What made 1.0/1.1 great?

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This thread is in response to something Mountain Dewd said.

Many of us have been around for quite some time, and frequently talk about "the good 'ol days." What was it, exactly, that made the good old days so good? I know for some (myself included), it is simply nostalgia. Memory, the passage of time, and our imagination make "then" seem so much better than the now.

So what is the purpose of this thread? Well, to put it simply, we're going to try to figure out what made 1.0 and 1.1 so great and what aspects of 1.0-1.2 should be incorporated into 1.3. As we all know, 1.3 is the last version of ESF. This means that if we intend on sticking around, this is our last chance to make ESF something everyone can enjoy.

For me, what I loved most about 1.1 was the progression from "noob" to "pro". At the time, I was really into DBZ, so I had the saiyan mentality while playing. I would play for hours at a time, learning the ins and outs of ESF. As a noob, I got beaten a lot, but every fight was a learning experience, and every fight was different. I actually studied the people I fought and looked for patterns and ways to exploit their weaknesses. Some people just waited and tried to LSM, some people were extremely offensive, and others loved to teleport like there was no tomorrow.

I never really got to "pro" status in 1.1, but the ride to 1.2 was still fun as hell. I improved every single day, and people noticed. Once you became "pro", you could begin learning more advanced "techniques", like the beautiful combos used by the best of the best. 1.1 was always a learning experience. Always. You kept learning, you kept getting better. The pros enjoyed it, the average players enjoyed it, and while lots of people complained about being pummelled all the time, I enjoyed the game as a noob.

The problem with 1.2 is no matter who you're fighting, you feel like you've had that fight before. It's 2 hits in the air, 1 hit on the ground, followed by ki blasts or gen beams. That's what everyone goes for. As for "styles", people either run or they attack head on or they just shoot gen beams. There's no variation in how people fight. Defensive fighters seem to get a huge bonus in that they'll either get the hit when being chased or a HOW (which is still a win for them as far as I'm concerned).

While it's fun to go from noob to pro in 1.2, there's nothing to do afterwards. It just isn't fun having everyone fight the same way. This causes people to leave. Who keeps this game alive? Clans do. Most clans are made up of pros, so it's really the pros that keep ESF alive. Once they realize that there's just no variation in styles and there's nothing left to do, no room to improve and nothing new to learn, they get bored, quit, stop paying for servers, and ESF dies a little. That's what has happened over the last couple of years. ESF has basically just dropped dead, the usual suspects return, make a clan, buy servers, quit, stop paying, and ESF dies again.

I'm kinda going off on a tangent, so I'll try to focus. The team is forcing people to play a certain way instead of allowing us to choose how we want to play. This is most evident in the two swoops in 1.3, and how they are controlled and how they react to our commands. This causes stagnation in the community. 1.3 is following 1.2's pattern as far as I'm concerned. Removing the teleport delay is great, but having the 2 swoops there kinda cancelled that out. One was replaced with the other, and now we're in the same situation as before. Freedom of choice and movement is essential to ESF's survival. Don't tell us how to play. Let us figure things out for ourselves. Don't force us to fight the same way as everyone else.

I'm probably going to edit the hell out of this or just make another post since I don't feel I made a point, but now it's your turn.

What say you fellow esf players?

---------------------------------------

Thought I'd throw this in for additional commentary on how we (the team) can make ESF better:

We're all concerned about the direction ESF seems to be heading, and some of us are concerned about how disconnected the team seems to be from the community, or at least the part of the community that actually plays the game. Most people don't realize this but very, very few people who post on these forums actually play ESF on a regular basis. The problem is that when something like the Open Beta comes along, the people who never play decide to try it out and say how awesome X and Y are. Meanwhile, the people who actually play are trying to explain that X doesn't work out at all and Y needs to be tweaked. But because the people who don't normally play far outnumber the people who do on this forum, it seems like the team is voting for the majority, when that just isn't the case.

