Various Ideas.. & Rage Bar

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I was thinking of various ideas here, so instead of going into great detail about one, I'll just list them and see what you all think. I realize some are much more difficult to program than others, so just comment on what you like and don't like.

>When you shoot a Ki attack into another Ki attack, if it's weaker, it'll explode instead of disappear.

>Change swoop to take half a second to start, just to avoid players from gliding. I love gliding, but really, to make a new melee system, you need to get rid of it.

>Make Shift + Direction quickly spin your character that way. This can be used to avoid head-on attacks quickly or to put yourself in a better position to attack without teleporting. If this is used on the ground, it's much faster and more responsive. While on the ground, Shift + Up allows a short, quick jump that doesn't result in flying and may be used offensively.

>Reduce the melee range a bit to make it so you have to be more accurate and maybe closer.

>Make transformations either 5 seconds long with a taunt sound, or create ways for a player to transform faster WITHOUT having to increase their PL. The 10 second transformations lost its glamor to me awhile ago. A well-timed transformation seems cooler to me than one where you just sit there and wait while you get pelted with ki attacks.

>Thus I propose to add a Rage bar into the game that will allow the following:
The more you fight, the more the Rage bar builds up. It drains over time, and only builds when you land an attack.

-Knockback can be used to set up chain-melee attacks at a cost of Rage.
-Allows the player to transform faster and beyond what they can currently do depending how far the Rage bar is built up. There's too many ways to program this to discuss atm.
-Turbo drains Rage, but Turbo is improved to stay on even when hit, and allows more speed, recovery time, and PL.

This is how I see it:
Ki is the Pace bar to the fight. It prevents moves from being used continuously without end, and allows openings so players can be attacked. It sets the pace for how the fight works.

Stamina is a Defensive bar. It accounts for successive damage done in a shorter period of time, so if a player gets beat around for 10 seconds they'll feel penalties from it. In this regard, I don't think that Stamina should be used for teleporting, only Ki. Make it so certain moves can't be used when under a certain level of Stamina however, like Teleport and Swoop for example.

Rage is the bar that determines Offensive capabilities through an extended fight. The longer they fight, the more intense the fight becomes, and the more interesting it is.

So Ki sets the pace and creates openings, Stamina lost creates penalties and potential Finishers, and Rage allows the fight to become more interesting and intense over time. Even if Rage was ONLY used for transformations, it would still be extremely important.

You could make some classes benefit more from maintaining a higher Rage, like Vegeta. Or allow some classes to only transform through the Rage bar, like Buu. It'd just be another way to improve the overall scope of the game.
 
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I was thinking of various ideas here, so instead of going into great detail about one, I'll just list them and see what you all think. I realize some are much more difficult to program than others, so just comment on what you like and don't like.

>When you shoot a Ki attack into another Ki attack, if it's weaker, it'll explode instead of disappear.
i think it's fine as it is, but maybe a simple effect could be added like some dust or smth
>Change swoop to take half a second to start, just to avoid players from gliding. I love gliding, but really, to make a new melee system, you need to get rid of it.
i think somebody said that the swoop system is still wip, and i think the problem is not in gliding, but that the swoop/chainswoop got so much easier...
>Make Shift + Direction quickly spin your character that way. This can be used to avoid head-on attacks quickly or to put yourself in a better position to attack without teleporting. If this is used on the ground, it's much faster and more responsive. While on the ground, Shift + Up allows a short, quick jump that doesn't result in flying and may be used offensively.
use bigger sensitivity :p most of the good players use above 15, that really helps

>Reduce the melee range a bit to make it so you have to be more accurate and maybe closer.
it's already a cat and mouse game.. i don't think it's a good idea =/
>Make transformations either 5 seconds long with a taunt sound, or create ways for a player to transform faster WITHOUT having to increase their PL. The 10 second transformations lost its glamor to me awhile ago. A well-timed transformation seems cooler to me than one where you just sit there and wait while you get pelted with ki attacks.
yeah i agree, but for the first time u trans i think it should be long, like u know.. /me goes ssj for the first time gotta look badass! then the transformation could get shorter without gaining too much pl
>Thus I propose to add a Rage bar into the game that will allow the following:
The more you fight, the more the Rage bar builds up. It drains over time, and only builds when you land an attack.
and the purpose of the bar?
-Knockback can be used to set up chain-melee attacks at a cost of Rage.
-Allows the player to transform faster and beyond what they can currently do depending how far the Rage bar is built up. There's too many ways to program this to discuss atm.
-Turbo drains Rage, but Turbo is improved to stay on even when hit, and allows more speed, recovery time, and PL.
u can already do those chain-melee attacks, the knockaback limmit is removed, u can make like 10melee hits in the air if fast enough :p
This is how I see it:
Ki is the Pace bar to the fight. It prevents moves from being used continuously without end, and allows openings so players can be attacked. It sets the pace for how the fight works.

