A necessary evil

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I'm going to start this off by asking three questions

  • Why was there always a constant influx of people learning how to play ESF during 1.1?
  • Why isn't there this constant influx of people learning how to play ESF in 1.2?
  • Why have all of the players playing ESF today either started in 1.1 or when 1.2 first came out?

The answers to all of these questions lies within how hard it is to learn how to play ESF.

In 1.1, the game was relatively simple to learn. Double click on someone, then double click again to swoop. Hold right click to score a hit. It was an immensely deep system once you learned the ins and outs of it, but it never got to the point where players new to the game had no chance of winning. This is because new players could use HOWing* vs advanced players. New players never felt completely helpless, and eventually, as those who HOWed became better, they stopped using the exploit.

Early on in 1.2, the game was much easier to learn. Because everyone who was previously good had to essentially relearn the game, everyone was on equal ground. Players never felt completely helpless, as there was no one good enough yet to make them feel like they had no chance of winning.

Right now in 1.2, the game is nearly impossible to learn. People have mastered the current mechanics of the game, a newbie coming into ESF will die repeatedly until he asks how to play. The playerbase, tired of the same question over and over, will either not respond or tell said player to RTFM. Of course, the player had no idea there was a manual for the game, it mentions it nowhere. But regardless, even if this new player does read the manual, he is facing what is in his mind an impossible battle in learning how to play the game. New players will have no chance of winning vs a seasoned player and, lacking the crutch that was HOWing, will quit the game.

You see, HOWing was a necessary evil. I realize that everyone hated it at the time, but it really was responsible for a lot of people sticking around and learning to play the game. This brings me to the point of my thread:

For 1.3, I'm aware that melee is still in the planning stages. I'm not trying to push the ESF team in the direction of ruining simple melee, because it really is a great system once you learn to play the game, but whatever advanced melee system you guys come up with, it needs to be as cheap and hated as HOWing was. By that, I mean it has to be easy to learn and extremely effective. If this isn't the case, newbies will once again be pummeled by the system that is simple melee, and we'll be in the situation we're currently in now, with no one wanting to learn how to play the game.

Oh, and small rant here. Change how the swoop system works. I can't begin to tell you how many complaints I've heard about it. "My swoop only works half the time" is the most common. Swooping should work as follows:

You press turbo, you're now in swoop mode, you press turbo again, you now exit swoop mode. While in swoop mode, any direction you move will initiate a swoop in that direction for as long as you hold down the button; if you let go of said direction, your swoop stops. And importantly, if you press fly mode, you exit swoop mode and begin to glide.

If you read through all of that, I commend you. Comments?

*HOWing, for those of you who don't know, stood for head on whoring. Basically, head on hits in 1.1 were determined by who had more ki. If you let someone swoop to you, all you had to do was swoop and hit them at the last possible second. Considering they were wasting their energy swooping while you stood still, you would get the hit. This was also known as LSM, or last second meleeing.
 

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I just reread my post, and I want to clarify. I'm not advocating that we bring HOWing back. I'm merely saying that the new advanced melee system can't be complex. The simpler it is, the easier it is to learn, and the more effective it is, the better. I don't want a repeat of what happened with 1.2.
 
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thats true, i'm a fan of esf since 1.0 and when i started playing 1.2 it f*cked mi head and i stopped playing for a while, nd when i restarted (1.22 i think), everybody was too damn good for me...
 
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We're currently thinking along the lines of a way simpler melee than the one described in the design docs, even if it's just because that will be way too much work to implement.

I don't think complexity is the only reason for the decline in new players though. You can probably ascribe most of that to the fact that Dragonballz isn't much of a hype anymore and that our engine is horribly outdated. Also, despite what seems to be popular belief here, 1.2 had a way longer staying power than 1.1. Most 1.1 servers disappeared a couple of months after the release.
 
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Allso sub. You have to note that the average age in 1.1 was higher than it is now in 1.2

The people in 1.1 were generally round 15 years old while most of the 1.2s playing comunity is 10 to 13. Thats allso a reason why 1.1 had a smaller comunity drop. People were generally older and knew they have to master certain stuff to get better. In 1.2 on the other hand the new people just straightly give up. The few that dont need about a month or two and they are allready good enough to hold their own and totally dominate the ones who just joined.
 
