Ussj, ussj2 wah?

[wheres_]

On these forums there have been 2 rather pointless peices of contreversy surrounding some of the happenings in 'dragonball z' they being: The levels of super saiya-jin before ssj2 and if vegeta was in fact ssj2 before the majin saga.

Well in this thread im going to try and rub out the first one about ussjs and ussj2s wth the help of issues 16 and 17 of the shonen jump graphic novels.

Im going to try and prove that there are 3 levels of super saiya-jin before they hit ssj2.

Now on the pics in the cells that have numbers, the numbers stand for the from they are in:
1- normal
2-ssj
3-ussj
4-ussj2

And when it has 1-2, 2-3, 3-4 that is the transitional stage of the transformation.

Trunks

1:

----------------------------------------------------------------
2:

----------------------------------------------------------------
3:

----------------------------------------------------------------
4:

----------------------------------------------------------------
norm - ssj - ussj - ussj2

Goku
1:

----------------------------------------------------------------
2:

----------------------------------------------------------------
norm - ssj - ussj - ussj2

Yeah thats about it, take it as you want.

 

[frsrblch]

Did that stuff happen in the shows? I remember the scenes, but the actual individual transformations dont stand out in my mind. Didnt Trunks just go ussj and then kick the crap outta Cell?

...oh, nm. That was after Cell became complete, I see. Interesting theory.

 

[SailorAlea]

People already know this. People argue about all sorts of things. "USSJ" is a fan-made term, not one from the manga, anime, or movies. "USSJ 2" is obviously another fan-made term.

Whether they're actually forms of SSJ are irrelevant. You could describe either of your "USSJ" or "USSJ 2" as just "a really strong SSJ."

If you wanted to be as accurate to the show in naming your supposed levels as you could, you'd call "USSJ" "Super." "Super Vegeta," "Super Trunks," etc--because that's the only 'precedent' you can call upon--Vegeta.

In any case.. this argument is moot, because it's old and hardly anyone cares enough about DBZ to bother arguing about it.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Mewved tew Animeh.

 

[Hibiki]

actually the offical names for ussj and ussj2 are "the second stage of SSJ1" and "the third stage of SSJ1" as stated by goku

whole lot easier to say ussj1-2 instead of second stage of ssj1

 

[Rocky]

Then what is 'Ascended ssj' Is that ssj2? or ussj?

I specifically remember a part in the show where Goku and Vegeta discuss going to a level beyond that of a super saiyan, Ussj is definetly a level, but I'm against the belief of there being a second level (ussj2) Trunks just takes ussj further than Vegeta, in fact I believe that if he didn't realise the fatal flaw and had continued his training, he'd have reached an even further stage (ussj3?). I think the possibilities of ussj ascension are limitless.

In any case.. this argument is moot, because it's old and hardly anyone cares enough about DBZ to bother arguing about it.

Speak for yourself. I care enough about DBZ to argue this. DBZ was my first anime and remains one of my favourites.

 

[SailorAlea]

actually the offical names for ussj and ussj2 are "the second stage of SSJ1" and "the third stage of SSJ1" as stated by goku

whole lot easier to say ussj1-2 instead of second stage of ssj1

Actually, there are no "official names" or SSJ"1"--Goku never said any such thing in the show. Maybe in the dub, but then again--I don't recall him ever mentioning it.

Goku and Vegeta both talk about the need to go "beyond a super saiya-jin," but they don't know how to do it. Vegeta emerges from the room of spirit and time, and soon claims to have attained the next level and calls himself "Super Vegeta," supporting what I said earlier, in any case.

Speak for yourself. I care enough about DBZ to argue this. DBZ was my first anime and remains one of my favourites.

I am speaking for myself, and what I've observed from the fans of DBZ. People are 'moving on,' anime-wise and don't argue as actively as they did when the dub first aired here. This will progress as time goes on.

 

[SPIDER-BITE]

The advantage of seeing it like this is more transformations for my boy trunks in the game. Even if ussj2 isnt a 'real' trans, neither is mystic krillin.

 

[wheres_]

Well in those pics both goku and trunks make a very clear indication of transforming twice past ssj. I dont care what there called.