The people who don't normally play don't care what happens to the game, because...duh, they don't normally play. The rest of us like this game, want to keep playing it, and don't want it to get screwed up because someone suddenly has the idea to throw everything away and copy a mediocre game. In the end, we're probably going to get shafted again, but we'll deal with it, and the same people who have always been good at the game will become top tier players in 1.3; something the team was hoping to avoid. But, as always, we'll get bored of being "numba 1" due to the system, and we'll leave, new players will join, get their asses handed to them by the next best players, leave, so on and so forth. It happened in 1.2, and it will happen in 1.3 unless they take the pro level into consideration this time. Attracting new players is all fine and dandy, but we need something that makes us:

1) Want to become "pros"
2) Want to stick around when we're pros.

That would keep people from leaving, give people a long term goal, and would make the ESF experience enjoyable for all. Most of the time, the best players are kind enough to take the time to teach everyone else how to play, so they'll be providing the next generation of pros with the know-how.

It's win-win for all. Stop forgetting about us.

EDIT: "So what is the purpose of this thread? Well, to put it simply, we're going to try to figure out what made 1.0 and 1.1 so great and what aspects of 1.0-1.2 should be incorporated into 1.3. As we all know, 1.3 is the last version of ESF. This means that if we intend on sticking around, this is our last chance to make ESF something everyone can enjoy."

I expanded it to 1.2, since 1.3 really just branched off of that version.
 
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How nostalgic eheh... When we was meant to learn how to kill THAT guy... That's what makes ESF so diffrent from another HL Mods.

Something that I like from 1.0 - 1.2.

I really like the way of swoop / teleport / energy can fight by 'itselves'.

With the fighting system atm, it's POSSIBLE to choose one of this 'topics' and fight for it, in other words; In ESF 1.1 - 1.2, you can be a Wizard, a Teleporter, a Swooper... Because the swoop works fine (great distance and fast reaction by itself), the teleport works fine (great distance and fast reaction by itself), the energy attacks works fine (turbo beamjumps for fast moving, great area damage, teamed up with a 'good' sensibility can turn you into a 'ESF Sniper')...

Well I was teaching some guy on how he could choose a style, or how to use all styles at the same time and he made a video of it... Maybe you guys could understand a little of it (turn of the sound, the guy was a newbie at editing it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIfDoQYNKmU

Well that's all for me at this moment. Thank you for creating this post!
 
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As a noob, I got beaten a lot, but every fight was a learning experience, and every fight was different. I actually studied the people I fought and looked for patterns and ways to exploit their weaknesses.
You really summed up my feelings there, this is one of the main reasons Esf is a better game than Sparking Neo, You arent given a direction you have to take, there is no "right" way to play, sure some ways are cheaper than others, but there's always another approach you could take that could be rock to your opponents scissors, thats what made the game so flexible and fun.

a learning experience. Always. You kept learning, you kept getting better. The pros enjoyed it, the average players enjoyed it, and while lots of people complained about being pummelled all the time, I enjoyed the game as a noob.
I've always felt strongly about this, what you just said is what Esf is about, the ability to run into an opponent, and actually have to learn how to beat him.

The people that complained about being pummeled and quit instantly are not who the game should be directed towards, they contributed nothing to the game, and deserve nothing in return.

Freedom of choice and movement is essential to ESF's survival. Don't tell us how to play. Let us figure things out for ourselves. Don't force us to fight the same way as everyone else.
I really cant add to that in any way, I agree completely.

Alot of what made Esf great, wasn't exactly intentional and this open beta has huge potential thanks to community input, but to me it feels as if Ideas are only really listened to if they dont conflict with the team's plans (simple melee and ad melee for example) its open beta, but its not exactly open for discussion.

If what Davidskiwan said is true, about certain members of the team thinking the new movement system was a complete success, then these team members dont understand what made the game so great in the first place.

I really love to play esf, and am extremely greatful to the team for developing it for free, It just seems to me like they have lost perspective.

