****ing seals part II, or "I demand a recount!"

Does tax money belong to the tax payer or does it belong to the government?

  • Tax Payer

    Votes: 11 55.0%
  • Government

    Votes: 9 45.0%

  • Total voters
    20
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Spunky demanded a non biased thread where we each present our argument.

The argument: Does tax money belong to the tax payer or does it belong to the government.

Spunkies argument: Once you pay the government through taxes, it's not yours any more.

My argument: Any money paid through taxes does not belong to the government, but belongs to the tax payers.
 
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For some reason, the last thread became about how the government spends tax money which wasn't what we were arguing, nor voting on. So this is a recount. Keep your responses related to the question at hand.
 
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It's directly related to the issue at hand, though. When the government spends money irresponsibly, people become upset because we feel that their wasting our money.
 
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It's perfectly okay for some people to feel that way. But I believe once the money leaves your hands, it's the government's money. Sure, you can tell them how stupid they are for misusing it and petition for change, but it's technically their money. If we're in debt, they might borrow money through taxes, in which case, in my opinion, you can call it your money. But otherwise, it's their money.
 
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If that were true, people wouldn't become upset when the government misuse the money because hey, it's not their investment.
 
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I just said people petition for change for things they don't agree with, including how the government spends its money. But that doesn't make it their money. It's technically the government's money.
 
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once you give your money to the government as taxes, it's their money.

HOWEVER.

they are elected officials, who are representing YOU the tax payer, and should be spending the money responsibly on things YOU the taxpayer, need.
 
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Right, nobody is arguing that. I agree completely with that. But, it's their money. :p
 
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One of the responsibilities that the government has is to collect some of our money and spend it on projects that benefit us. The government is it's own entity, yes, but it's an entity that exists strictly to serve the people. By this very fact, any money collected by the government in truth does not belong to the government, but to the people who that government represents.

You've told me on AIM that you agree with me on this. Take the next leap. Taxpayer money = the peoples money. You can end this, Spunky. You have the power.
 
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I agree that government represents the people. However, they're elected to make decisions for the people. They're their own entity as you say, and therefore can do anything they like with the money they collect through taxes. It's their money, but you can petition to change the way they spend it. How many times am I going to have to say it? I've already said there's nothing wrong with perceiving it as being your money, I just want you to realize that it technically isn't.
 
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wikipaedophile said:
The Four "R"s
Taxation has four main purposes or effects: Revenue, Redistribution, Repricing, and Representation.[3]
The main purpose is revenue: taxes raise money to spend on roads, schools and hospitals, and on more indirect government functions like market regulation or justice systems. This is the most widely known function.[3]
A second is redistribution. Normally, this means transferring wealth from the richer sections of society to poorer sections. This function is widely accepted in most democracies, although the extent to which this should happen is always controversial.[3]
A third purpose of taxation is repricing. Taxes are levied to address externalities: tobacco is taxed, for example, to discourage smoking, and many people advocate policies such as implementing a carbon tax.[3]
A fourth, consequential effect of taxation in its historical setting has been representation.[3] The American revolutionary slogan "no taxation without representation" implied this: rulers tax citizens, and citizens demand accountability from their rulers as the other part of this bargain. Several studies have shown that direct taxation (such as income taxes) generates the greatest degree of accountability and better governance, while indirect taxation tends to have smaller effects.[4][5]
should help one of you.
 
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therefore can do anything they like with the money they collect through taxes. It's their money
They can't do whatever they like with the tax payers money.
---

Nancy Pelosi, Chair: Let me call the meeting to order. It is 3:00. I would like to welcome you all back from Spring Break. Unfortunately the minutes for the March 8 meeting are not yet available. Our administrative assistant, LaKeeta White, is still on maternity leave, so we have not been able to post those minutes. We do have notes from the March 8 meeting that are available on the Senate Home Page. We do have minutes of the February 8 meeting of the Senate, and I would like to ask for someone to move that they be approved. Jim. Do I here a second? Rik is seconding, okay. Are there any additions or corrections to the minutes? Hearing none, I am going to rule the minutes approved as posted. Moving on, we have Senator Smith here to discuss his bill detailing what we will be doing with the extra revenue we plan to achieve by raising taxes next year. Senator Smith, you have the floor.

