Two considerations for a better gameplay

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Consider removing the recharge button or give it a completely different function. I know that it's been brought up before, but I'm bringing it up again with, possibly, my own unique outlook on it.

KI rate would replenish automatically and depend upon two factors: Level of current Stamina and Turbo. High Stamina causes it to recover really fast, so you never have to worry about it, while Turbo causes it to recover more slowly as it reduces Stamina. This then also reduces swoop speed when it gets low enough. The balance would essentially allow a person to use Turbo with half stamina, but recover KI more slowly and make them less mobile, but potentially just as strong.

Turbo off increases Stamina recovery rate, so it creates a triangle relationship.

Currently it's sort of like this, but it's not. Turbo decreases KI at a direct and fixed linear rate. It doesn't rely on Stamina at all. By making Stamina determine the recovery rate, we can remove the Recharge button's current use. This means if you're getting low on KI you can't just tele-spam away and heal it back wing-a-ding-ding... UNLESS your Stamina levels are high.

So maintaining full stamina bar against a new or better opponent will often be your best bet, as it will allow you to play better defensively. If you overextend yourself, you're forced to play defensively in all aspects to recover your Stamina naturally, so you can then not have to worry about KI anymore. If you're a good player you'll never overextend yourself to the point of exhaustion, and you can both bounce back and forth between offense and greater offense (I said it right).

Recharge could do something else. Maybe it could sustain your current level of stamina and/or simply boost Turbo while in use.


Also, consider the possibilities of making KI attacks consume the BP bar instead of the KI bar, where the KI bar is solely the player's mobility and evasive tactics. Quick-recovery could use strictly KI, so players with more stamina can quick recover more often. This prevents them from being chain attacked as often. Blocking could use only KI, so a player with high stamina can recover from multiple blocks without tiring. On the flip side, he can't deal any damage until he transforms or charges Turbo. However if he does this, he becomes less mobile after a period of time and more vulnerable to attacks. I'm talking like maybe a straight minute of fighting untrans with charged Turbo.


Also, consider that BP will only accumulate while a player has Turbo enabled. He can get up to the 2nd bar with just regular Turbo. He can only reach the 3rd bar if he charges Turbo. This gives players incentive to attempt a grab at their current momentum to reach a devastating 3rd bar attack. If they fail, they need to play defensively to recover stamina and start over again. If they succeed at reaching the 3rd bar... look out! To make it fair, just balance it out so they actually have to work at it to get the 3rd up within a certain time frame.

The higher up players trans, the harder it is to get the 3rd bar, as it drains stamina faster. This creates a skill curve. If you can't handle fighting at SSJ2 and reaching the 3rd bar, then stay at SSJ1 until you get better. Make some characters noob friendly and able to do consistently well with their BP bars. Like Frieza, Krillin, and Piccolo maybe. They can transform and their charged Turbo stamina penalties remain the same. Cell could permanently have a higher stamina penalty with his charged Turbo, making his 3rd bar harder to reach. But his attack would be slightly greater than your average SSJ2 3rd bar moves. Character selection alone would tell you, based on this, how good the person is that you're fighting, or how confident they are that they can beat you down.

Kid Buu would be completely opposite, where he could maintain a charged Turbo almost all the time, but he would have no special 3rd bar finisher. Instead, he would have the benefit of using all of his lower level moves with a higher PL behind them.

Just some ideas, let me know what you like and we'll talk more about them hopefully.
 
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Or we could just keep it as now, have Ki maitaining be a key skill in ESF and have stamina take care of the telespammers since no stamina means no attacking or defending.

Same as last time. Your ideas are great but they would be more well suited for a different game than ESF. We are at the end of the process with a single release left. Switching to a gameplay system that throws everything that was part of the mod out the window for the alst release is a bad idea since the system may have some flaws that we would only notice after release. Its much easier to simply stick with whats known to work.

As for beams using BPs. Currently its hard enough to get bonus points for a tier 3 before you die without the necessity to add another thing to eat them away.

