Project Efficiency

[TehMuffinMan]

UDK is a double-edged sword in some repsects. it will indeed make any modders work easier if he's choosing an engine to work on but it comes with only half a dozen textures and a single mesh, leaving you to have to build all your content from scratch. my initial gripe was trying to emphasise that, even if the coding is more work on HL1, the complexity runs much further than picking scripts and pushing buttons in UDK and by extension requires more effort over a wider spectrum of developer aspects.


I suppose we can blame most of this discussion on the fact that this is a thread with what seems like three debates going on at once. We have it titled about efficiency (something outside of my concern) with quotes about lighting (again, outside of my concern since its being addressed) and discussion between mods and industry swinging like a wild pendulum with each post.

 

[sub]

That depends, you would have to spend a lot less time building already implemented features such as bloom. But you would have to spend extra time learning how to use new mapping techniques for example, that were previously not needed because HL1 simply didn't support them. Which in case would make it a lot more efficient in terms of personal growth, to learn to work with Unreal, as it will be a lot more likely you will need those skills if you were to continue working in the gaming industry as a full-time job rather than a hobby.

That's not really true. Hammer has basically been thrown out, in favor of using 3dsmax to create maps. Model based maps are something that not even the source engine supports at the moment (which is holding the source engine back, really...)

In terms of coding, you're working with C++ on HL1, which is by far the most popular language used to create games, and arguably the most powerful to boot. In terms of modeling, I think that regardless of what engine you're on, you're going to be using 3dsmax or maya. I don't know much about animating, so I can't speak for that

 

[Sicron]

Stuff like modeling, animating and such (and mapping? Don't know what proffesionals use to map?) are always interchangable, and I suppose it doesn't really matter if you work on a 10 year old engine or a brand new one other than polycounts and maybe being able to use a couple of different features.

But although coding in HL1 uses C++ and coding on a new engine will probably use C++ as well, there is a huge difference in the stuff that you code. In ESF, the team added a 'fake' bloom, while nowadays, most advanced engines use true High Dynamic Range lightning, which changes the bloom depending on if you are going in a shadow or are coming out a shadow and are being 'blinded' by the sunlight. Making regular [fake] bloom useless in todays engines. It's more of an eye candy feature. While HDR is there to simulate a real life lightening process.

All experience gained with coding the bloom is 'useless' now (okay it isn't, because you learned how to code it and you can probably use that experience for something else) because we have far more advanced, precoded systems in todays graphics engines.

 

[KYnetiK]

I wouldnt use the complexity of Ravens lighting systems as an arguing point without reading the code.

Id also like to point out that just because you only created a simple lighting engine in one system, doesnt mean you dont have the skills to create more expansive lighting. Not every program that a coder writes requires the whole nine yards of their talent. Especially when such extravagances dont serve the gameplay, and are more likely to inhibit the quality of said gameplay. The embellishments of next-gen games only serve to fulfil whats required to penetrate an aesthetic market.

The ability to 'drag and drop' prefabricated code doesnt demonstrate you have quality skills as a programmer. That just demonstrates you understand logic and are good at using basic computer skills. I hate to make such a blanket statement, but every programmer I know has an ego. All the really talented, prodigal programmers I know have a big ego, and a great drive to challenge themselves and make a point that they are capable of crazy things with the methods of a puritan perfectionist.

 

[RavenTrunks]

ok, I'll say this and this is pretty much what I think and probably holds true.

The people that do work on the mod know for a fact everything stated her. They know about the whole time in to profit out ratio, they know using an engine that already had everything implimented that they visually hacked would be time savers... They know all that jazz..

"Take a look at what i turned that piece of **** into! No really, take a ****ing look!!"

That's why ladies...

This game looks like something that was realeased within the last year or so. And what was it on? Something that wasn't ment for it.

Its things like these that get in the guinness world records. why not? take a look at the things in there and you would see its very probable

 

[TehMuffinMan]

Now i think you might be giving a wee bit too much props to 1.3 there RT. Games at ESF's graphical level have existed for plenty of years.

2005 you had Dragon Quest,
2004 you had Unreal 2004
2003 you had Zelda Windwaker
2002 you had Metroid Prime,

My opinion would be that ESF lies around 2002 as moddable mainstream games were about as detailed as currently shown by ESF. Even so, adding up to 4 years of design standard to an engine is still very rare if not unforeseen and should be applauded.

 

[Synth]

I've always assumed that it would be easier to code on a newer engine, since coding itself is all about trial and error.

So, a newer engine would have more of the trials and errors out of the way, than an older engine.

Using that philosophy with modding, games like ESF are more challenging... due to having to do more with less.

 

[TehMuffinMan]

Assumptions can be misleading at times though. you could argue that coding is actually more challenging in a newer engine, as you will inevitably be working on new and more complex aspects.

A year spent hacking in 3rd party light code in one engine could be a year spent implementing and refining hardware tessellation in another if you catch my drift.

I suppose, ultimately, work is how complex your willing to take it make it, regardless of engine.

 

[Doormat]

the thing is.. ESF is started on HL and most likely will die on thesame engine.. and maybe Raven and the rest of our coders get more fun and experience modding the current engine.. don`t blow a bubble from just a few sentences.. If u have a hard time understadning ppls oppinions it`s your problem..

 

[TehMuffinMan]

the thing is.. ESF is started on HL and most likely will die on thesame engine.. and maybe Raven and the rest of our coders get more fun and experience modding the current engine.. don`t blow a bubble from just a few sentences.. If u have a hard time understadning ppls oppinions it`s your problem..

Erm, as i posted repeatively i've no concern about ESF dying on this engine, it would be madness to attempt a jump at this stage. as with the past five pages i'm more about the underestimation of newer engines. also my post was my opinion. Irony much?