Stamina is a Defensive bar. It accounts for successive damage done in a shorter period of time, so if a player gets beat around for 10 seconds they'll feel penalties from it. In this regard, I don't think that Stamina should be used for teleporting, only Ki. Make it so certain moves can't be used when under a certain level of Stamina however, like Teleport and Swoop for example.

Rage is the bar that determines Offensive capabilities through an extended fight. The longer they fight, the more intense the fight becomes, and the more interesting it is.

So Ki sets the pace and creates openings, Stamina lost creates penalties and potential Finishers, and Rage allows the fight to become more interesting and intense over time. Even if Rage was ONLY used for transformations, it would still be extremely important.

You could make some classes benefit more from maintaining a higher Rage, like Vegeta. Or allow some classes to only transform through the Rage bar, like Buu. It'd just be another way to improve the overall scope of the game

did'nt answer to them all, gtg to school now lol
 
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How exactly do u think it would help a new melee system, that we dont know yet btw, if they make the game slower by having the player wait for a certain period of time before he can swoop again? To me that would be a reason to never play esf again...

And I agree with Doormat on the melee range. You would have to slow the game down way to much too make it playable with ur suggestion.
 
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How exactly do u think it would help a new melee system... I agree with Doormat on the melee range. You would have to slow the game down way to much too make it playable with ur suggestion.
For what I suggested in this thread alone, you're both right about it. I've made a few suggestions in the past which I will relate here.

I see swoop as being ONE method of attacking in melee, and not the ONLY way as it stands now. I think Swoop should have a limit on how much it can turn at a time with the mouse, as well as having a slight delay to initiate it. Since this causes your Swoop path to become straighter and more predictable, it changes how and when it's used. It would be used primarily to cause critical melee hits when timed well up close, to take advantage of sneak attacks if you were not on the enemy's scouter, and to close/create distance with other players.

As a result, you could make Swooping more powerful, like dealing more Stamina damage and making it take more Stamina to stand back up. This creates opportunities to use your good Ki attacks.

Also,

To replace the all-the-time Swoop, I think Turbo Melee should be considered. You can teleport, fly in every direction, use ki attacks, AND swoop too. Essentially you have more options during the fight instead of either just swooping around everywhere, or strictly using Ki attacks; It combines the two. Thus I think it's the best current feature in the game to expand off of without complicating and unfamiliarizing it.

The Rage bar is just an idea to allow more possibilities that Ki and Stamina can't do. Neither of them are increased the longer you fight. Neither of them give you bonuses. These are things that Power Level does, but it's permanently increased and doesn't depend on the current fight you're in. It's a culmination of all of your fights, and thus gives unfair advantages between players. The Rage bar could fill these gaps in PL differences.

On a side note, I mentioned Shift + Direction to maneuver because it would work well with the Turbo Melee idea.

Creating dust instead of an explosion would be a great alternative.

If Knockback doesn't have a limit, it can be abused. That's why I suggest having the Rage bar for it, but making it more effective, less reliant on PL differences, and better at creating openings.
 
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Yeah, I agree so far that swoop shoudnt be the only way to use melee effectivly. As it is now its way too difficult to hit someone with the teleport feature. However, that doesnt mean that they have to change the way swoop works - I pretty much love it as it is now - maybe change the speed as mentioned on the front page or work an the teleport thing, but limiting the way swoop actually works sound like 1.2 swoop which, for me, destroyed the game after enjoying the 1.1 system which was just pure fun.

Imagine ur in a though melee fight against someone as good as you and ur both have only little hp left. The next melee hit will be the finisher on both sides. Now he's swooping at you while u just stopped swooping and cannot teleport cause ur pl is to low, but there IS enough time and pl to escape via swoop. Just then u notice the delay ur talking about in and get hit and die just because of that... for me that sounds like the server would lag so that my reaction time is doubled and not like a way to improve the game.
 
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Yeah, I agree so far that swoop shoudnt be the only way to use melee effectivly. As it is now its way too difficult to hit someone with the teleport feature. However, that doesnt mean that they have to change the way swoop works - I pretty much love it as it is now - maybe change the speed as mentioned on the front page or work an the teleport thing, but limiting the way swoop actually works sound like 1.2 swoop which, for me, destroyed the game after enjoying the 1.1 system which was just pure fun.
I'm assuming you read my other post. That's great, thanks for really taking the time here. The only way that they could get away with not changing swoop would be to increase the range for teleporting. Otherwise speed needs to be lessened. If speed isn't changed, then they need to limit the maneuverability. Between these three factors, something has to give.