Im pretty tired so ill stick with this ATM.
 
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means with stamina now, Ping 0 "GGGGGG" players can't "GGGGGGG" anymore? that means they are "catcheable" over no ping?
 
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means with stamina now, Ping 0 "GGGGGG" players can't "GGGGGGG" anymore? that means they are "catcheable" over no ping?
Yes mass teleporting will drop your stamina to 0 in no time. So those ping 0 "GGGGGG" players will have it a lot tougher.
 
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Or we could just keep it as now, have Ki maitaining be a key skill in ESF and have stamina take care of the telespammers since no stamina means no attacking or defending.
Simple, I'll give you that. But at what cost? KI maintaining just serves to leave a player defenseless so that they can be attacked. That's how people would get hits in 1.2.3, because people needed to recharge, and that was the only time they weren't tele-spamming or buzzing around. Are there no other ways to create openings? You've limited teleporting for players, that's the way you've approached this issue. If people can't teleport as often, they are more vulnerable to attacks. So again let me ask, why would you still need the KI recharge key to create openings if they can't instantly move around as much anymore?

The reason you don't want to make Stamina work with KI management is because you want stamina to be mostly a limiter for teleporting. This ONLY limits stamina's potential however. Now you'll have a harder time incorporating stamina into other things, like Transformation times, instant-stopping, and using charged Turbo. Will people who use any of these now have to not use teleport, or else it will consume it too quickly? All this does is limit how often people will use teleport offensively, so it will mostly be an annoying defensive maneuver as Turbo decreases stamina. And it will be more annoying now since swooping is different. Yes, not impossible, I know. I've heard it. But why you'll add a pointless drag to changing directions than create something which will actually improve the game play, I don't know. It's part of the 'new realistic gravity' and what not, sure. But it still doesn't make the game better.

Same as last time. Your ideas are great but they would be more well suited for a different game than ESF. We are at the end of the process with a single release left. Switching to a gameplay system that throws everything that was part of the mod out the window for the alst release is a bad idea since the system may have some flaws that we would only notice after release. Its much easier to simply stick with whats known to work.
All you're telling me is that you aren't willing to think outside of the box on this. You want everything to be certain with no room for uncertainty. Your graphics department has been facing all sorts of uncertainties and look at how much improvement you've seen. I can't name examples, but I know for a fact, like the 'endless map' addition, you guys add it and then figure out what to do next. You don't say... well, that might cause some difficulty, so we won't bother with it. You'd reap the same rewards if you considered having the same approach to the game play. The first release doesn't have to be perfect as long as the last release is better than it would've been otherwise. You know what I'm saying? Why not release a game with different game play to see how people like it, and if they don't, THEN go back to what's tried and true? I realize though that game play tweaks are more reliant on code stability, and maybe that's where you're coming from. Still, how difficult would it be to make the BP bar depend on Turbo? Not every change has to be a difficult one.

As for beams using BPs. Currently its hard enough to get bonus points for a tier 3 before you die without the necessity to add another thing to eat them away.
There's plenty of ways to fix that. Increase the rate people earn BP without Turbo so that they can earn 1 bar much faster and thus use KI attacks often between exchanges. A Gen ball doesn't have to consume a whole bar, you know what I mean? Just a little bit. 1-2-3 bar attacks would still work the same way though.

And consider that if they aren't gaining BP, then they can't use KI attacks. Look, no more BEAM SPAMMING! You can actually have greater explosions now. I don't see the point in trying to separate melee attacks from KI attacks. 1.2.3's biggest flaw was not incorporating two well enough, so beam and melee attacks were most often out of sync unless you were using KI blasts, SBC, or Gallick Gun. On that note, I'd make KI blasts use 1 bar so that they couldn't be spammed as well. Nothing worse than a person with 10 times your PL blowing you out of the sky with its radius. Yes I realize this was 1.2.3. This game is based on its previous release after all.

