America: Not as stupid as you'd like to believe

[Zeonix]

There are plenty of people willing to try to take America down a peg on this forum and others I visit so I figured I'd throw in some good news to mingle with all of the terrible and evil things we do (including but not limited to eating people and drinking their blood as we pray to the Devil).

For quite a long time, both Europeans and domestic politicians alike have told us that our education system is a failure and we're falling desperately behind while other nations pull ahead. We were told children who grew up in urban areas and who attended public school were sure to become under-achievers, or would in all likelihood be less intelligent or less "academically-inclined" than their international peers, as well as students from various other states, but even then, all of our other students were far behind their international counterparts. Our IQ was dropping nearly as quickly as our test scores, and there weren't nearly enough students taking (and passing) science and math courses. We were doomed.

And we swallowed it up whole.

Well, they decided to do a study on this and see what the truth of the matter is and lo and behold! The shocking truth as brought to you by businessweek!

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_827398_page_2.htm

I'm hoping you read the entire article before you read this part. Are we doing a hell of a lot better than pretty much everyone anticipated? I think so. Are we at the top of our game? Ha, no. While it's nice to know our education system hasn't completely failed our youth, we also need to realize that it's still in sorry shape. The No Child Left Behind crap doesn't help anyone, and we're not learning the kind of advanced math and science that we should be, at least on a high school level (based completely on my experience and nothing more). I'm happy to say I'm actually learning new material in college now, but I feel like pretty much everything I know I've learned outside of school and on my own time, mostly because I'm curious by nature. I hope in the future (the very near future), our youth will have better opportunities to learn than what I had to put up with.

All of that said, I'm content with their findings. Now stop saying all Americans are stupid unless you're willing to launch your own independent investigation.

 

[Chakra-X]

Vox haven't you heard? Hating on America is what's in now!

I do not know what to say about the education system in America, but that article was reassuring. I think I go to a very good public highschool, but I've been to it all my life so I don't know what to compare it to. I remember visiting a high school in the city, and the quality of the infrastructure seemed much lower than mine, if that's anything to base it on.

My school has a lot of kids in honors and AP courses, and yet my grade didn't make NAEP =/.

But how much further can they push high school education? Going to college sometimes isn't enough now. Things that were learned in college years ago are learned in highschool now. It's progress, but how much more pressure can students take?

And these kinds of talks make education seem like a bland, collective, machine that is supposed to pump out scientists and engineers to keep humanity evolving. Obviously that is not how it actually is, and those types of fields are critical, but it feels like governments want their children to study their asses off for 12 years, then study their asses off even more for another 4-8 years, so they can work their asses off in a job that may not even be guaranteed, or maybe even outsource.

Then again I am a high school student, so my recent work with grades, colleges, etc may make me biased.

 

[Zeonix]

I'm of the opinion our particular government would rather have a country full of moronic sheep than intelligent human beings capable of thought. After all, that's the kind of thing that leads to rebellions, be it an all-out war or just voting for the "wrong" candidate. You know, the kind of person who wants the people to run the government rather than familial dynasties.

People have more than enough reasons to hate the United States, as a nation. I have no problem with them hating our government or it's actions because we hate our government even more than they do. It's when that hatred of government mutates into hatred of an entire populace that I become annoyed, especially when that hatred is completely unfounded and illogical, or can be found in their country as well. I'm not a fan of hypocrisy, you see. If you're going to hate us, you'd better have a good reason for it. Calling all of us "stupid" just isn't going to cut it anymore when all of the evidence is to the contrary.

 

[Spunky]

Good find, Zeo. I'm tired of everyone calling America stupid without a ground to stand on.

 

[LionHeart]

Good find, Zeo. I'm tired of everyone calling America stupid without a ground to stand on.

Good find, Spunky. lol zeo's back

 

[Spunky]

Good find, Spunky. lol zeo's back

Uhh, he's been back for a few weeks (longer?). I guess not everyone knows it yet.

 

[Zeonix]

I'd appreciate it if we could stay on topic. I realize this thread probably won't get very many responses because it isn't demonizing America, but it was worth a shot.