I'm going to link a few regular Australian players to this post and see what their thoughts and feelings are on the subject.
 
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I agree so much with most of the things mentioned in this thread.

Games like tenkaichi sparkling neo don't have the same appeal as esf does, for the fact that in tenkaichi you're given an instant set counter to any situation, set moves and set limits. Games like that don't have the same dbz feel imo, because in neo, you know you can win, its do this do that, you've won. This makes the game incredibly linear, and certainly doesn't give it that feel of "I'm training as a great saiyan warrior! I will become more powerful than everyone!". ESF really gives that feel of growing stronger - as if your skill level is sort of your powerlevel... I can't explain it in a way that doesn't sound incredibly corny >_< but to me, this was the greatest appeal of the game, because it gave a much more of a dbz feeling than any other game I've played.

I cant say too much about 1.0 or 1.1 to be honest I only ever played it a few times online, mainly because I found online playing way to scary at the time. It wasnt till 1.2 came out I saw that I could get past the sucky phase, and that was only because I actually gave it a chance.

Some team members think that the new movement system has done what it set out to do, make swoop movement based, and dash for close ranged combat. In a way they're right, but you can see people trying their best to break that mold. The players want to be able to develop their own way of fighting, and dashing limits us so much its not true. I've already explained several times about how I think movement regardless of beams, simple or advanced melee have nothing to do with how much simple melee was used in the previous version. Yet the most brutal parts of melee from 1.2 have been accentuated, renzoku is just death from above, people go flying into the nearest wall/floor and they get sploded by kiblobs galore, generic beams still have their powerlevel booster, a fully transformed player will spread his beams of death after every melee encounter completely destroying new players to the server before they get a chance. No tele delay is great, but teleporting rapid ki blasts is again just absolutely brutal. Imo they've made what was wrong with simple melee worse =/ and its all because the movement is so appalling.
 
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Editted the original post:

"So what is the purpose of this thread? Well, to put it simply, we're going to try to figure out what made 1.0 and 1.1 so great and what aspects of 1.0-1.2 should be incorporated into 1.3. As we all know, 1.3 is the last version of ESF. This means that if we intend on sticking around, this is our last chance to make ESF something everyone can enjoy."

I expanded the scope of this thread, because I just realized most people are probably in Skiwan's boat (meaning most of the people who play now either started with 1.2 or became super active during 1.2).
 
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I think the true problem is (as already mentioned here or in that other thread) that most of us developers literally suck ass in the game.
Now I definitely agree with you that something is wrong about the ways it is now but actually I think its a step into the right direction
 

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Firstly, I'd like to just say that I was a huge critic of 1.2 when it first came out. I've learned to get over it and have grown to love 1.2, but it does have faults. I don't think you should be asking what made 1.1 great, rather, why isn't 1.2 as great?

To answer your question though, I don't think you can pin it on any one thing. Generally speaking, people stuck around in 1.0 / 1.1 without quiting. The community was larger because of this. Instead of getting dominated without a hope for survival, noobs had LSMing and Howing which provided them with some chance of winning. People don't like playing a game if they aren't winning. Oddly enough, something which was a horrible, horrible fault in the game may have ended up helping the game gain more players. Probably lost a few of the pro players though.

People actually did things in 1.1. Case and point, Scorcher and his tournaments, http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?t=26188.

Comparing 1.1 to 1.2, the target box around the opponent helped the game out a lot. It was a small thing that you didn't realize was awesome until it was taken away. Bring it back as an option, I say.

Than there's the fact that 1.1 was simple. 1.2 and 1.3 are setting out to be a big, epic game, but perhaps it's too much to swallow? Here we are, three years after 1.2 came out and we're still reminiscing about 1.1. Was this because of the awesome, epic advanced melee system? Well, surprisingly yes, but that system was epic and advanced because it was simple.

And finally, combos. I can't think of a gameplay feature in any game that comes close to being as awesome as the combo system was. They removed what was widely agreed as being the best part of the game.