 

[Ravendust]

I neither know nor care about the japanese names, but the dub names are thus: (the episodes are when you first see the character in question in that state).

Using Goku as an example:

Normal - Dragonball - 001 - Secret of the Dragonball
Giant Ape (Oozaru) - Dragonball - 012 - A Wish to the Eternal Dragon
Super Saiyan - Dragonball Z - 080 - Transformed At Last
Super Goku - Dragonball Z - 150 - The Cell Games
Ultra Goku - Dragonball Z - 150 - The Cell Games
Super Saiyan 2 - Dragonball Z - 208 - Next Up Goku (possibly before)
Super Saiyan 3 - Dragonball Z - 230 - Super Saiyan 3!?
Golden Giant Ape (Ougon Oozaru) - Dragonball GT - 033 - The Tail's Tail
Super Saiyan 4 - Dragonball GT - 035 - Back In The Game

Using Vegeta as an example:

Normal - First Seen: Dragonball Z - 004 - Goku's Unusual Journey
Giant Ape (Oozaru) - Dragonball Z - 024 - Vegeta...Saiyan Style
Super Saiyan - Dragonball Z - 114 - Upgrade To Super Saiyan
Super Vegeta - Dragonball Z - 140 - Super Vegeta
Ultra Vegeta - Never (explains he could in 151 - What Is The Tournament)
Super Saiyan 2 - Dragonball Z - 213 - The Dark Prince Returns (as Majin)
Super Saiyan 3 - Never
Golden Giant Ape (Ougon Oozaru) - Dragonball GT - 059 - Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 4 - Dragonball GT - 059 - Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta

Using Future Trunks as an example:

Normal - Dragonball Z - 104 - The Mysterious Youth
Giant Ape (Oozaru) - Never
Super Saiyan - Dragonball Z - 105 - Another Super Saiyan
Super Future Trunks - Never (explains he could in 146 - Vegeta Must Pay)
Ultra Future Trunks - Dragonball Z - 147 - Trunks Ascends
Super Saiyan 2 - Never
Super Saiyan 3 - Never
Golden Giant Ape (Ougon Oozaru) - Never
Super Saiyan 4 - Never

So, there you go. I can provide pics on request. If anyone wants to copy+paste this and redo it for the japanese version then be my guest.

 

[Damaera]

Wrong here's the complete transformations Wheres_Warren

Trunks - SSJ, SSJ2(I forgot not really sure if he went SSJ2), USSJ

Goku - Oozaru, SSJ, USSJ, (Hyper Bolic Time Chamber, never really saw him use it in the later episodes) SSJ2, SSJ3, Golden Oozaru, SSJ4

Vegeta - SSJ, USSJ, (Not sure if he went USSJ I heard it's 'Super Vegeta' SSJ2, Babidi Control (Majin Vegeta)

Gohan - SSJ, SSJ2, Mystic

Goten - SSJ

Trunks - SSJ

Gogeta - SSJ, SSJ2, (?) SSJ4

Gotenks - SSJ, SSJ3


That's all I can remember, I don't remember any USSJ2 in DBZ/GT

 

[Ravendust]

Trunks - SSJ, SSJ2(I forgot not really sure if he went SSJ2), USSJ

He didn't go SSJ2

Goku - Oozaru, SSJ, USSJ, (Hyper Bolic Time Chamber, never really saw him use it in the later episodes) SSJ2, SSJ3, Golden Oozaru, SSJ4

He went two forms of 'USSJ'.

Vegeta - SSJ, USSJ, (Not sure if he went USSJ I heard it's 'Super Vegeta' SSJ2, Babidi Control (Majin Vegeta)

Super Vegeta is USSJ.

In short, Dream Killers list is massively flawed and shouldn't be trusted. No wonder there's confusion about the topic. If dub is your thing then my list is correct.

 

[SailorAlea]

Sorry, Dust. But your list is flawed, too.

These are the 'concrete' forms which are deliberately referred to as seperate forms, for most main characters. I am not including GT garbage.