As far as these ideas go, I'm just getting warmed up. I didn't think about these things a year in advance and claim that they're perfect. I have, however, constantly been building up these ideas from previous posts, and as an individual, I've put an incredible amount of thought into it over time. So what I suggest may be of some relevance to what ESF currently is, and most importantly, what it CAN be.

I've seen No Turbo as more of a defensive and conservative state. That's not changing too much about ESF to claim this, is it? I mean the series speaks true of that in itself. For example, when Goku and Cell are fighting in the Cell games, they're both fighting unpowered. What's the logical advantage to this (aside from creating more episodes)? Their attacks aren't as strong, but they're able to respond and avoid attacks much more easily to get a feel for their opponent. Just like a jab is quick and deterring.

No Turbo - You can earn up to 1 BP bar. BP gain rate is increased.

Turbo allows you to fight regularly. All balances in game play would be centered on this state. Explaining how game play works with Turbo on would be pointless, since it's how the game play currently functions. Nothing new.

Turbo - You can earn up to 2 BP bar. BP gain rate normal.

This is more of a last ditch effort. Your health is low, but your KI and stamina are good to go. Why die without giving it your all? This enables 3rd bar BP attacks which would deal significant damage.

Charged Turbo - You can Max out your BP bar. BP gain rate decreased. 3rd bar is thus harder to reach. Charged Turbo is best used after gaining 2 BP with regular Turbo, thus making it so there's less benefit to immediately powering up from the get go.

Another reason for Charged Turbo may be to use the Turbo BP. Has anyone figured out what this will do yet? From what I remember, there were some pretty outlandish ideas that could seriously imbalance the game play and create significant difficulty in coding, yet somehow it's been considered? They seemed like good ideas, but very hit or miss to me. Hmm...

So let me suggest what I'd like answered in a reply:

Why do you think a recharge button is important for game play? Is it correct to say that it's solely to create openings for players to attack, or is there more to it?

What is your answer to how stamina is being limited in its function? Do you think there will be problems balancing Stamina's Teleport consumption with other features such as Transformation States, Instant Stopping, and Turbo? Like if I was SSJ3 and my stamina was going down fast, would I want to use teleport if it consumed 1/5 of my bar? Probably not. So you'd make SSJ3 drain KI instead of Stamina. Now Stamina has less potential use in the game play... is my argument. Agree or disagree?

Do you think that BP levels being related to Turbo is a good idea? It would certainly give more offensive capabilities than just straight Power Level increases. I believe it was also said that BP should only be temporary. Do you think this would work in favor of that concept?

Do you think BP gain rates being related to Turbo is a good idea? I considered this a solution to your BP rate increasing too slowly. This would allow KI attacks and basic attacks to be used more often, but with less power. A KI blast with No Turbo as opposed to Charged Turbo would be completely different. It would add a whole new scale of unpredictability to players in how they would use their BP. Are they going straight for Turbo BP, a 3rd bar attack, or are they going to use a couple melee moves on me with devastating power?

If plausible, would you mention how a Turbo BP is planned to work? I'm curious to know.


And I'm sorry, one last idea here. I tend to edit a lot, so there's usually afterthought. If BP levels and gain rates were related to Turbo, then you could also make the different melee attack strengths be related to this as well. Simply put, instead of Transformation States determining Fast/Medium/Heavy BP attacks, Turbo would do that. Like how Charged Turbo modifies throw into a Grab and Smash attack, it would dictate Fast, Medium, or Heavy attacks. Why do this? So Turbo has more importance to gameplay. It'd be like, I believe, Ren suggested awhile ago with there being different stances like in Jedi Knight Academy. No Turbo - Fast, Turbo - Medium, Charged Turbo - Heavy.
 
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Lets see.

Stamina is not drained when you are using Turbo. You dont loose it, but you dont gain it. Meaning if you are doing actions that drain your stamina you will run out. If you deactivate turbo and use it wisely, then your stamina recovers, be it while swooping, or doing preety much anything thats not related to stamina consumption.

Transformations dont cost stamina, nor do they drain it. So that doesnt need to be balanced.

