Your thoughts on Piracy?

[Prozac]

Close but no cigar.

isn't that EXACTLY what I said, lol? an idea being a copy, not being stolen away.
What's up with people in this thread and not understanding anything?

John, this isn't about America, piracy is illegal in all countries.

Uhm, piracy is legal in most countries actually, it's mostly the western world countries whom are trying to do something about it.
But even in most of those countries, it's pretty much legal to download whatever song/game/movie you want. xD
So moral issues aside, this pretty much is a America only thread! (or should I say, nations were people speak English issue..)

 

[Skiwan]

Isn't it international copyright law being broken though >_>?

 

[Viper]

Actually in Romania there are dealing with the "selling downloaded stuff" pirates. Of course, they'd never find small ones, but there are people that actually make a living of it.
Generally, the law says that if someone is caught.. uh.. pirating, that person can get 2-5 years of incarceration. The catch is what I said before: that someone must be selling a whole lot of pirated software/multimedia.

Do I think piracy is moral?
No, it's not. People spent weeks or months creating their product and are supposed to get money from it. (though, it mostly applies to stuff like Milkshape or Goldwave and other general use products from small companies. Oh, and lets not forget about singers and bands that are distributing their work on the internet for small amounts to promote themselves.)
Am I a pirate?
Yarr!!!
Why?
Mostly from necessity, for artwork and such. Well, except WoW, because I got attached to my private server guild and don't want to move .

 

[Majin_You]

Let's be honest the law here doesn't matter in the slightest- no-one you're talking to has any respect for the law, that should be self-evident. You should be arguing integrity and morals if you want to prove something.

No one here has any respect for the law? Unless you're singling out copyright laws and/or any other laws that pertain to piracy, I think you may be overstating your case quite a bit. I'd find it very difficult to believe that laws ensuring your personal safety and personal freedoms are met with no respect on your part, or on the part of the "everyone" you claim to speak for in this community. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of of the law, but, in either case, I challenge you to prove to me that there is no law that you hold any respect for.

...unless you're an anarchist of some sort

At any rate, I have argued the case on the basis of integrity and morality, and the general response has been quite clear "Immoral? Yeah, I guess it is. Ah, well; Prince of Persia isn't going to pirate itself. Bye!"

At this point, it's probably the most prudent to agree to disagree. I don't think I'd ever be justified in bilking someone (or some massive group, for that matter) out of their money because I don't feel like spending it. Similarly, I doubt some of you would ever feel justified in being what you considered to be bilked out of your own money.

Don't view me as someone who claims to be taking the moral high-road whilst looking down on the rest of you as some sort of e-sinners, because that's not how I view the matter. I just don't, personally, feel right in participating in piracy and would appreciate not having to bear any scorn for it.

EDIT:

I find it the same, because either way, I don't have to pay for every season of futurama.

I still don't see how it's the same, and in your analogy, there are differences. If you were to record the episodes of Futurama yourself, you'd, indeed, have a copy of every series in due time (complete with commercials and any cutting/editing done to the episodes by the channel airing them). However, in pirating the seasons you'd normally get in the store, you're stealing all the additional content that'd normally only be available in that version and would not be accessible via recording it off of your TV and would, doubtless, be getting the episodes at higher quality. Similar results, but different scenarios, nevertheless.

See the "agree to disagree" paragraph above, as I think it applies here just as well.

 

[Epedemic_Optikz]

Here's my gripe with this line of reasoning (though please forgive me if I'm attributing an attitude to you that you do not hold):

What makes you think you're entitled to the games, insofar as it is up to you to decide whether or not the game "deserves" your money based on an illegal method of accessing that game? You do NOT have the explicit right to use a piece of software; it is a luxury and should be acquired in the same way any other luxury is acquired. If it turns out that the game didn't strike you as being worth the price you paid, that's just hard cheese. Be more critical with what you want to play and learn how to say "No" to the desire to get every game that even moderately piques your interest; or, try to preview a game through the many channels that Muff mentioned earlier in the thread.

Sorry, but while I can understand that some people have no qualms about software piracy, I see it as depriving someone of an acknowledgment of their hard work, both in the moral sense and in the financial sense.

I should probably explain myself better. I only play 10% of the games I pirate. The rest are just junk. The games that I do play though, depending on if it is a good game, I'll buy. The only problem I have though, is that if it is a good game, and I beat it before deciding I wanted to buy it, there isn't a reason for me to buy it anymore.

