Regarding melee

[hleV]

Hlev, you are just bickering for the sake of bickering, and you are too stubborn to even realise the pointlessness of it all.

That is a statement not backed up by anything. Disregarded.

People want to prove you wrong (among more obvious reasons) because you have this know-it-all attitude about you, which by itself is without warrant; but, more importantly it's an incredibly toxic personality trait to have, and it doesn't benefit anyone (not even yourself).

So people want to prove me wrong because of my attitude and not because I'm actually wrong? That makes sense, considering if I really was wrong, I would've been provided with a valid argument for that.

If you truly, honestly cannot see the flaw in this type of behavior that you are currently exhibiting then you need to work on mindfulness, and you need to self reflect more often.

What behavior are you actually talking about? The one thanks to which I do not hesitate to point out that stupid people are stupid?

As a side: you can go right ahead, and think me a fool if you so desire, I do not care.

You should not be concerned about what I think of you as much as about the fact that you indeed ARE a fool.

See, that's the difference between you and I; you want everyone to just give up, and say you're right because you have to be right, you have to be the one who has the final word ~ and if you can't get what you want then you *****, and moan, and would more than likely continue to carry on like that for the rest of time, or at least until the other members involved grow sick of your ignorant, childish behavior.

I want people who are wrong to give up, yes. And I AM right. If I wasn't, it would've been proven by now. The rest of the paragraph makes no sense. You're the one moaning about my "behavior".

But, people have already said all of this to you; and you just wrote it off as them being wrong

And I wrote back perfectly explaining why they ARE wrong.

so it's folly for me to have even bothered with any of this. Realising this, I will no longer be replying to you

Good riddance. Perhaps we can get back to serious debate now instead of "you're mean so I can't accept your completely valid arguments, but I won't reply to you anymore!" bullshit.

I'm a ****. Doesn't mean I'm wrong about things.

 

[vector]

Arggggg quit.freakin bickerin over little shit. I like this stance idea, lets discuss that more so devs take interest in it too.

Ignore thr trolls ... we know who they are.

 

[pumadace2000]

Wait. I think I have an idea regarding the stances. If they would be added, what would you think about them replacing the already pretty good, but also quite simplistic turbo mechanic?

 

[Ryokeen]

*grabbs popcorn* that's better than some religious ppl..."oh i'm right and every attempt to explain why i'm wrong is invalid because i'm right and so i'm right"

 

[Critical_Error]

Wait. I think I have an idea regarding the stances. If they would be added, what would you think about them replacing the already pretty good, but also quite simplistic turbo mechanic?

Well, yes; pretty much. If I understand you correctly you're referring to Turbo (T by default) which increase your movement speed, and also your Ki. If you had the stances there would be no need for Turbo I don't think, since Turbo in it's own right is just another one of those dull "press this button or I'm weaker" mechanics. What's your idea, though?

 

[pumadace2000]

Well, yes; pretty much. If I understand you correctly you're referring to Turbo (T by default) which increase your movement speed, and also your Ki. If you had the stances there would be no need for Turbo I don't think, since Turbo in it's own right is just another one of those dull "press this button or I'm weaker" mechanics. What's your idea, though?

Well if I would take Gregas added suggestion, that Balanced does no bonuses and Aggressive and Defensive do what they do, how about if instead of just the plain old turbo you can try and go for a stance. (now I know there is a problem as to what keys would you bound this, I haven't thought that far) So when you fight normally you are in balanced, but then you can go aggresive stance, or aggressive turbo, where you deal more damage but drain more ki and attacks are a bit slower, but you fly faster or you can go defensive stance where you get a bit more ki to play with for some beams, your defensive is boosted, by making you a bit more resistant, but attacks on you will cost you both a bit of hp and a chunk of ki and your offensive melee will be almost Krilin level of pathetic, (the show Krilin, not the game, sorry Krilin or Kuririn. Whatever...) and you fly somewhat slower.

 

[Critical_Error]

Yea; all cool ideas. The thing with Turbo is that it's ingrained into the DBZ anime ~ if a character wants to go all out, they'll do like a weird grunt/ thrusting thing, and pop their Turbo. If stances were to take over Turbo's place; then activating them would have to activate the Turbo aura, which would be a cool feature, too. You could make it that the Aggression stance's aura is very wispy, and elongated ~ the Defensive stance's aura is very small, and confined. This is also another way to help differentiate between what stance the enemy is currently using.

 

[pumadace2000]

Yea; all cool ideas. The thing with Turbo is that it's ingrained into the DBZ anime ~ if a character wants to go all out, they'll do like a weird grunt/ thrusting thing, and pop their Turbo. If stances were to take over Turbo's place; then activating them would have to activate the Turbo aura, which would be a cool feature, too. You could make it that the Aggression stance's aura is very wispy, and elongated ~ the Defensive stance's aura is very small, and confined. This is also another way to help differentiate between what stance the enemy is currently using.