Goku: Normal, Oozaru, SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3
Gohan: Normal, Oozaru, SSJ, SSJ2, Mystic
Vegeta: Normal, Oozaru, SSJ, SSJ2
Mirai Trunks: Normal, SSJ
Goten: Normal, SSJ, Fused SSJ, Fused SSJ3
Chibi Trunks: Normal, SSJ, Fused SSJ, Fused SSJ3

If you want to get into the "controversial" forms, that would be "USSJ" which is an entirely fan-made term. The only terms the character in the show who names this form is Vegeta, and he calls himself "Super Vegeta." From that example and comparing the forms, you can come up with "Super Trunks," who goes even a step further beyond into what some people call "USSJ." Goku also went to this USSJ form in the room of spirit and time, for a brief period, to show Gohan.

Trunks is the ONLY one who fought in the so-called "USSJ" form. He sacrificed his speed, for strength in his SSJ transformation. 'Super Vegeta' is not "USSJ," and 'USSJ' is not "USSJ2." People have gone crazy with these fictional, basically pulled-out-of-their-ass made-up names.

 

[Ravendust]

In any case.. this argument is moot, because it's old and hardly anyone cares enough about DBZ to bother arguing about it.

Well, you certainly flipped that one around.

Sorry, Dust. But your list is flawed, too.

I fail to see how, you just listed the same as me but without what you call the 'controversial' forms or GT. Not to mention the 'concrete forms' are incrediably obvious, and not what the thread's about.

If an official name isn't given to a form then what are we supposed to refer to it as? 'That form that Goku went in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber'? A fan-made term is a good second-best to the real thing. I listed dub names which aren't fan made (Super, Ultra), I blame the original japanese version for not giving the forms official names. If they have them then tell us so we can stop referring to them as 'USSJ'.

As I see it there are two 'translations' of the forms:


1:
Super = ASSJ (Ascended Super Saiya-jin)
Ultra = USSJ (Ultra Super Saiya-jin

or

2:
Super = USSJ (Ultra Super Saiya-jin)
Ultra = USSJ2 (Ultra Super Saiya-jin Stage 2 NOT Ultra Super Saiyan 2)

And that's where the confusion stems. That's why I stick to the dub names, they're straightforward and there's no confusion.

Two other points:

1. Vegitto went Super, hence Super Vegitto.
2. Ascended Saiyan (in the dub) is a Saiyan who become a Super Saiyan with 0 energy cost. I just thought I should mention that as so not to confuse it with 'ASSJ'.

 

[SailorAlea]

No, I didn't flip around anything.

In any case.. this argument is moot, because it's old and hardly anyone cares enough about DBZ to bother arguing about it.

I still believe 100% that hardly anyone cares.

Your list is flawed because you're "making up" forms.

In the inferior dub, Vegeta, just like in the original show, refers to himself as 'Super Vegeta.' There are other references in the dub to "Ascended Super Saiyan," which is what the dub calls the forms.

However, you're creating a non-existant combination of the word 'Saiya-jin' from the original series and 'Saiyan' from the dub.

Never once in the dub do they describe Trunks, fighting Perfect Cell in his "USSJ" form, or Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time, showing Gohan, as "Ultra" anything. Not once. So where the HELL did you get that name from?

Super = ASSJ (Ascended Super Saiya-jin)
Ultra = USSJ (Ultra Super Saiya-jin

Super = USSJ (Ultra Super Saiya-jin)
Ultra = USSJ2 (Ultra Super Saiya-jin Stage 2 NOT Ultra Super Saiyan 2)

"Ascended Saiya-jin" is a bastard child mixing of the real show, and the dub. It's just plain wrong. And for the other, USSJ is a 100% fan-made term, so you're only arguing your opinion, not fact. And "USSJ2" is "SSJ Bull****" as well. Understand?

 

[s0da]

That sounds correct.

 

[wheres_]

Ok i dont care what there called, but cant we agree that there are infact 2 forms above regular super saiyan, before ssj2?

The pics speak for them selves.