Senator Smith: Senator Pelosi, thank you very much. Getting straight to business, I am the co-sponsor of the "Government Employee Transportation Spending Act[S.1946]". If passed, this bill will use the governments money to pay for a fleet of helicopters for every senator to travel to and from work. We should not be forced to sit through traffic every . . .

---

Ridiculous, sure, but if the above situation ever occurred, the bill would be shot down and the sponsor of the bill would be voted out of office. It's one of the ways the American people control how their money is spent. The very fact that the government can't spend the money as they please should prove that they do not own it. Afterall, if I was a millionaire, I'd be able to buy that helicopter. The government can't because they don't own the money, we do.

It is insanity to even think that the governments money is their own and does not belong to the American people. Insanity.

We're going in circles here. People become upset when the government misuses money. This is because people are making an investment when they pay taxes. By your own admittance [Check the AIM conversation in the first thread], if the government buys a fleet of helicopters for every senator to be used as transportation to and from work, it is not an investment that the American taxpayer is making, it is an investment that the government is making. Sure, the government decided upon that investment, but we decided upon the people who made that decision and we have the power to remove them from office. Plus, we're the ones who are actually fronting the money for the investment. You know, because we paid taxes.

I've said this in the previous thread, but I'll say it again - If the government owes 10 billion dollars in debt to China, in reality it is the average American who owes money to China, not the goverment. This debt is 10 billion dollars that did not exist before, 10 billion dollars that must be paid off. The only way to pay it off is by either taxing us more or cutting back on other government expenditures which would be indirectly or directly benefiting the average American.

I really don't know what else to say. You're wrong. So are the five other people who voted with you. Btw, I'd really like to hear some different opinions on why the money we pay in taxes does not belong to us.
 
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Sub, listen to me very closely. Nobody is arguing that you can control the way the government spends that money. Nobody. But it's their money. They can decide how to use it, or we can petition and try to force them to use it how we please. But still, we pay taxes to the government to take care of us and talk to other nations for us, basically. We're essentially paying for a service, like any other. Whether you agree with me or choose to perceive it as your own money doesn't matter. It is technically their money.

John Adams said:
Senator Smith: Senator Pelosi, thank you very much. Getting straight to business, I am the co-sponsor of the "Government Employee Transportation Spending Act[S.1946]". If passed, this bill will use the governments money to pay for a fleet of helicopters for every senator to travel to and from work. We should not be forced to sit through traffic every . . .
Notice he doesn't say, "If passed, this bill will use the peoples money." That is ALL I'm arguing here. That's it, Sub.
 
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Belongs to the government, what else is the point of paying taxes? If there were no taxes, a lot of the government's income would be cut off and it won't have the money to support the country.

Of course, a good chunk of that money will be misused, but that doesn't mean it's -all- misused.
 
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I think you're both trying to confuse people, and you need to stop.

The first thread had your IM conversation talking about the 80,000 dollars that the government used to pay for 2 meaningless seals. Putting that information into a thread that has to do with these 2 arguments is automatically, whether you want it to or not, going to put "how the government uses the money" into the argument. Next time don't put it in if you don't want feedback on it.

With that said, if you break it down plain and simple; the money you give to the government belongs to the government, if only temporarily. You can get some, if not all of it back depending on your financial status.

To be honest, I think this is an argument that neither of you will win. You can easily argue that it's the governments, you can easily argue that it belongs to the citizens of the U.S, and you can even argue that it's both of theirs.

I will say this, once tax season is over, any money you did not receive back from the government is no longer yours, and never will be. After tax season, the taxes you pay to the government, in all technicalities are both yours and the governments. Yes you don't have that money on you now, but it's definitely possible to get some or all of that money back. I know every year I get every cent of my taxes back.

If I could, I'd agree with both of you. It's both yours and the governments. First it's yours, then it goes to the government and it's theirs, then you do your tax forms and get some or all back, what you got back is then yours, and what you didn't is theirs.