Well, combos, and the fact that 1.1 didn't need as many small tweaks as 1.2 does. Don't get me wrong, I love 1.2, it's just.. 1.2 needs a patch, badly. I made a list of things which need to be changed about 1.2 for this thread, but that's kind of missing the point of the thread / off topic.


So, the community stuff like the lack of clans - The team can help that problem out by providing an ingame tutorial. More people learn the game, less people quit, more players for more clans. The main thing 1.3 needs is to go back to the gameplay philosophy that was behind 1.1 - Keeping it simple. Instead, I see them going in the other direction, doing things like adding in two swoops.

Just my two cents
 
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Pretty much everything I could say has already been said in this thread. Except for DJ Ready's post. I don't think it's going in the right direction, at all...
 

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To be honest, I think the fact that the game needs to have every transformation will end up ruining it, atleast at the pro level.
 
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Well i dident read all the stuff, but like Sub said people liked 1.0 because it was good, simple & fun, it was simple to play but yet very captivating with a fast gameplay. I remember my first days playing ESF 1.0, i dident liked one bit, but after playing every day four a few months i started to see what a fantastic game it was. When 1.2 was released i was rather desapointed.
I was like: Wtf is this, some new models here & there, a few punches, some arrows, & where is the ****ing square. Again after playing it four a few months i started to enjoy the game but not like 1.0 because in some aspects 1.0 was better then 1.2 . Also im 100% with what Dj-Ready said, Esf needs to go too the next level, & i think that 1.3 is the next level.

My two cents ;) .
 
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Also im 100% with what Dj-Ready said, Esf needs to go too the next level, & i think that 1.3 is the next level.
But that's just it. They're taking it to the next level of the same exact thing. More transformations, another new melee system, dashing, and some new models. Oh, and buddies that can actually sit there and do nothing, unless you do it first. WOW!

My opinion has not shifted. Come up with something truly interesting that will bring everyone together (again).
 
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The "next level"

I think thats just a massive cop-out, I'd like to see why you think its great, not a big vague blanket of an answer.

I personally like alot of the new features, its just the core gameplay thats been lost that I'm worried about.
 
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ok. These epic long paragraphs about previous versions of esf is getting old. Just state the exact changes that need to be made to esf, and explain why it would be better for the game.
 
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ok. These epic long paragraphs about previous versions of esf is getting old. Just state the exact changes that need to be made to esf, and explain why it would be better for the game.
Uhm, have you actually read any of those "epic long paragraphs"? That's exactly what people have been doing.
 
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But that's just it. They're taking it to the next level of the same exact thing. More transformations, another new melee system, dashing, and some new models. Oh, and buddies that can actually sit there and do nothing, unless you do it first. WOW!

My opinion has not shifted. Come up with something truly interesting that will bring everyone together (again).
Hmmm.....dont forget that this is an Half-Life mod, not a game made by some corporation who invested xxxxx millions $ in to it, meybe u expect to much from this mod Spunky. Face it the community its not going to be az it was at the begining when people playd 1.0 like crazy. Does war diffrent times.
And seying "i want everyone back together again", is like seying "i want Michael Jackson to be black again".



The "next level"

I think thats just a massive cop-out, I'd like to see why you think its great, not a big vague blanket of an answer.

I personally like alot of the new features, its just the core gameplay thats been lost that I'm worried about
I personally like all the new features two, every single one, it changes the game compleatly, allmost everything its diffrent from 1.1/1.2, meybe the sounds ar the same. That means that u have a hall new game to learn how to paly, but maybe thats just me.
 