 

[dan_esf_fanatic]

I'm of the opinion our particular government would rather have a country full of moronic sheep than intelligent human beings capable of thought. After all, that's the kind of thing that leads to rebellions, be it an all-out war or just voting for the "wrong" candidate

Thank God, someone realized it. For the first (or maybe second) time in my life, I agree with you. That is exactly the problem. Now, as for people calling you stupid, I don't actually think that anyone meant that your IQ has nationally hit rock-bottom or anything like that, it's just that the majority of your people, compared to people from other countries, is uneducated. You can be intellegent all you like, but without knowledge it's useless. And your schools aren't meant for studying - they're meant for infusing crap into your brains. Starting from your early schooling, the first thing you learn in school is that 'I pledge alliegance to the flag of the United States of America' crap, that's where it begins. You're led to believe that you're the greatest nation in the world and that everyone else is beneath you, so if you think that 'why change America by rebellions when we're already the greatest nation in the world?'. Praise the exceptions, I always say. You're one of them, Zeo, but one isn't enough. To truly create an ideal society as you're led to believe you have, you have to do something about your government. And that something has to be more than saying 'we hate the ****ers', if you hate them, get rid of them! That's what your guns are for, right?

 

[Skiwan]

I don't think you're quite getting the basis of the stereotype of how "Americans are stupid" is generated, the fact is that it comes from how blindly patriotic Americans seem. Not saying it's bad to be patriotic, its a good thing, it increases a nations happiness and inspires people to work hard, but this patriotism that can sometimes lead to Americans to not see anything past their own greatness, to reject ideals and new ways of thinking from other countries/cultures because the American way is superior. In general I have found Americans believe firmly in their way of life, and they seem very confident and happy, In a nation that thrives on competition and success I expect nothing less. You must understand though arrogance is seen by others to be quite close to ignorance, being critical, especially of oneself is the best form of learning available. The inability to be self critical makes you seem blindly ignorant to other nations, The way people criticise your country is because of this.

The above is just a stereotypical explanation, not an attack or to be understood as a fact, just an insight into the way your country at times is perceived.

I have no doubt that schools in America perform well, in the UK its my opinion that every year for the past 10 or so years, things are being "dumbed down" so the national averages of passing students have gone up, however from the American education system (from what little I know) has held strong for quite a while, I don't know the ins and outs at all, but it certainly seems like a tighter run ship.

 

[Zeonix]

Thank God, someone realized it. For the first (or maybe second) time in my life, I agree with you. That is exactly the problem. Now, as for people calling you stupid, I don't actually think that anyone meant that your IQ has nationally hit rock-bottom or anything like that, it's just that the majority of your people, compared to people from other countries, is uneducated. You can be intellegent all you like, but without knowledge it's useless. And your schools aren't meant for studying - they're meant for infusing crap into your brains. Starting from your early schooling, the first thing you learn in school is that 'I pledge alliegance to the flag of the United States of America' crap, that's where it begins. You're led to believe that you're the greatest nation in the world and that everyone else is beneath you, so if you think that 'why change America by rebellions when we're already the greatest nation in the world?'. Praise the exceptions, I always say. You're one of them, Zeo, but one isn't enough. To truly create an ideal society as you're led to believe you have, you have to do something about your government. And that something has to be more than saying 'we hate the ****ers', if you hate them, get rid of them! That's what your guns are for, right?

RTFA.

It clearly states we, as a nation, aren't uneducated in the least, especially from an academic standpoint. The facts are against you and everyone who feels the need to making sweeping generalizations against an entire population, Dan. I don't even know what you mean by our classes not being meant for studying (you've never taken a single course in my country). How does one expect to pass high level mathematics and science courses if one does no study? Osmosis? That works some of the time, but it isn't a dependable method for learning new material. If our courses were designed to infuse our brains with information so that we wouldn't need to study, that'd be awesome. However, it simply isn't the case.