Yeah pretty much. I mean for me personally turbo was never really worth it. Increase my ki, but then drain the living hell out of it. I also didn't feel like I was really becoming more powerful, even thought the power was there. Maybe this could do something about that. Also if I were to implement this, I would take out the fact that turbo drains ki when doing nothing or make that way less than it actually does in the current version.

 

[Critical_Error]

Yeah pretty much. I mean for me personally turbo was never really worth it. Increase my ki, but then drain the living hell out of it. I also didn't feel like I was really becoming more powerful, even thought the power was there. Maybe this could do something about that. Also if I were to implement this, I would take out the fact that turbo drains ki when doing nothing or make that way less than it actually does in the current version.

Yea, that's exactly right. Turbo didn't have any real impact on your strength, or how strong you felt ~ of course, it's as you say; you knew that it made you stronger, and so you put it on, and if you didn't put it on then you would fall behind in the Ki gain among other things. Like I mentioned earlier; if you really wanted to win, you had to put it on, it was mandatory. But, it was bland, and other such things ~ which, for arguments sake, was perfectly okay back when 1.2.3 was released, but not okay by today's standards. It's bad game play design.

 

[Grega]

Turbo is a simple trade off mechanic.

Get 25% extra PL (which means more damage dealt and less taken) at the cost of KI drain. Its the idea of turning KI to strength.

 

[hleV]

*grabbs popcorn* that's better than some religious ppl..."oh i'm right and every attempt to explain why i'm wrong is invalid because i'm right and so i'm right"

There's a few pages of posts that prove I'm right so disregarding the sarcasm, you are correct. I am right not because I said so but because I proved so. Every single argument thrown at me was countered and in the end the decision is "**** fairness, we have to appeal to casuals because noobs want to kill pros in order to feel great about it even though they don't deserve it one bit, otherwise they will quit".

 

[Grega]

There's a few pages of posts that prove I'm right so disregarding the sarcasm, you are correct. I am right not because I said so but because I proved so. Every single argument thrown at me was countered and in the end the decision is "**** fairness, we have to appeal to casuals because noobs want to kill pros in order to feel great about it even though they don't deserve it one bit, otherwise they will quit".

Fairness means it goes both ways. Its like having fighter games where you regain health with every punch you hit. Its fair because there is no healing. Especially since in this game you can get round the luck factor if you have enough skill.

So yes with enough skill the luck factor doesnt exist anymore. If you are having problems with the luck factor, then you are not enough skilled and you deserve the death.

As i said anglehits get round the luck factor. If you cant pull them off, then you lack skill and have no right to complain about the luck factor. That is totally fair for both parties, where healing one on the ground "because they are better" is not fair for both parties.

And again as so many times before. The final will be more punishing than 1.2 because of the increased speed and decreased hitboxes. So your "because its for casuals" comment is total bullshit.

As for the stances. I added stamina in to the mix because of just how punishing it is to run out. So in my example, the defense stance would drain though your stamina. And since you can not recharge it like you do your KI its quite a negative effect. Since when you are empty on stamina, you can no longer teleport or swoop. Having turbo active also doesnt replenish your stamina in adition to the KI drain.

So the attack/defense stances are really situational. If you missuse them and just switch between then, youll end up a sitting duck.

 

[pumadace2000]

As for the stances. I added stamina in to the mix because of just how punishing it is to run out. So in my example, the defense stance would drain though your stamina. And since you can not recharge it like you do your KI its quite a negative effect. Since when you are empty on stamina, you can no longer teleport or swoop. Having turbo active also doesnt replenish your stamina in adition to the KI drain.

So the attack/defense stances are really situational. If you missuse them and just switch between then, youll end up a sitting duck.

I guess the only problem would then be, what button would now be assigned to change stances.

 

[hleV]

Oh please tell me how getting FPS spikes/lag for 2 seconds mean you're not skilled enough. And like I said, nobody's perfect so a mistake on your side is bound to happen sooner or later no matter how skilled you are. That shouldn't be punishable by death. The fact that you got hit and gave the noob PL is a good enough punishment, but they should have to do better than that to get a pro killed. Otherwise it's bullshit. If you do mistakes often then sure, you're not skilled enough, but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

[Ryokeen]

One last thing then i'll just laught about it @Hlev you just say that noobs don't deserve a kill, even if it's just a lucky shot, because they are noobs. You don't prove anything, you just don't want to get killed because you have 10HP , killed 10 noobs and then another one gets a you from behind. Get over it that's how EVERY game works.
Pro q3 /Ut players also die that way when playing FFA and honestly a 1vs1 against some bloody noob isn't judged by skill/death ratio, it's judged on overall WIN. Unless ofc it's a tournament but there you will hardly find any totally unskilled players. So what you're complaining about is either FFA and getting killed by one of the many ppl on the server who you think about they don't deserve to kill you and 1vs1 noob vs pro "unranked" where you would have to be a complete ******* to complain about 1 death when you get 10 kills.