If I had to pick a side, for the same reason as my other thread, I'd still go with Sub, simply because, again, it's not as simple as paying for a hamburger. Hamburgers are simple, you buy one for a dollar, you give up that dollar for a delectable treat, eat it, and you're well on your way. You're not going to see that dollar again.

Taxes, you care where that money goes to. You care what the government does with that money. So in a sense, you have some control over that money. If everyone in the nation says "uh uh oh no you didn't!" the government will be like 'well ****' and probably fix it in some way. Or at least should.
 
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Spunky and I disagree on whether or not how the government uses tax money matters, it has nothing to do with trying to confuse people. He is of the opinion that it doesn't matter how the government uses the money since the money belongs to the government and they can spend it on whatever they want with it. I am of the opinion that they can't do whatever they want with the money because the money doesn't belong to them. If you look at where the argument started

Amnestometh (1:12:02 AM): So much money for two seals who got eaten in front of their investors.
Amnestometh (1:12:07 AM): THat is hilarious
Hybrid094 (1:12:21 AM): you're the investor
Hybrid094 (1:12:23 AM): i'm the investor
Amnestometh (1:12:40 AM): The hell I am, the government is the investor. Taxes belong to the government.

We're really arguing who the investor is when the government pays for something, which in turn lead to who really owns tax money. I'd like to be able to agree with you about us both being right, but I can't do that. I think the notion that the government owns our money is silly.

Sub, listen to me very closely. Nobody is arguing that you can control the way the government spends that money. Nobody. But it's their money. They can decide how to use it, or we can petition and try to force them to use it how we please. But still, we pay taxes to the government to take care of us and talk to other nations for us, basically. We're essentially paying for a service, like any other. Whether you agree with me or choose to perceive it as your own money doesn't matter. It is technically their money.
If I can control how the money is spent, how is it not mine [when I say I/mine, I'm speaking for everyone]? Can I control how Jim down the block spends his 5 dollars? No, because it's not my money, but I have influence over tax money.

Tax goes to the government with strings attached - These strings are that they must spend the money on something beneficial for our society or we will exert our influence over government and over that money to make a change. It must go to a cause that is beneficial to our society because we own the money. I'm not sure exactly how it goes, but there is a saying that government workers really work for you, the people. The president isn't employed by the government, he is employed by us.

Notice he doesn't say, "If passed, this bill will use the peoples money." That is ALL I'm arguing here. That's it, Sub.
I wrote it like that on purpose to show you how ridiculous it is to believe the government can spend the money on whatever they like because hey, it's theirs.
 
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Answer:

None of the money is yours or the governments. It all still belongs to the banks that you borrowed it from.
 
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Answer:

None of the money is yours or the governments. It all still belongs to the banks that you borrowed it from.
People who believe that garbage are gullible and should learn to think for themselves. Or, to better put it, think 4 themselves. I'll get to you in a second.

John Adams said:
Amnestometh (1:12:40 AM): The hell I am, the government is the investor. Taxes belong to the government.
If this is the argument, then Spunky is wrong, the people are the investors.

But you see. You're confusing people again. This argument went from who owns the tax money, to who the investor is. You're changing it around =/ I can't give you a valid point when you're not making your argument clear cut.

Spunky said:
That's the only answer I'm really looking for. Of course you care where the money goes, anybody would. I'm just saying the money isn't yours once you give it to the government. That's all. Nothing more. I agree with Sub on everything else, that's an entirely separate issue from the argument at hand. D:
Implying the argument is about who owns the tax money.

John Adams said:
The argument: Does tax money belong to the tax payer or does it belong to the government.
John Adams said:
Spunky and I disagree on whether or not how the government uses tax money matters, it has nothing to do with trying to confuse people. He is of the opinion that it doesn't matter how the government uses the money since the money belongs to the government and they can spend it on whatever they want with it. I am of the opinion that they can't do whatever they want with the money because the money doesn't belong to them. If you look at where the argument started

Amnestometh (1:12:02 AM): So much money for two seals who got eaten in front of their investors.
Amnestometh (1:12:07 AM): THat is hilarious
Hybrid094 (1:12:21 AM): you're the investor
Hybrid094 (1:12:23 AM): i'm the investor
Amnestometh (1:12:40 AM): The hell I am, the government is the investor. Taxes belong to the government.