The first thing I learned in school was the alphabet. We covered the pledge of allegiance, but it was never very important. If you didn't want to say it, you didn't have to. The teachers might not like it if you didn't say it, but there was nothing they could do about it other than frown.

We aren't taught that we're the best thing since sliced bread. We're taught that while we're a powerful nation, we are still a very young nation and have much to learn. We're taught to look the past in order to avoid certain futures. We're taught to appreciate what other countries have done for us (Thanks, France) and what they've done for the world. We're given the larger picture. Are we taught to love our country? Are we taught to love our government? Are we taught to hate other nations? Not by our schools. Perhaps by our parents, but not by our teachers (although some teachers feel it necessary to spout their opinions at every interval).

We obviously don't think we're the greatest nation in the universe, therefore we don't have to change anything. If we did, we wouldn't want to oust our president and vice president, change our education system, change our health care system, change where our money is spent, change our foreign policy, and so on and so forth.

None of us think what we have is an ideal society. I personally believe we're on the right path to creating one, but I also believe there are multiple paths to get there as well as multiple paths to completely destroy what we've worked so hard to gain.

I'm all for getting rid of those in power, but there's a disease that is affecting the entire world. It's called apathy. And even if there wasn't apathy in our world, why would you want to us to murder each other over a president who has about a year left in office? Why are you condoning murder, Dan? Why are you condoning genocide?

I don't understand how someone could be so full of generalizations and still consider themselves to be educated. You're a walking, talking propaganda machine, Dan. Nothing I say will help you realize that but one day you'll wake up in much the same way I hope the rest of my countrymen wake up. I long for that day, and hope to see it in my lifetime.

@ David: There's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. After 9/11, Americans became extremely nationalistic. There's no doubt about that. Before 9/11 though, America was pretty much the uncontested super power, and it was THE place to be if you wanted to make loads of money. When you have foreigners migrating to your country because they believe they'll have opportunities here that weren't available to them elsewhere, it gives the native population an ego boost. Surely things must not have been very good where they came from if everyone is coming here for schooling and for jobs and they all seem so happy here. Our perception of ourselves was influenced by the foreigners' perception of our country.

But it seems Europeans are maintaining the position that Americans have not changed at all since the 90's or since 9/11 occurred. Believe it or not, we're more critical of our nation and ourselves than others are led to believe. It's only when outsiders attack us that we form a wall and unite in a seemingly nationalistic wall of ignorance. I'm sure the same happens everywhere else. I can talk about and judge my people but you can't for x reason. We're out to change our nation and to get back to our roots...although hopefully we don't choose to just live in the past rather than use what we've learned and add to that in order to ensure we have a future.

Really though, when Americans are criticized for taking a shower once a day, the problem is no longer that we, as a nation, were nationalistic. It's just blind hatred. And yes, I've been criticized for taking showers daily by Europeans. I don't get it and I'm sure they don't either, but it's annoying and it's gotten to the point where I can't do anything without being an evil American out to take over the world.

 

[dan_esf_fanatic]

I'm all for getting rid of those in power, but there's a disease that is affecting the entire world. It's called apathy. And even if there wasn't apathy in our world, why would you want to us to murder each other over a president who has about a year left in office? Why are you condoning murder, Dan? Why are you condoning genocide?

He had about a year in office left once already. Yet he was chosen over Kerry. Personally I didn't like either of them, but I'm not in America so my opinion on that isn't important. Here's a question for you and I'm asking you nicely to answer it: What will you do if Bush gets chosen again? What will you do if he gets another 4 year mandate in office? Just let it expire again and say the same thing again in 3 years? The guy needs to be kicked out of office in any way it can be done. Along with a few other bastards like Cheney, Rice etc. And I'm not condoning murder or genocide, when I mentioned the guns, I meant it satirically since you're using that same excuse after each school shooting, that it's in case the government ****s up.

Are we taught to love our country? Are we taught to love our government? Are we taught to hate other nations? Not by our schools. Perhaps by our parents, but not by our teachers (although some teachers feel it necessary to spout their opinions at every interval).