 

[Ravendust]

"Ascended Saiya-jin" is a bastard child mixing of the real show, and the dub. It's just plain wrong. And for the other, USSJ is a 100% fan-made term, so you're only arguing your opinion, not fact. And "USSJ2" is "SSJ Bull****" as well. Understand?

Yes I do, I understand that the japanese version has no official names for those forms and thats why I said in my first post on this thread that I neither knew them nor cared about them.

Ok i dont care what there called, but cant we agree that there are infact 2 forms above regular super saiyan, before ssj2?

Agreed. Onto the other point of the thread.

It is impossible to know whether Vegeta could go SS2 before becoming Majin Vegeta, so the next best thing is fact-based informative guesses.

I believe he could go SS2 before Majin.

1. Majin is a relatively small fixed power boost, if Majin Vegeta could go SS2 then he must've had sufficient power to transform into SS2 before. The power boost was just enough to put him a little above Goku in terms of power.

2. His comment in Babidi's Spaceship when he see's Goku turn SS2. "So, Kakarot has reached Super Saiyan 2 as well." True he could mean "as well as Gohan." but i'm assuming he meant himself to help prove the point.

3. Practice makes perfect, Goku tells Future Trunks that it took him a while before he could turn Super Saiyan at will, and the same applies for Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta turns Super Saiyan 2 as soon as he gets the Majin power, which means he must've turned Super Saiyan 2 at least once before the Babidi Saga.

4. Similar to the above point. After Majin he could turn Super Saiyan 2 perfectly (fight against Kid Buu), if Majin Vegeta was the first time he went Super Saiyan 2 then he wouldn't have been able to perfectly control it in a single day.

5. He was training non-stop between the Cell Games and the Saiyaman Saga, he could've easily realised the form in that time.

If anyones got a counter-arguement, lets hear it

 

[SailorAlea]

If anyones got a counter-arguement, lets hear it

Well, I don't know if you call "Holes being pointed out in your theory" a counter-argument, but here we go.

It is impossible to know whether Vegeta could go SS2 before becoming Majin Vegeta, so the next best thing is fact-based informative guesses.

I believe he could go SS2 before Majin.

In other words, nobody knows, and you don't know either. All we know is you never see him as SSJ2 before he becomes Majin Vegeta, but you do see him as SSJ2 afterwards, non-Majin.

1. Majin is a relatively small fixed power boost, if Majin Vegeta could go SS2 then he must've had sufficient power to transform into SS2 before. The power boost was just enough to put him a little above Goku in terms of power.

Pure speculation. You have no idea how much power or regenerative ability being controlled by Babadi granted him. You don't know whether he could go SSJ2 or not before, either. Also, the power boos tdidn't put him "a little above" Goku, they were completely even.

2. His comment in Babidi's Spaceship when he see's Goku turn SS2. "So, Kakarot has reached Super Saiyan 2 as well." True he could mean "as well as Gohan." but i'm assuming he meant himself to help prove the point.

There's no reason to think Vegeta was talking about anybody but Goku. However, I don't believe he actually made this comment.

 

[Ravendust]

In other words, nobody knows, and you don't know either. All we know is you never see him as SSJ2 before he becomes Majin Vegeta, but you do see him as SSJ2 afterwards, non-Majin.

You're joking right? I said there's no way to know, and you said 'you don't know either'. That's exactly what I said, if there's no way to know then how would I know? I don't, and I clearly said that. Rephrasing what I said can hardly be considered as being a 'hole in my theory.'

Pure speculation. You have no idea how much power or regenerative ability being controlled by Babadi granted him. You don't know whether he could go SSJ2 or not before, either. Also, the power boos tdidn't put him "a little above" Goku, they were completely even.

Again, saying what I already said. Congratulations. The power boost however did put him a little above Goku, they were fighting evenly up to a point, but Vegeta did have a very slight upper hand. If they were completely even then they wouldn't hit one another, but Vegeta got more hits in than Goku.

There's no reason to think Vegeta was talking about anybody but Goku. However, I don't believe he actually made this comment.

Of course he was talking about Goku...Kakarot is Goku. He could have been commenting on the fact that Goku reached SS2 as well as Gohan, but I believe he was talking about Goku reaching SS2 as well as himself.