Oh and i just sawthat you think when you make a mistake because nobody is perfect you shouldn't be punished by death...get it in your head when you make a mistake and you die, you deserve to die because you made a mistake. Or else it would be "Oh i'm superior to anyone else but when i don't see someone approaching me and get hit and die...i shouldn't because it was just a small accident to overlook him" that's just stupid

 

[Grega]

I guess the only problem would then be, what button would now be assigned to change stances.

Thats the real issue. We are trying to cut down on buttons as is, and we cant expect everyone to have a gaming mouse. But the buttons would have to be close enough to be usefull and efficient regardless. Especially an issue when youa re expected to be on the move while switching, so conbinations dont really cut it. We could however cut it down to 2 buttons by having an active and inactive state. Meaning press 1 button to activate offensive and another to activate defensive. To go down to balanced you would only need to deactivate the current state. So if you are in offensive, you press the button for offensive, and vice versa for defensive. Kinda like a toggle on/off. Switching between offensive and defensive would also be easy to do. Having the switch automatically dissable the active one.

Oh please tell me how getting FPS spikes/lag for 2 seconds mean you're not skilled enough. And like I said, nobody's perfect so a mistake on your side is bound to happen sooner or later no matter how skilled you are. That shouldn't be punishable by death. If you do mistakes often then sure, you're not skilled enough, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Sudden lag doesnt just happen for no reason. If you are getting weird lag spikes, then you shouldnt be playing a game that heavily depends on timing. And as far as FPS drops go. Thats what video options are for. Change it so that you have a constant FPS. Besides your entire notion is that pros should get a free pass for making a misstake or 2 because they are more skilled. But yes such things do happen from time to time, and blaming your deaths on such things is not the sign of a pro, but a sign of a noob.

Even your second notion. Misstakes are not punishable by death. Not single misstakes. Multiple misstakes are, but single ones are not. make enough misstakes and you are dead. That is pretty fair in my eyes. No get out of jail free cards in this game.

 

[vector]

Thats the real issue. We are trying to cut down on buttons as is, and we cant expect everyone to have a gaming mouse. But the buttons would have to be close enough to be usefull and efficient regardless. Especially an issue when youa re expected to be on the move while switching, so conbinations dont really cut it. We could however cut it down to 2 buttons by having an active and inactive state. Meaning press 1 button to activate offensive and another to activate defensive. To go down to balanced you would only need to deactivate the current state. So if you are in offensive, you press the button for offensive, and vice versa for defensive. Kinda like a toggle on/off. Switching between offensive and defensive would also be easy to do. Having the switch automatically dissable the active one.

kinda how the warrior stances work in WOW? but also, just a thought; you could always make just 1 button for the stances and u just have to cycle through it. Most people after playing a while will know how many times to press the button to get to the stance they want, and if they can implement it so that holding down the button takes you back to the default stance that would b cool. i only suggest this if making few keys as possible for the stances is a very big deal (i honestly would rather have a separate key for each, i like having more control n options available).

Also, i think the idea of only having 2 stances is a bit basic. as it was suggested earlier, someone was mentioning different states, aggressive (speed), aggressive (strength). then there could be defensive (reduced damage), or defensive (evasion, harder to hit/hitbox).

honestly, so far the combat seems very bland. playing 1.2.3 ... melee is pretty much the same for every character... the biggest differences in characters is a few select abilities. I feel like this stance idea can b broadened by having each character's having their OWN unique stances to go along with these basic ones. let me give some examples


So, for piccolo ... he is a Namekian. Namekians are one of the races in DBZ that can heal and regenerate. What if they had stances which helped them with this.
Defensive stance would be: increased healing regen while suffering speed.
Offensive stance would be: increased damage/speed with reduced healing aspect.

Gohan: Gohan has a unique trait to him, when he gets pushed to a limit he can enrage
Defensive state: slight increase in defense, the more damage he takes, it builds up his "potential" bar.
Offensive state: his skills dramatically increase strength/speed dependent on his "potential" bar which gets drained over time.

Goku has his near death thing ... when he's nearly getting his ass kicked he has a bigger boost.

Offensive: when in this stance, depending on his current health his speed/strength increases. the lesser hp he has, the more his boost
Defensive: lets face it guys ... Goku can take an ass beating when he wants to. depending on his HP, he has more defense and also, when he is charging any KI moves he gets an extra defensive boost (he can take quite a punch when doing ki attacks).