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1.1....

i think what you guys arent realizing that in the final version (which is gonna be more like the settings on phobius's 1.3 server) alot of 1.1 stuff will be implemented. i was actually gonna make a suggestion for more of the stuff.

in the 1.3 server yoiu get a huge ass knockback which really adds to the game play. believe it or not the missing dashing and gliding DOES NOT ruin gameplay, gliding is still in if you do it as a turbo swoop. it may not be as fast and AS helpful but youll find that as you get used to it, its actually not needed at all (trust me ive been playing for a few months straight). the dream to me, and those of you that know me know why, is that the teleport delay is gone. yeah its ****ing gone. that means we can do the combos from the 1.1 days, but combined with the turbo swoop we can do it to a greater extent. but i think what made 1.1 really great was the speed at which fights were at. it was quite a few times as faster than 1.2.

what we need are some of the physics 1.1 had. such as when your recharged when you were swooping, you didnt just stop in the place that you hit E in. you were gliding along a little, from the videos ive seen and the 1v1's ive seen that had a big impact on gameplay.

all i think we really need is just to make fighting alot harder. thats all i really think is missing.

all in all though im actually really liking 1.3 right now
 
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What made 1.1 great? The melee, definitely. I liked it hell of a lot more than the current melee. Don't know why tho, maybe I'm just nostalgic. And yeah, we do need some stuff from 1.1 to be implemented in 1.3. The old teleport, swoop dust trails, etc.
 
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What made 1.0 great was the collaberation of efforts coming together to make a mod go from Alpha to Beta. Everything was new and shiny, the simple and crisp melee was king, due to targeting, but beams were useful at the same time. 1.1 was the best version so far. It was 1.0 with a power-up. You really could be clever and show people something new each fight. It really came down to the clever but responsible way you melee'd... having to hold down right-click, then left-click when you felt you had your shot. The coordination made you get into the game, made you feel like you had to constantly pay attention.

1.2 and it's step-child patches really dulled the game. It became so linear and more about spamming than strategy. If anything, melee became so simple, it really allowed people to develop cheap swoop/counter strategies. It took away from the game being about reflexes and relentless intimidation. People just kept doing the same thing over and over again, called you a hacker if you finally figured out how to get around it. Then, everyone took your new winning, but repetitive steps as their own, and the whole process began again.

1.2 = Cheap counter technique -> Better one -> 1.2.1 -> Better one -> 1.2.2 -> Better one -> 1.2.3

You didn't have to focus on being accurate at all, all you had to do was do was lay the same trap, knowing full well your enemy was forced to fall into it, allowing you to just sit there and farm kills off of them. If I want a MMO, I'll go play a real one, where I get rewarded with new stat boosting armor/weapons, and not just realizing that I'll eventually get bored of doing the same 5 things every fight, because they typically win.

You know what was the funniest thing I ever saw? Two people just standing there for about half a minute, waiting for the other to make a move, so they could Head-on. I mean they were so enthralled with abusing something they've seen work countless times, they were willing to look like a complete tool to use it. Those bastards ate my SBC, then finally did something.

If you really want to give 1.3 more glory than 1.0/1.1 days had, don't make the game about a dance routine. You should make it about unrelentless melee and amazing speed/agility. 1.2 was annoying because you would be in a zone of moving around and dueling, then someone decided to left-click, and your forced to spam arrows keys in hopes of winning some vibe-ruining and stationary bleh fest. I do not want my fight decided on glitchy animation, based on a shaky arrow-coreographed combo system. I was really glad the Dev team decided to scrap that entirely awkward approach, and went back to making simple melee the entire point. It should just be about making the simple melee result have different effects that are related to order of operations.

I REALLY miss the days where you could chain any beam to melee or melee to any beam. 1.2 really made you feel like you had to do melee then use ONLY ki blob to finish off the guy laying on the ground.

It needs to be about widespread creativity, not just one popular technique over and over. It's like the Dev team decided to bridge the gap between noob and pro, but only allowed the pro to get comfortable, and completely drive the noob away.
 