Recently I made the mistake of buying RE5. I paid full price and got all the trophies/achievements for it in 4-5 days. I should have just rented it since you can't really pirate for the ps3 yet, and I'm too lazy to mod my 360.

But you are right, video games are a luxury, just as music, movies, and computers are. No one is entitled to anything but their basic human rights. I don't think i'm entitled to any video game but I am entitled to my opinion. I feel that if this game is worth $60 of quality IMO, then I would buy it. If it isn't, I won't but that doesn't mean I'll actually play through the entire game.

 

[Mkilbride]

I should probably explain myself better. I only play 10% of the games I pirate. The rest are just junk. The games that I do play though, depending on if it is a good game, I'll buy. The only problem I have though, is that if it is a good game, and I beat it before deciding I wanted to buy it, there isn't a reason for me to buy it anymore.

Recently I made the mistake of buying RE5. I paid full price and got all the trophies/achievements for it in 4-5 days. I should have just rented it since you can't really pirate for the ps3 yet, and I'm too lazy to mod my 360.

But you are right, video games are a luxury, just as music, movies, and computers are. No one is entitled to anything but their basic human rights. I don't think i'm entitled to any video game but I am entitled to my opinion. I feel that if this game is worth $60 of quality IMO, then I would buy it. If it isn't, I won't but that doesn't mean I'll actually play through the entire game.

On this topic. Amazing the PS3 can't be modded or pirated on yet really. Quite the feat, Sony.

 

[Kaination]

There's a reason I pirate movies. I'll use Dragonball Evolution as an example.

I'll want to see it for laughs. Oh boy, will it be a ****ty movie. And it was.

But if I pirate it, they don't get money, which discourages them from creating sequels and what not. Without a fanbase, there's no reason for a sequel, right?

but then again, if they get a ton of people buying the movie, and ****, then they'll make yet another ****ty sequel.

In my opinion it weeds out people making ****ty games. I love collecting stuff. One of my favorite things to do is collect video game cases, especially a series. So if I honestly like the game, I'll support that developer. If the game is ****ty, I wouldn't want them to continue making games, so I wouldn't support it.

 

[sub]

Yet you still watch and played the ****ty game / movie? Seems very hypocritical, especially if you got good laughs out of it.

 

[Kaination]

Yet you still watch and played the ****ty game / movie? Seems very hypocritical, especially if you got good laughs out of it.

Or if I sit there and go "What the **** kinda ****ty game is this?" or "wow, this movie was ****ing stupid."

such as Fallout 3. I downloaded it. One of the worst games I've played. Everyone was telling me to spend the $60, cause how great it is.

I snagged it from a friend who downloaded it, played it. I couldn't pass the first town I was so bored to tears. The combat sucked, too much slow walking, I just hated it. and I really tried to get into it, I just couldn't.

Haven't touched or even thought about it since. Am I sad that the developers lost my potential customer money? No, because that game was ****.

I watched it because how bad it was. Here's another example. I just recently saw Saving Private Ryan. I downloaded it on recommendation. My thoughts? One of the best damn movies I've ever seen. What am I going to do with my next pay check? buy that damn movie.

And dragonball: Evolution. I don't want a sequel. It was horrid. If a movie made me react like this:

Chances are, I don't want to support the makers into thinking they made a good product, and they want a sequel.

 

[sub]

Alright, I hear you. I myself bought bioshock because everyone was going on about how it was the greatest game ever made. The game is mediocre at best, wouldn't have bought it had I known

 

[Deman]

I should probably explain myself better. I only play 10% of the games I pirate. The rest are just junk. The games that I do play though, depending on if it is a good game, I'll buy. The only problem I have though, is that if it is a good game, and I beat it before deciding I wanted to buy it, there isn't a reason for me to buy it anymore.

Recently I made the mistake of buying RE5. I paid full price and got all the trophies/achievements for it in 4-5 days. I should have just rented it since you can't really pirate for the ps3 yet, and I'm too lazy to mod my 360.

But you are right, video games are a luxury, just as music, movies, and computers are. No one is entitled to anything but their basic human rights. I don't think i'm entitled to any video game but I am entitled to my opinion. I feel that if this game is worth $60 of quality IMO, then I would buy it. If it isn't, I won't but that doesn't mean I'll actually play through the entire game.