I honestly don't expect these specific stances to be used, probably creates quite a lot of work. but these named above could b used on multiple ppl. Piccolo's stance could b used for other healers like Buu. Gohan's stance above could b used for Vegeta, instead his potential bar would b changed to "pride" bar, his pride gets hurt when he gets hit so that increases his enrage/pride bar. Goku's could b used for a lot of the Z fighters. The androids would have their own type, and other characters can use the really basic ones mentioned before.


I mean ... just imagine this. Seeing Trunks as an USSJ all big n bulky with lightning going around ... and all the sudden he decides to change his stance, his muscles actually get bigger (since u can control how much strength u build up in USSJ, he controlled it against cell) and he gets stronger but slower at the same time, gaining defense but still just becoming much slower.

Let me know what u guys think on this.

 

[Grega]

I mean ... just imagine this. Seeing Trunks as an USSJ all big n bulky with lightning going around ... and all the sudden he decides to change his stance, his muscles actually get bigger (since u can control how much strength u build up in USSJ, he controlled it against cell) and he gets stronger but slower at the same time, gaining defense but still just becoming much slower.

Let me know what u guys think on this.

Yea thats not gonna work. This is still HL, and unless we totally rewrite the way the models are handled again, we dont have support for bulking up like that without actually making a bunch more models. Also, speed is not something we would alter, due to the way turbo works.

So if we do decide to get stances in it would soulely be in the damage/energy department.

Also cycling though is one way, but as hectic as ESF can get, is not the optimum way.

 

[vector]

Yea thats not gonna work. This is still HL, and unless we totally rewrite the way the models are handled again, we dont have support for bulking up like that without actually making a bunch more models. Also, speed is not something we would alter, due to the way turbo works.

So if we do decide to get stances in it would soulely be in the damage/energy department.

Also cycling though is one way, but as hectic as ESF can get, is not the optimum way.

From what I gather, the turbo boosts is quite a lot. The stance stuff could b rather slight boosts/changes. What did u think about unique stances for certain characters (whoops, i also just noticed ur own cahracter specific stances, but what did u think of the ones i mentioned as well?) ? I understand limiting ourselves makes balancing come a lot easier ... but i really think more depth would b very nice, and having some uniqueness in the game. having stances only change damage/energy dept seems very bland. there's quite a lot of potential in there.

What is the current state of turbo, Is it something that toggles on and off, or is it once u activate it, it stays on until it is depleted and has a ICD til u can use it again.

(also, seeing the visual bulking up is really not that important to me tbh haha)

 

[hleV]

One last thing then i'll just laught about it @Hlev you just say that noobs don't deserve a kill, even if it's just a lucky shot, because they are noobs. You don't prove anything, you just don't want to get killed because you have 10HP , killed 10 noobs and then another one gets a you from behind. Get over it that's how EVERY game works.

"That's how every game works" - Ryokeen, 2015. Yeah, that totally convinced me that ESF must work that way too and not have player stats correctly reflect player skill.

Oh and i just sawthat you think when you make a mistake because nobody is perfect you shouldn't be punished by death...get it in your head when you make a mistake and you die, you deserve to die because you made a mistake. Or else it would be "Oh i'm superior to anyone else but when i don't see someone approaching me and get hit and die...i shouldn't because it was just a small accident to overlook him" that's just stupid

That small accident already rewarded the noob with a PL. Pro dying to that implies that he actually got defeated by the noob, which is simply not true.

Sudden lag doesnt just happen for no reason. If you are getting weird lag spikes, then you shouldnt be playing a game that heavily depends on timing.

Oh look I got a lag spike once in 10 days and that noob killed me because of that. I shouldn't play this game!

And as far as FPS drops go. Thats what video options are for. Change it so that you have a constant FPS.

Same as above, just replace lag spike with FPS drop.

Besides your entire notion is that pros should get a free pass for making a misstake or 2 because they are more skilled. But yes such things do happen from time to time, and blaming your deaths on such things is not the sign of a pro, but a sign of a noob.

The first rule of a pro: always blame lag. Anyway, yes, players should get a free pass for making a single mistake and getting hit if luck is the only way the weaker opponent can ever hit you. If you got hit by luck, that's fine, it won't repeat anytime soon. If you got hit by luck and died, that's ******* stupid.

Even your second notion. Misstakes are not punishable by death. Not single misstakes. Multiple misstakes are, but single ones are not. make enough misstakes and you are dead. That is pretty fair in my eyes. No get out of jail free cards in this game.

So if I fought 20 enemies at once, destroyed them all but fairly got my HP drained (fairly because I fought them at once, in which case the game hardly gives you the chance to avoid any damage and I confronted them knowing that), and now I'm 1v1 vs a noob. He gets a lucky hit due to my first mistake/fps drop/lag spike in 10 ******* years and I go down due to having low HP from previous fighting. I'm now somehow defeated by a noob? Because, you know, I actually died to him? It is unfair and can be easily avoided if you just bother to put in a single game mechanic which does not affect anything else.