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What made 1.0 great was the collaberation of efforts coming together to make a mod go from Alpha to Beta. Everything was new and shiny, the simple and crisp melee was king, due to targeting, but beams were useful at the same time. 1.1 was the best version so far. It was 1.0 with a power-up. You really could be clever and show people something new each fight. It really came down to the clever but responsible way you melee'd... having to hold down right-click, then left-click when you felt you had your shot. The coordination made you get into the game, made you feel like you had to constantly pay attention.

1.2 and it's step-child patches really dulled the game. It became so linear and more about spamming than strategy. If anything, melee became so simple, it really allowed people to develop cheap swoop/counter strategies. It took away from the game being about reflexes and relentless intimidation. People just kept doing the same thing over and over again, called you a hacker if you finally figured out how to get around it. Then, everyone took your new winning, but repetitive steps as their own, and the whole process began again.

1.2 = Cheap counter technique -> Better one -> 1.2.1 -> Better one -> 1.2.2 -> Better one -> 1.2.3

You didn't have to focus on being accurate at all, all you had to do was do was lay the same trap, knowing full well your enemy was forced to fall into it, allowing you to just sit there and farm kills off of them. If I want a MMO, I'll go play a real one, where I get rewarded with new stat boosting armor/weapons, and not just realizing that I'll eventually get bored of doing the same 5 things every fight, because they typically win.

You know what was the funniest thing I ever saw? Two people just standing there for about half a minute, waiting for the other to make a move, so they could Head-on. I mean they were so enthralled with abusing something they've seen work countless times, they were willing to look like a complete tool to use it. Those bastards ate my SBC, then finally did something.

If you really want to give 1.3 more glory than 1.0/1.1 days had, don't make the game about a dance routine. You should make it about unrelentless melee and amazing speed/agility. 1.2 was annoying because you would be in a zone of moving around and dueling, then someone decided to left-click, and your forced to spam arrows keys in hopes of winning some vibe-ruining and stationary bleh fest. I do not want my fight decided on glitchy animation, based on a shaky arrow-coreographed combo system. I was really glad the Dev team decided to scrap that entirely awkward approach, and went back to making simple melee the entire point. It should just be about making the simple melee result have different effects that are related to order of operations.

I REALLY miss the days where you could chain any beam to melee or melee to any beam. 1.2 really made you feel like you had to do melee then use ONLY ki blob to finish off the guy laying on the ground.

It needs to be about widespread creativity, not just one popular technique over and over. It's like the Dev team decided to bridge the gap between noob and pro, but only allowed the pro to get comfortable, and completely drive the noob away.
Quoted for absolute truth and wisdom. You're completely right.
 

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1.1....

i think what you guys arent realizing that in the final version (which is gonna be more like the settings on phobius's 1.3 server) alot of 1.1 stuff will be implemented. i was actually gonna make a suggestion for more of the stuff.

in the 1.3 server yoiu get a huge ass knockback which really adds to the game play. believe it or not the missing dashing and gliding DOES NOT ruin gameplay, gliding is still in if you do it as a turbo swoop. it may not be as fast and AS helpful but youll find that as you get used to it, its actually not needed at all (trust me ive been playing for a few months straight). the dream to me, and those of you that know me know why, is that the teleport delay is gone. yeah its ****ing gone. that means we can do the combos from the 1.1 days, but combined with the turbo swoop we can do it to a greater extent. but i think what made 1.1 really great was the speed at which fights were at. it was quite a few times as faster than 1.2.

what we need are some of the physics 1.1 had. such as when your recharged when you were swooping, you didnt just stop in the place that you hit E in. you were gliding along a little, from the videos ive seen and the 1v1's ive seen that had a big impact on gameplay.

all i think we really need is just to make fighting alot harder. thats all i really think is missing.

all in all though im actually really liking 1.3 right now
Dark, it's great the teleport delay was removed, but you can't do combos like you could in 1.1, atleast not in the current version. The stamina system (another idea that needs to be scraped imo) prevents it.

I also still stand by my opinion that we need gloding back. Again, I don't remember anyone, not one single person, asking for it to be taken away.
 

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