Teleporting doesnt cost any stamina the first 2 times. If you teleport a third time before a timer reaches its limit it will start to cost stamina again. So teleporting twice or 3 times fast wont leave you helpless. Youd need to spam teleport about 10 to 15 times before you are drained and with spam i mean tap the button like crazy.

Turbo has no effect on Bonus point gaining. You dont gain more and you dont gain less. The way bonus points interact with the gameplay is that they dont take anything away from it, just add special moves that are nice to look at yet not the easiest to pull off. Think of them as meteo attacks. And how the turbo bonus is planned to work is still confidential. But rest asured its not exploitable.

As for why the recharge button is a must.

Simple.

With the upgraded speeds of both characters and attacks ESF is even more wild than ever before. In 1.1 that wasnt a problem since you could only swoop forward, but with multi direction swoop it becomes harder to control. So if there i no pause in the actionyou would get people barely hitting each other while swooping round like a bunch of flies. The Ki management skill is exactly for that. Manage your Ki so that you can conserve more than your oponent or oposite if you are confident in your own abilities use turbo and deal more damage. Since turbo no longer turns off when you recharge it opened a new level of offensive/defensive playstiles.

But think of it like this. If no turbo would grant you a fast way to get to tier 1 which is the easiest to use of the 3 then the better players would abuse that easily. Youd get a repetition of nonturbo tier BP gathering followed by a turbo tier 1 for maximum damage possible. And noone would even bother to reach tier 2 or 3 since it would be so much harder.

Yes it does take a while to get to tier 3, but the tier attacks if used properly will be able to turn the tide of the fight in your favour. If you use them strategically, then good, if you dont then youll just be wasting your bonus points.
 
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I appreciate your time reading this, Grega.

Lets see.

Stamina is not drained when you are using Turbo. You dont loose it, but you dont gain it. Meaning if you are doing actions that drain your stamina you will run out. If you deactivate turbo and use it wisely, then your stamina recovers, be it while swooping, or doing preety much anything thats not related to stamina consumption.

Transformations dont cost stamina, nor do they drain it. So that doesnt need to be balanced.

Teleporting doesnt cost any stamina the first 2 times. If you teleport a third time before a timer reaches its limit it will start to cost stamina again. So teleporting twice or 3 times fast wont leave you helpless. Youd need to spam teleport about 10 to 15 times before you are drained and with spam i mean tap the button like crazy.
I guess my point on this is... Why doesn't Turbo use Stamina? Why don't Transformations use Stamina? Why doesn't Quick Stop use Stamina? IMO, the 2 free teleports is just a quick fix to address that stamina is being totally focused and limited to only preventing teleport spamming when there could be numerous other ways to do that. The reason Stamina isn't used in those other aspects of game play is BECAUSE all it does is prevent teleport spamming, while it could do both that and so much more. It could, for example, put a timer on SSJ3 Goku without hindering his mobility and potential.

Turbo has no effect on Bonus point gaining. You dont gain more and you dont gain less. The way bonus points interact with the gameplay is that they dont take anything away from it, just add special moves that are nice to look at yet not the easiest to pull off. Think of them as meteo attacks. And how the turbo bonus is planned to work is still confidential. But rest asured its not exploitable.
I was suggesting that it should only with the conditions I mentioned above. KI attacks using BP, Turbo and Charged Turbo making BP attacks Medium or Heavy. Without Turbo a player wouldn't be as strong, but they could use their BP 1 move more often, like a weaker KI blast and a Fast melee attack as a deterrent.

As far as the Turbo bonus goes, I can already guess what's being planned. Since Turbo raises PL and you wouldn't want the differences to be greater, you're going to somehow relate it to either BP gains (doubt it b/c it would be OP!), Stamina Invulnerability, or KI regeneration. My guess is Stamina will become Invulnerable and people can teleport around like crazy fools. And maybe it will regenerate KI so that SSJ3 Goku can do some damage and Beam battles will have some flavor. But who knows.