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but, there are alot of things that 1.1 had that would hook a new player.

in 1.1 the combo's were amazing. and it was actually alot of fun just trying to learn how to do them. the game was alot, i guess you can say, "freer". the reason i took to ESF was because it really felt like i was in a fanmade episode of dragonball z where all the character had a battle royale.

because of the unlimited teleport, you couldnt really spam all that easily. in 1.2 thats a major reason why people leave. having an easy way to garner kills makes the game all about score.

while this isnt a newbie issue, powerup was alot more useful in 1.1 because you could glide a few feet. that alone increased the speed of a battle and made it less about teleport, powerup, teleport, powerup etc...

the targeting system made it alot easier to distinguish your opponent. that made it more of a 1 on 1 oriented game, free for all or not.

i remember the good days where me and my team would just do a massive free for all power struggle on cell day with the other team. that was because the teams spawned together instead of all over the place, i'd like team-based maps in 1.3.

honestly theres just something un-dbzish about 1.2. im not even really sure what it is. it might be the slow-pace or the relatively low knockback.

i hate to say this, cause i know subs gonna rape me, but gliding didnt really happen back then. it didnt need to because you could slide along while you powerup.

well, those are some of the things. 1.2 did add a few things, but i still think it was gameplay that really ruined it. back in 1.1 i always had fun because there was always someone better and it was just kinda exciting to try to follow the insane speed that they could move at. really got your heart pumping. thats what should be duplicated.
 
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I meet people who claim to be completely new to the game, yet play better than most pros. Happens kinda often too.
 
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Every time I played ESF, it was my first time ever playing the game.

It'd be nice if the scripting situation was taken care of, btw. That tends to piss people off enough to not want to stick around. And no, delays aren't going to solve anything.
 
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I agree very much about keeping it simple. The main problem with the melee system now is how touchy and precise it is. I'm all for advanced techniques, but not for advanced techniques SO advanced that it literally takes months to learn. Considering this is a multiplayer game, most of it should be "pick up and play" and the rest should have a sweet-spot in timing that has a little wiggle-room. For instance, when you first played Super Smash Brothers, most of it was self-explanatory. The big trick was the smash attack, which requires the the quick the melee attack button combined with a quick flick of the joystick in the desired direction. It took a little to master, but once you did, you never forgot it.

In ESF we have techniques like "angling" and double-hitting in simple melee, and those are so finnicky that I consider it too much effort to pull off to bother using on the fly. if at all. And then there's the common pro-rape tactic. All I see pros do to mass kill noobs, is get below them, knock them into the ceiling, predict where they will helplessly fall, charge a gen beam, and pwn them as they land...Or, rain down ki blasts until there's a blob, and fire a gen beam into the blob, overload it and splode' 'em all to Snake Way...
 
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true enough. in 1.1 disabling the lock-on to switch to a beam or ki blasts could mean that you just lost the fight. which is the way i like it, melee oriented.
 
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If I'd have to say straight out what's wrong with 1.2 in comparison to 1.1, it's MUCH SLOWER! Seriously, I installed 1.1 a few days ago and now I tried 1.2 again, it was like moving in slow motion, if you pardon the cliche.
 
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If I'd have to say straight out what's wrong with 1.2 in comparison to 1.1, it's MUCH SLOWER! Seriously, I installed 1.1 a few days ago and now I tried 1.2 again, it was like moving in slow motion, if you pardon the cliche.
While thats true. My bet is you probably didnt experience the true speed of 1.1 yourself.

You may have noticed faster movement. But thats not all the speed 1.1 had on it.

Actually if howing isnt counted. 1.1 was harder to learn than 1.2 ^^

Since all you could rely on was anglehits and teleport mastering along with Ki controll.

If there wouldnt have been any HOWing in 1.1 it would be practically impossible for a new player to kill someone playing long enough to learn angles.