So who taught your parents all of the above?

 

[Skiwan]

You missed the point though. You are perceived in this way by publicity for the most part, it's the image your country publicizes and presents the rest of the world, from the cop chase shows on our cable channels to the speeches given to your leaders on the news. You gotta realise as well you're at the foremost point of scrutiny when you put yourself on such a pedestal. America dominates most of the English speaking world in terms of entertainment, you're constantly being watched by everyone everywhere, you're inventing the new trends, you have the richest celebrities, you produce the most new weapon technologies, you produce so many things its not true, you're going to be subject of criticism when you've got the wrong people as the figure heads of your country, from Paris Hilton to George Bush. People see, evaluate and are quick to form conclusions, in this age where the press likes to worm out every dirty little secret out there. It's just an unfortunate time for you.

 

[Mr.Lukyas]

Good find, Zeo. I'm tired of everyone calling America stupid without a ground to stand on.

Im not calling America stupid, just most of it's population

 

[Zeonix]

@ Dan: Documents belonging to Karl Rove suggest the elections were, to put it lightly, rigged in favor of Bush by eliminating a good portion of the black population's vote using a bogus interpretation of the law. Most people were just as surprised as the rest of the world when Bush won, but most people are also against saying the government has become that corrupt because it would mean our situation is far worse than anyone believed.

He won't get another 4 year mandate because Presidents are limited to two terms. If we find ourselves under martial law and the election suspended, you'll find out why our government fears it's people so.

We're not going to resort to murder just because we don't like our President. If it gets to the point where we have to act, we will, and the military will aid us. The Generals and soldiers have been alienated just as much, if not more, as the rest of us.

My parents weren't taught any "of the above". My father is a Cuban nationalist who was forced to flee during Fidel's take over, but not before he could be indoctrinated. I know propaganda when I see it because I've lived with a propaganda machine for most of my life. My mother didn't teach me to love America. In fact, she hasn't taught me anything. Mostly everything I know, I know because I've taught myself. Not because a teacher taught me, not because my parents taught me, and not because the government taught me. I am not alone in this regard.

@ David: If Europeans are able to distinguish the difference between fact and fiction, reality and television land, we aren't the only problem. I look down on Americans who believe what they see on television is the complete and utter truth and our reality and it hurts me to know that they aren't alone in this world.

@ Lukyas: I'm sure you absolutely believe that. I'm also sure there were a few bank robbers who absolutely believed there weren't any video cameras recording them, but that didn't work out too well. Point being, your opinion closely resembles Dan's, and lo and behold you're from the same country. And you're very young. Hmm. What is this I smell? Indoctrination? Propaganda? Remove the blinders, and think for yourself.

 

[Synth]

Im not calling America stupid, just most of it's population

Do you realize how assinine that statement is?

If you're going to say the majority if something is stupid, you're pretty much saying it's stupid.

I kind of like being called dumb... because it's good to know that my rivals are still in the dark ages with technology us and the Japanese pattended.

 

[Keiha]

Woo regardless, I still think America(n's) is/are stupid.

 

[MC]

Woo regardless, I still think America(n's) is/are stupid.

By thinking that American's are stupid, you lead me to believe you're unsure about your thoughts on the matter. Not to lecture you on the difference between thinking or knowing, can you explain why you think that American's are stupid?

 

[Synth]

See it's funny all these foreign media groups/politicians base themselves off us Americans.

I don't blame them.

This is the melting pot, because all the idiots who can't manage in their own country, come over here and live off the government, spreading their seed of dependency.

What better way to get votes, than to give people the idea they don't have to worry about anything.

 

[Mr.Lukyas]

I don't say U R dumb, or anyone, here, but the FACT is that american school and adjucation system is on Low level! That is an fact! And I M not saying that there are no EXTRA SMART AMERICANS! No, Im just, saying that the MOST of the americans are stupid. Same goes for my country. Most ppl from here are peasents, so that means most of the 7 000 000 Serbians! That is a fact, too

 

[Zeonix]

Lukyas, RTFA.

Thank you.