This brings up an interesting point. Are video rental stores suffering? A lot of the local ones around here are having to close up shop, but that could also be due to the recession, I imagine. But I do know that since pirating has become easier for me, I stopped renting as often. Hell, now a days you can just hook up a wireless laptop to your plasma TV and stream a movie off of a website without even having to take up HD space. Same experience without having to pay for the rental.

 

[sub]

Netflix is flourishing. If rental shops are closing, I would think netflix would be to blame. I'm sure piracy doesn't help, though.

 

[Brosiris]

Netflix is flourishing. If rental shops are closing, I would think netflix would be to blame. I'm sure piracy doesn't help, though.

You know, my step-father has netflix, and here is what he does.

He rents 3 movies at a time. He'll watch them. If he likes them, or if my mom or if the kids like them, he copies them to his computer, then burns it onto a dvd, then sends it back.

I keep telling him I don't understand why he just doesn't cancel his subscription, and download movies instead of copying them. But meh, it's his choice i suppose.

 

[Epedemic_Optikz]

This brings up an interesting point. Are video rental stores suffering? A lot of the local ones around here are having to close up shop, but that could also be due to the recession, I imagine. But I do know that since pirating has become easier for me, I stopped renting as often. Hell, now a days you can just hook up a wireless laptop to your plasma TV and stream a movie off of a website without even having to take up HD space. Same experience without having to pay for the rental.

I can't tell you how much money I've saved using Gamefly. I used to be a hardcore major achievement whore on the 360. I had around 5,000 achievement points before I used gamefly and about a year after using gamefly, I had around 79,000 achievement points.

I only actually bought 2 arcade games and the rest are retail. Now we know that a retail game gives 1,000 points each, right? So, I gained a total of 74,000 points in that year time span and that equates to 74 games. I always had the 2 out at a time membership which is 22.95 a month. so, 12x22.95 is around $275. So, I spent $275 on 74 games. If I would have bought all of those games, that is around $4,400 maybe a little less since not all games are 60$ but damn near all of them are.

I guess I say this considering that I would beat 4-5 games within a month, maybe more since I was hardcore into achievements and it's much cheaper than renting from a video store. The Hollywood video near me rents games out for 7 bucks each, that's 3 games a month in terms of gamefly and I definitely did more than 3 games each month, besides Dead Rising man that 7 day survivor achievement was a *****.

But yeah, not to stray too much off-topic, at least I don't pirate on the 360... yet. Nothing really coming out for the 360 that I like, PS3 ftw.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

What agitates me isn't stealing the big money software like Word or for school, it's games, which likely constitutes around 60% of the piracy I see on a regular basis.

I've got to say, I've heard every argument there is for piracy, and I still think it's theft. Trying to tell me that, semantically speaking, piracy of software doesn't technically fit into the definition of stealing doesn't fly, because the definition of stealing also includes a clause for appropriation without rights or acknowledgment, which I can weave into what we're doing when we copy software from somebody without giving them credit (or in this case, credits) for it. In 99% of cases people who pirate do it because they want something for free. There's no 'righteous' cause, although all of the pirates tend to band together and cry out that they're just rebels fighting against 'the man' when they get spotted doing it. My feeling is that if you can't pay for something you shouldn't have it, and if you aren't willing to pay money for a service, you can afford to go without it.

The second most consistent excuse I hear is that people are trying before they buy, which is also, in well over 99% of instances, total garbage. If you spend 10 hours going through a game that you feel is 'mediocre' just to decide it wasn't worth your money and therefore you aren't required to pay for it you've just effectively 'appropriate' 10 hours of entertainment 'without acknowledgment' of how much work was put into the product. At the end of the day, you still got your 10 hours of mediocre entertainment, and regardless of whether you personally beleive the market should be charging $50 for PC games, that's what the market is set at, and that's what you're supposed to pay for it. If you don't want to pay, don't play. If you don't want to pay for music, don't own music, listen to the radio.

Personally I'm ashamed of this new age of teens on the web who believe paying for what they own isn't fair to them. These people are the primary reason why my favorite gaming platform is all but dead, and they aren't going to stop stealing until there's nothing left for them. Maybe that's what it takes? Maybe we need to just stop producing PC games and put all of our industrial money into piling layers of protection against modding into our consoles? I'm a huge fan of the games industry and hope to develop my own games for it one day, and I just can't find respect for people who steal from the people who spend so much time producing them. This mentality of "well other people buy the games, so the industry is fine" is the same rationalization we use to justify throwing out trash on the highway, it's making life harder for somebody else because you know sooner or later somebody has to come take care of it. Or do they? Maybe the trash ends up in a gopher hole and kills one, or a game studio you love shuts down and lets all of its employees go. I'm not down with that.