The only actuall problems in 1.1 were teleport scripts and aimbots ^^
 
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cmon guys.. the adv melee of 1.2 is pretty cool, and FOR GOD!! IT IS NOT HARD TO LEARN!!!!!! you just have to get stuck in a adv melee 2 times to learn how it work..
myself and all the world want a game that gives a real DBZ experience! i mean fast things and fast combos!

dont make a crap adv. melee just because there is people who doesnt have a bit of patience to learn things... and you can post cools movies showing the stuff of 1.3 to get the people excited about the game.
there is people who still around just waiting the new adv melee.. we have a lot of suggestions about it posted in this forum, we have a PRETTY COOL document saying how it will work and thats all we need!

:D:D

the best for everyone
 
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cmon guys.. the adv melee of 1.2 is pretty cool, and FOR GOD!! IT IS NOT HARD TO LEARN!!!!!! you just have to get stuck in a adv melee 2 times to learn how it work..
myself and all the world want a game that gives a real DBZ experience! i mean fast things and fast combos!

dont make a crap adv. melee just because there is people who doesnt have a bit of patience to learn things... and you can post cools movies showing the stuff of 1.3 to get the people excited about the game.
there is people who still around just waiting the new adv melee.. we have a lot of suggestions about it posted in this forum, we have a PRETTY COOL document saying how it will work and thats all we need!

:D:D

the best for everyone
Making melee simpler doesn't mean making it crappy. Sometimes when you overcomplicate something, it just makes it worst.

Thing is, advanced melee in the form we know it isn't hard to learn, sure. But in 1.2, it's almost worthless to seasoned players. The pros don't use advanced melee at all if they can help it, they just use simple melee because of what they can do with it.

Like I said, making an effective combat system doesn't necessarily mean adding as many features into it as possible. You have to balance simplicity of use with the versatility and capability of the combat system. You want to get as much result as you can out of the fewest number of buttons involved possible. An effective system is one that you can pick up and play with self-explanatory controls, yet do a multitude of thing with them. Again, I refer back to Super Smash Brothers: the melee system involves nothing more than the A-button and the control stick. Using various combinations gets different results in different circumstances. Even a beginner can play the game and do reasonably well based off of such basic instructions as "attack with the A-button plus moving the control stick in whatever direction".

And in Smash Brothers, you'll notice that unless someone is world champ, it's REALLY hard to tell difference in skill level during a fight. This is what I believe any fighting game should aim for.
 
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kinda like how jedi academy MP works. every time you lose it seems like you shouldnt have. it's hard to tell how good your opponent is until you manage to beat him.
 
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Making melee simpler doesn't mean making it crappy. Sometimes when you overcomplicate something, it just makes it worst.

Thing is, advanced melee in the form we know it isn't hard to learn, sure. But in 1.2, it's almost worthless to seasoned players. The pros don't use advanced melee at all if they can help it, they just use simple melee because of what they can do with it.

Like I said, making an effective combat system doesn't necessarily mean adding as many features into it as possible. You have to balance simplicity of use with the versatility and capability of the combat system. You want to get as much result as you can out of the fewest number of buttons involved possible. An effective system is one that you can pick up and play with self-explanatory controls, yet do a multitude of thing with them. Again, I refer back to Super Smash Brothers: the melee system involves nothing more than the A-button and the control stick. Using various combinations gets different results in different circumstances. Even a beginner can play the game and do reasonably well based off of such basic instructions as "attack with the A-button plus moving the control stick in whatever direction".

And in Smash Brothers, you'll notice that unless someone is world champ, it's REALLY hard to tell difference in skill level during a fight. This is what I believe any fighting game should aim for.

yeah.. You saied the truth.. the melee doesnd need to be hard to learn and with a lot of button to play to be great! but we need some special combinations of buttons to do things.. just remember the old and good mortal kombat.. every character have ther special combo and special attack, and to do these atacks you need to learn a special combination of button.. a new player just can punch and kick the oponnent.. and look at mortal kombat nowadays.. my god! it still a very famouse franchise with A LOT of fans around the world.

and yes, i just start the advanced melee because it is cool or when i wanna throw away the opponent! the advanced melee should be more effective!

the point is: the game can be a bit hard to learn!
imagine a new player watching a movie made by a pro 1.3 esf player! you can get the people excited about the game and because of this the guys will die sometimes just to learn how to do things in game. and the people WILL learn it!
 
