to defend their names.
CONCLUSION: If you are going to accuse the largest independent publications in Europe of being bent - make sure you have enough money in the bank to retain good council
The whole thing has clearly been engineered - to what purpose no one can say for certain.
Maybe he is trying to force ATI to offer an invitation to Tech Day... which is not going to succeed as we refuse to be strong-armed.
Perhaps it was a simple tantrum at not being taken seriously... when, in fact, that was not the case at all.
Cynical people might say that it was to generate hits... but we cannot be sure of that either.
Whether it was one of these reasons - or a completely different twist of logic - one thing is for certain - it has certainly acted as an appetiser for ATI's next generation launch... and for that I have to say 'Thanks Sander !'
Having corrected several of the 'inaccuracies', I am not going to say any more on the subject because the real strength of the Beyond3D forums is their focus on technology.
How open are we going to be with our Tech Day ?
Simple, in addition to the top news & reviews sites, we have also invited one of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world to come along, get briefed and benchmark R520 however they choose - along with the best of them.
The world's top press will have hands-on our latest products in less than two weeks and you can all decide then if you prefer facts or fiction.
Thank you for taking the time to read this