As an aside, Bioshock is not a mediocre game (although that was my initial impression after listening to all of the hype). If you don't like philosophy, or first person shooters, you should not purchase philosophical first person shooters. If you haven't played it for a while I recommend you go back and try it again, it took me until my second run-through to appreciate it. If you still managed to pull several hours out of the game, though, you probably still got a better deal for your entertainment hours than you would have had watching that many movies at the theater, so it isn't a terrible loss.

 

[Prozac]

Alright, I hear you. I myself bought bioshock because everyone was going on about how it was the greatest game ever made. The game is mediocre at best, wouldn't have bought it had I known

I'm glad I got it for like $5 on steam during a discount period.
Because it's not worth the full price at all.

Glad I'm not the only one who didn't like the game xD

 

[Akation]

I read about 8 pages of this thread, and I will say that I am really interested in the discussion here, and that everyone has really good points.

I am somewhat of an avid pirater, it is wrong, but I still do it, to save the little money that I have. I don't spend money on Video Games, but I spend money to pirate Video Games. I have a history of pirating for past consoles, (sixth generation and down). It's not that I don't see it fit to pay for games, I just see it that I want to save money, which may sound as a selfish reason. If pirating is possible, I try it.

Music is a given, I have been pirating music ever since LimeWire came to be, or moreso, P2P software in general. I only purchase music when an album is monumental, a perfect album, (meaning, all songs are worth listening to), deserves to be purchased in my book. I would rather pirate an album, and be disappointed, than purchase an album, and be disappointed. Also, selling albums you don't fancy on eBay grants you your money back, so it's mostly a win-win situation.

Here's my opinion, if you pirate a game, an album, or a movie, you will appreciate it less than if you would have purchased it. If I purchase a game, I will squeeze every ounce of entertainment out of it, because I purchased it. But if I pirated it, I'll play it for a few hours, and if I don't get hooked in, in the first 3 hours, then I put it down and go on to the next. When purchasing games, you're more prone to getting every dollar and amusement out of it, rather than if you would have pirated it. I make sure that I take every and any opportunity to pirate a product. I only see movies that I have a strong relationship with, (meaning, a series, or a company), if I am slightly iffy about a film, I'll wait until a DVDRIP is uploaded in torrent form, then I watch it. Today's Video Games are more difficult to pirate, and so I purchase games for the XBOX 360 and the like. But when purchasing games that were released a few years ago, you aren't losing much.

When it comes to purchasing machines and gadgets, I wait until it goes down in price and as well as popularity. If time can warrant a drop and price then I wait for the price to drop before purchasing.

 

[Spunky]

The morality of the subject isn't always black and white. It depends heavily on the circumstances. If you have no money, pirate away. If you have money but need it for living essentials, pirate away. If you have extra money but choose not to spend it, get raped in prison. But I also agree with Sub's take on it.

 

[Akation]

The morality of the subject isn't always black and white. It depends heavily on the circumstances. If you have no money, pirate away. If you have money but need it for living essentials, pirate away.

That still doesn't justify it though, if you don't have enough money, don't steal it, just live without it.

 

[Chakra-X]

You can rend a game for less than 10 dollars for a week. More than enough time to beat it for some people/games, and at the fraction of the cost for the full game. I can understand the urge to just get things for free.

There are PSP games I could be pirating on to my PSP that I legitimately want, but I can get them for $20 or less used, so I'd like to show my appreciation by getting them. I just do not have the money to be spending on games I'll play every now and then, especially when they are essentially ports. I'll just wait till I have that kind of money, or rent it for awhile on gamefly.

That's another thing. Gamefly. Unless you are a PC gamer, this gives you access to thousands of games from this and previous generation games. You can keep two games as long as you like and only pay something like $22 a month. You could also send them back the next day. I use this and the amount of games I have bought have dramatically decreased (a lot of the "keep it" prices are also usually lower than Gamestop used prices).

Games and movies have the weakest rationalizations in my opinion. It really is an extreme temptation to get something for free relatively easily and quickly. If piracy was more well known, and if consoles were a lot easier to practice piracy on, you can bet the game industry would be in trouble. Movies operate differently from games because they have multiple sources of revenue and their general audience isn't as piracy-savvy. Games rely on the gamers.