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yeah.. You saied the truth.. the melee doesnd need to be hard to learn and with a lot of button to play to be great! but we need some special combinations of buttons to do things.. just remember the old and good mortal kombat.. every character have ther special combo and special attack, and to do these atacks you need to learn a special combination of button.. a new player just can punch and kick the oponnent.. and look at mortal kombat nowadays.. my god! it still a very famouse franchise with A LOT of fans around the world.

and yes, i just start the advanced melee because it is cool or when i wanna throw away the opponent! the advanced melee should be more effective!

the point is: the game can be a bit hard to learn!
imagine a new player watching a movie made by a pro 1.3 esf player! you can get the people excited about the game and because of this the guys will die sometimes just to learn how to do things in game. and the people WILL learn it!
There's a problem though. Look at 1.2 right now. Yeah, the pros can blow our minds for how good they are, but unfortunately it's so hard for a newb to even stand a CHANCE in ESF against a more experienced player that they stop trying. There's only so much you can learn from getting your ass kicked, and the common lesson players DO learn, is that it's better just not to play. THAT is a PROBLEM...a HUGE problem. And even one-on-one training from a pro is unlikely to yield results. This is speaking from experience, having once spent over an hour being personally tutored and getting utterly nowhere. When this is the case, then something is seriously wrong, and I hope to God that ESF's talented team can find their happy medium so that ESF finally becomes a truly player-friendly mod.
 
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the speed to 1.2 is terrible the teleporting is garbage that lag between teleport is the worst **** ever after you hit someone and they have that invinciblility for like 234234243 seconds are you serious man ARE YOU SERIOUS i have to wait forever just to get the fight going and when i do get to hit them they already teleport away and also hitting someone when there rolling in the other ones you could just beat that ass until they died. In this one unless you bounce them at some weird angle off of something.

and your advanced melee is garbage even if someone pushes the right buttons to stop you from hitting them you can still do it because i know i can do it and i know other players know the bug to advanced melee needs to go back where ever it came from meaning away from this game you guys need to bring the speed back get rid of the lag on teleporting let people hit you as much times as they want with out that invinciblility thing comming up after they get up from a hit just let the game be played how it was and always should of been you should of kept it fun

and back when this game first came out the average player was around 15 now everyones grown i remember playing this game sometime in high school and im about to be 23 this month man im getting old this game use to be so great people use to get together to go beat some ass now they get to together to talk about how they use to beat some ass back when the game was good i know i shouldn't of said those things were garbage and im sorry if i offended anyone but people who have been playing this since 1.0 like me hate to see this game community die man its kinda like alot of us grew up here i know iv never been really involved with the forums at all but i just hate the see this game end and die on the next installment i know right now its hurting bad.

i think alot of the new players not playing is because they don't feel the need to join up with people how they use to now the only clan i even see is zr no disrespect to you guys but alot of you know when there was like 23423423423 clans everyone and there mom would scramble to join someone anyone because those people would go out and help you learn to play maybe thats what we have to do to save this game teach some stupid noob to play just to get players to play and im going off topic so if you need to edit this for any reason do so freely just one more thing maybe we need more clan's if anyone is willing to start a new clan even if you have to trick those noobs then just give it to them so they can feel like they are part of the esf community then do it.
 
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...i tried to convince some of my friends to play ESF...the simplified anwser was...omfg all u do in this fu*** game is do the fu*** swoop thing to try hit someone wich is fu*** impossible and boring and trow some ki atack that is soo slow that never will hit someone that keeps f*** teleporting and you my friend(hes talking about me ^^ ) keep making that fu*** Combo sh** and the stupid 2 melee hits and trow that blue atack right after it ! FU*** THAT!!....well thats what he said ^^...sure he dont like much of DBZ but...well thats what some newbies may think about when playing ESF for the first time \o/
 

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