Imagine ur in a though melee fight against someone as good as you and ur both have only little hp left. The next melee hit will be the finisher on both sides. Now he's swooping at you while u just stopped swooping and cannot teleport cause ur pl is to low, but there IS enough time and pl to escape via swoop.
You say the next melee hit will determine it, keeping the perspective that swoop is the only way to fight here. There's plenty of options, like ki blasts, teleporting and basic flying melee. But why swoop? We're used to it being used as both an offensive and a defensive maneuver, making it both the safest and most effective way to fight. That's why you need to get rid of its defensive abilities by making it more predictable and less maneuverable imo. Otherwise it becomes the best option to fight with all the time.

Just then u notice the delay ur talking about in and get hit and die just because of that... for me that sounds like the server would lag so that my reaction time is doubled and not like a way to improve the game.
There's other ways to avoid being hit. If a Ki Ball stun was put in, you simply fire a Ki Ball at them and they stop in their tracks, and you follow up with an attack. If Swoop's speed is permanently increased as it stands now, then head-on attacks will be the most likely result, making it easier to hit them.

You can also use Turbo and Guard, so that melee attacks don't do any damage to you at all, and then follow up with your own. Unless they changed that from 1.2.3, that's how that works.

The idea is that swoop can't be used to escape so easily and drastically at once. If they teleport, they're close. If they guard, they're even closer.
 
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I'm assuming you read my other post. That's great, thanks for really taking the time here. The only way that they could get away with not changing swoop would be to increase the range for teleporting. Otherwise speed needs to be lessened. If speed isn't changed, then they need to limit the maneuverability. Between these three factors, something has to give.
Yea, I did read most of ur posts, altough I didnt get them all completly (my english is kind of rusty). If I had to choose between limiting maneuverability, decrease speed or increase teleport range I would go for the last mentioned, just because I think that the other two things are the most important feat of the game right now. Maybe the amount of Ki used could get changed for that.

You say the next melee hit will determine it, keeping the perspective that swoop is the only way to fight here. There's plenty of options, like ki blasts, teleporting and basic flying melee. But why swoop? We're used to it being used as both an offensive and a defensive maneuver, making it both the safest and most effective way to fight. That's why you need to get rid of its defensive abilities by making it more predictable and less maneuverable imo. Otherwise it becomes the best option to fight with all the time.
Well, Im just seeing it from my own point of view (how else;)): when Im in a long and though melee battle I just dont think of other possibilities like changing from melee to Ki blast and I meant that the player has so few hp left that even if he would block he would die :D (considering he would take any damage from a block at all). And to be honest: the way the Ki Balls never hit a target at close range, like they never do in the open beta, wont do in a melee fight :rolleyes:.
 
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If I had to choose between limiting maneuverability, decrease speed or increase teleport range I would go for the last mentioned, just because I think that the other two things are the most important feat of the game right now. Maybe the amount of Ki used could get changed for that.
Yeah I agree I'd increase the teleport range. I think that's a must.

A change to melee they mentioned was to increase the initial speed of swoop and have it slow down the longer it goes. The speed determines the damage swoop does now. This would sync well with creating a delay on initiating swoop, as they could increase the initial swoop speed even more to compensate. This would not change the amount of time it took for one player to get to the other, but increase the damage, and make it harder to recognize. It would also make swoop less of a defensive option, leaving the player open from an accurate teleport attack. Swoop is also less of an escape option unless predicted in advance.

So thanks, Daven. I think between us, a better alternative was created to fix this. Don't limit the maneuverability, make a delay on initiating swoop, increase its initial speed (and make a quick drop-off after 2 seconds). This also makes it harder to use gliding as a defensive option.

when Im in a long and tough melee battle I just dont think of other possibilities like changing from melee to Ki blast and I meant that the player has so few hp left that even if he would block he would die :D (considering he would take any damage from a block at all). And to be honest: the way the Ki Balls never hit a target at close range, like they never do in the open beta, wont do in a melee fight :rolleyes:.
By increasing the swoop speed as they've already done, head-on attacks are more likely now with swooping. This makes it easier to hit them with Ki balls. If you use Turbo and Block at the same time, it negates any damage from being taken. And about switching to Ki blasts, if they make the new melee system right, you'll have to get used to using what you've got at the right times. If the new system is all about swoop swarming, it won't be much different than 1.2.3.
 
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Yeah I agree I'd increase the teleport range. I think that's a must.
I take that back. This isn't an easy fix. Imo, if they make the right changes to Swoop, then they won't need to increase teleport's distance, and fights could be done within a closer range. Making teleport longer distance would just encourage longer-distance fights, and that doesn't go well with flying melee at all. :\

So again I say that Swoop does need its turning to be lessened to make it travel a straighter path, so that other close-range methods of fighting can be used and teleport can keep its shorter distance.
 

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