We're really arguing who the investor is when the government pays for something, which in turn lead to who really owns tax money. I'd like to be able to agree with you about us both being right, but I can't do that. I think the notion that the government owns our money is silly.
How do you not see where I'm confused? One minute you're saying the argument is about who owns the money, and the next it's who invests in it.

They're TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. The money doesn't have to be mine to use it. I can take money from my moms purse and go spend it on something. Was the money ever mine? No. But I used it. I invested it in something. If someone said "hey dude, I hear you're in a tight bind, let me loan you some cash" that money is never yours, unless they rightfully give it to you. If you take a loan out from the bank, you eventually have to pay it back and then some. The investee and who owns the money are two different subjects. Get your argument straight and make sure the people you expect a reply from to know what the hell you're talking about before you post.

It's annoying to give you a well thought out opinion only for it to be completely negated by the fact that you couldn't properly present an argument. Unless you don't know what you're arguing about in the first place.

As for Optional. You need to stop watching youtube, or wherever you get your information. When I go to work, and I get my paycheck, are you going to sit there and tell me that when I cash that check, that money belongs to the bank? I think not. That money is mine, I worked for it, I earned it. The only money that belongs to a bank is money created when you take out a loan. And tax money doesn't come from loans, it comes from the U.S citizens wallets. There's a difference. Just because money goes into a bank, doesn't mean the bank owns it. The bank is just holding on to it for you. I don't have to pay the bank back when I take out money from my checking account.

But if you want two answers for two arguments here would be my input:

The Investor: The U.S citizen, they gave the money to the government, the government paid for whatever. Whatever the government paid for came from the U.S Citizens wallets. Plain and simple.

Who owns the money: Can go either way. It just depends on the opinion of the person. You won't get a straight answer. Me personally? It goes both ways, the people influence the government on how to spend the money, the government actually spends it. So in essence, they both own it.
 
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If this is the argument, then Spunky is wrong, the people are the investors.

But you see. You're confusing people again. This argument went from who owns the tax money, to who the investor is. You're changing it around =/ I can't give you a valid point when you're not making your argument clear cut.
The argument started out as follows: If the government puts money towards something, who are the investors? Is it the government or is it the people. Spunky believes it is the government, I believe its the people.

This is what I'm mainly upset about. Yes, I'm also upset about him believing the government owns our money and I have argued with him a lot about this in the thread, but this ultimately can't be proved or disproved, it's open for interpretation. I do not think who the investors are is open to interpretation, though.

How do you not see where I'm confused? One minute you're saying the argument is about who owns the money, and the next it's who invests in it.

They're TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. The money doesn't have to be mine to use it. I can take money from my moms purse and go spend it on something. Was the money ever mine? No. But I used it. I invested it in something. If someone said "hey dude, I hear you're in a tight bind, let me loan you some cash" that money is never yours, unless they rightfully give it to you. If you take a loan out from the bank, you eventually have to pay it back and then some. The investee and who owns the money are two different subjects. Get your argument straight and make sure the people you expect a reply from to know what the hell you're talking about before you post.

It's annoying to give you a well thought out opinion only for it to be completely negated by the fact that you couldn't properly present an argument. Unless you don't know what you're arguing about in the first place.
Did I make it clear now?

The Investor: The U.S citizen, they gave the money to the government, the government paid for whatever. Whatever the government paid for came from the U.S Citizens wallets. Plain and simple.

Who owns the money: Can go either way. It just depends on the opinion of the person. You won't get a straight answer. Me personally? It goes both ways, the people influence the government on how to spend the money, the government actually spends it. So in essence, they both own it.
Contrary to what I stated previously, I'm cool with ending it on that if Spunky is. I still think it's silly to believe the government owns the money, but I'll admit it's semantics and open for interpretation. Who the investors are isn't.
 
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Tax money belongs to the people, we've merely hired some government officials to redistribute it. The government can and will be held accountable by the people on how they spend the money. This would not be the case for anyone spending their own money.
 

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