As for why the recharge button is a must.

Simple.

With the upgraded speeds of both characters and attacks ESF is even more wild than ever before. In 1.1 that wasnt a problem since you could only swoop forward, but with multi direction swoop it becomes harder to control. So if there i no pause in the actionyou would get people barely hitting each other while swooping round like a bunch of flies. The Ki management skill is exactly for that. Manage your Ki so that you can conserve more than your oponent or oposite if you are confident in your own abilities use turbo and deal more damage. Since turbo no longer turns off when you recharge it opened a new level of offensive/defensive playstiles.
Well people can fly around faster, yes. But there's also a drag when they turn and such. Teleporting will be how the pros land their hits most of the time is my prediction. Otherwise the high speeds will just encourage head-ons, and those are easily avoided. But anyhow, it sounds like you agree that Recharge is simply to allow an opening for a player to attack, except you're agreeing on the opposite end saying... I don't use as much KI so I have an opening. It's all the same thing really. Recharge creates openings.

If a player used their Stamina and they didn't have as much KI as their opponent, wouldn't that eventually create an opening too? Wouldn't limiting Teleport spamming like you have create more openings? So why the Recharge key if there are other ways to create openings for players to attack? Maybe a Gen Ball upon hitting the enemy could incur a mini-stun or prevent teleporting temporarily to allow an opening. Why not consider new ideas and get rid of the outdated Recharge key? That's old school.

But think of it like this. If no turbo would grant you a fast way to get to tier 1 which is the easiest to use of the 3 then the better players would abuse that easily. Youd get a repetition of nonturbo tier BP gathering followed by a turbo tier 1 for maximum damage possible. And noone would even bother to reach tier 2 or 3 since it would be so much harder.

Yes it does take a while to get to tier 3, but the tier attacks if used properly will be able to turn the tide of the fight in your favour. If you use them strategically, then good, if you dont then youll just be wasting your bonus points.
That's not difficult to balance out. Just make BP 1 do less damage in a No Turbo state.

No Turbo - 1 weaker fast attack
Turbo - 2 Fast attacks (or) 1 Medium attack
Charged Turbo - 3 stronger Fast attacks (or) 1 stronger Fast + 1 stronger Medium attack (or) 1 Heavy attack

The reason Charged Turbo looks uber there is because it has the potential for 3 Max bars. Otherwise, it would simply be a stronger Fast attack if only 1 bar.
 
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Id like to see anyone stay in charged turbo other than for quick manevers that require speed.

The Ki drain on charged turbo is high, but if used correctly it can become a weapon greater than anything else.

AS for limiting the SSJ3. Ki Drain should be plenty to do that. Since stamina regenerates automatically one would be forced to untransform, while if you are a skilled player you could still stay transformed for a longer period of time just by managing your KI correctly.

Besides stamina is used for a munch of features. Limiting teleports without a timer like in 1.2 is only 1 of them.

As for your bonus points. You were a tester for a while. You should be familiar with the bonus system plans. Acording to your idea people who dont use turbo would not be able to do the block tier attack and much less would they be able to use the turbo tier.

Since Block is Tier 2 and Turbo is Tier 3.
 
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Id like to see anyone stay in charged turbo other than for quick manevers that require speed.

The Ki drain on charged turbo is high, but if used correctly it can become a weapon greater than anything else.

AS for limiting the SSJ3. Ki Drain should be plenty to do that. Since stamina regenerates automatically one would be forced to untransform, while if you are a skilled player you could still stay transformed for a longer period of time just by managing your KI correctly.

Besides stamina is used for a munch of features. Limiting teleports without a timer like in 1.2 is only 1 of them.

As for your bonus points. You were a tester for a while. You should be familiar with the bonus system plans. Acording to your idea people who dont use turbo would not be able to do the block tier attack and much less would they be able to use the turbo tier.