 

[Glode]

don`t blow a bubble from just a few sentences.. If u have a hard time understadning ppls oppinions it`s your problem..

I`ll tell u what`s wrong... ESF is NOT finnished yet, so alot of stuff is missing, and alot of stuff is`nt finnished yet. so please stop bringing out every tiny **** you notice, it`s getting annoying to hear only complaints..

funky stuff tbh Doormat, you just ripped yourself a knew one :X

 

[EncorE_SX]

Its funny how you guys can whine about totally irrelevant, under-the-hood stuff which are not meant to be known by public at all during the gameplay exp.

I'm programming professionaly for money nowadays after finishing my college and **** ( hence I quit for a while after whole EVS crew fell apart ), and I sure as hell wouldn't be so nice to offer any insight at all of what's going on behind the curtain if someone would be whining at my style of doing something.

Implementing alienated programming, or even possibly converting a MODIFICATION of ONE game into another scripting environment is pretty much unreal amount of work ( although there's few steps to make it easier ), I'd say stop complaining about stuff like that and let the team worry about it.

I've scooped through that topic and basically you want to go from a solution which offers ~85% performance and next to none resource hogging into a full 100% solution which would drastically increase resource consumption. It might just be me, but I'd take the inferrior solution over superior if its THAT much more optimized and better to use ( e.g. Win XP vs Vista, I never even thought of swapping my XP until W7 came out - when something is done optimized and bugless, its a piece of software you use - you dont use flashy and buggy stuff unless you're retarded ).

 

[Deathshot]

Its funny how you guys can whine about totally irrelevant, under-the-hood stuff which are not meant to be known by public at all during the gameplay exp.

I'm programming professionaly for money nowadays after finishing my college and **** ( hence I quit for a while after whole EVS crew fell apart ), and I sure as hell wouldn't be so nice to offer any insight at all of what's going on behind the curtain if someone would be whining at my style of doing something.

Implementing alienated programming, or even possibly converting a MODIFICATION of ONE game into another scripting environment is pretty much unreal amount of work ( although there's few steps to make it easier ), I'd say stop complaining about stuff like that and let the team worry about it.

I've scooped through that topic and basically you want to go from a solution which offers ~85% performance and next to none resource hogging into a full 100% solution which would drastically increase resource consumption. It might just be me, but I'd take the inferrior solution over superior if its THAT much more optimized and better to use ( e.g. Win XP vs Vista, I never even thought of swapping my XP until W7 came out - when something is done optimized and bugless, its a piece of software you use - you dont use flashy and buggy stuff unless you're retarded ).

Holy ****... A dead guy has just been revived...

 

[Damaera]

Holy ****... A dead guy has just been revived...

He never died. Can we get back on topic now?

 

[Deathshot]

He never died. Can we get back on topic now?

Yes. Sorry. Just amazing to see people from 2004 coming back.

Maybe Evossj4 will get finished. Lmao


But I have to agree with Encore. Personally if someone whined about a game, I would IP/Steam ID ban them from it and say Lol play now.

 

[TehMuffinMan]

So would I, but y'no nobody here is actually whining about ESF so straying from the point a bit are we?

I'm still bemused why people are going on as if i'm taking a jab at ESF >_> stop painting a false picture of me because you don't agree with my points and actually take the time to read. my whole part in this discussion was about the flawed logic behind ESF>UT3mod.

you guys have all done a brilliant job with the project and i'm by no means trying to debate that. My "beef" is with several peoples stance that pulling apart a ten year old engine is more complex and held in higher regard than pulling apart a more recent engine, that working with half life 1 is more complex than working with UT3.

The reason i've not bothered responding to your comments is because they are of no relevance. As previously stated i'm by no means critising ESF for its work efficiency, nor am i disgruntled about the use of HL1 and I hold nothing but praise in that regard having watched its development since the alpha days so stop putting words in my mouth.

I'll say that for the third time, I am NOT critising the development times. third times a charm no? as you aptly put, get over it.

my entire discussion, and the previous comments made were solely about the general feeling by a small minority that next-gen engines are easy modding in comparison to much older engines. triggered by someone throwing toys out of the pram about having crits posted on updates.

really, despite posting multiple times pointing that out you still yammer on as if its the case, i might as well bang my head against a brick wall.

 

[Skiwan]

Thing is that esf has changed the code of half life to such an extent that only the net code and model formats are still somewhat true to the old half life code. It's prettymuch a new engine now.

Thats the thing, it's almost as if this engine has been completely rebuilt, also tools have been built to use/create things for the engine too. Whereas using another engine such as UT3, you have professionally built tools and methods to work with that are tried tested and established. Not saying Unreal mods are any less complicated, but the work behind ESF to this date is quite astonishing, the coders have done things I didn't even knew were possible on half life, and that's why its quite jaw dropping to see the progress been made.

 

[DarktoothDKD]

alright alright.. you guys wanna know the secret to efficiency in ANY engine or game development? People who work on their tasks and projects... now where the hell are my damn models!? I animate faster than modellers dammit! >.< 250 animations!

so the efficient choice.. is the workers themsevles.. can they keep up and give great quality over their work.. thats the efficiency.. Engines.. bleh. Personally, I dont really care as long as it works and its bad ass... Coders can make anything happen in anything.. and when you have fast VERY intellegent coders, you just need a fast and talented art team...


so my point is...
the most efficient way of development over engines, work, etc... have a talented crew... XD

 

[wheres_]

I would be nice to get a rundown of your work pipeline- although I'm sure it's more of an evolution process than a straight down the line production.

 

[DarktoothDKD]

Id rather not have that brought up.. its just gonna cause more annoying chatter...

Lets keep the dev process to ourselves and you guys just worry about the outcome.