Since Block is Tier 2 and Turbo is Tier 3.
Can't some of these things be changed though so they aren't so absolute? Charged Turbo doesn't have to be ridiculously hard to maintain, just more of a hindrance. If it drained Stamina, and Stamina maintained KI, then it would slowly make the player less mobile over time, and they'd have to play defensively without Turbo in order for it to recover. During that time, the other player would have more KI to attack with and could become more aggressive.

KI drain on SSJ3 will just make it take longer for him to Recharge, thus leaving a longer opening to attack. With all the high speed flying, Charged Turbo would be an easy counter to a SSJ3 player who is constantly having to hold the button down, nevermind if the SSJ3 uses Turbo or Charged Turbo. KI drain is again a quick fix that will hinder SSJ3 where stamina could be used instead, IMO.

I never got to use the Block Tier or Turbo Tier since they weren't implemented yet. But you could always make two Block Tiers, so one uses 1 BP and the other 2 BP, so they can be used in all states to different degrees. And yeah they couldn't use Turbo Tier without having built up their BP while in Turbo.

I don't see how that's a bad thing at all. It means that a player needs to keep Turbo on for some time before they can initiate it. By the time they initiate it, their stamina will probably be lowered down some, so this would allow them a second wind to extend their Turbo time with whatever bonuses Turbo Tier includes. It took Frieza awhile to go 100% and Goku some time to build up his Kaioken. He didn't start off his Kaioken maxed out vs Vegeta. Theoretically could they? Maybe, but I think Turbo allowing Turbo Tier paces the fight with more of a DBZ feel. They can't just go from defensive omg I'm getting a beat-down to... AHH I'M GODLIKE! If they wanted to do that they could just Transform. With Turbo Tier however, they would have to build it up gradually.

What other uses for Stamina are there besides limiting teleporting? And don't say the one where Stamina gets too low and they can't Teleport or use Turbo. I'm 'very' familiar with that idea. It was part of a design for creating a Close Combat system. It also is consumed in place of KI in Beam battles, another bit I'm well aware of. Then there's another use which I won't mention here having to do with KI attacks. So what else does it do besides those things?


I know you have things planned, but I still want to put in my 2 cents. Turbo Tier could work like this:

When a player uses Turbo Tier, they can't gain anymore BP, but they'll have 3 bars to work with. These 3 BP bars will have an improved strength to them, like Beam attacks will have an improved radius and travel faster including KI blasts. KI balls can be shot ridiculously fast, like how Vegeta does it after he knocks someone down. (KI balls could consume like 1/5 of a BP bar, so he could fire say 15 of them very quickly). You can also add some strategy to why a person may want to use rapid KI balls over a beam. Maybe KI balls deal 50% more damage comparatively when the opponent has no Stamina, while Beams will only deal 20% more damage or something.

On top of BP abilities being stronger, the player would have passive bonuses like improved KI regen. This would help maintain their Charged Turbo temporarily. Stamina would fill up all the way and then slowly drain, but it would be invulnerable. So the player could Teleport around and fight with KI being the only restraint. Teleport still costs KI afterall. The overall duration would depend on either the Stamina bar running out, and/or the BP bar running out. Afterwards, Turbo turns off and the player's stamina drops to nothing, and all BP is gone.

So Turbo Tier could be used as a huge burst in strength that can last for 5 seconds, or it can be extended and held onto longer for like 30 seconds for whatever bonuses it offers. Or they may want to do both, like keep it for 20 seconds and then blast the other person. So I would give incentive to immediate destruction by doing two things: If locked into a Beam battle, Turbo Tier can disappear, leaving the player with much less PL and no stamina reserves, AND the 3rd BP bar will begin to drain after 20 seconds of Turbo Tier. Any un-used BP disappears. Heavy attacks can damage an opponent's stamina, even in Turbo Tier, thus reducing its duration. So a player with Charged Turbo could still counter a Turbo Tier player.

So why not test this, mess with it, see what potential this idea offers. Don't just say... "Turbo Tier will do this one thing, and that is that." I think I have some good ideas, and you said so too, so why not give them a shot? Start with BP levels relying on Turbo and see how that works. If it doesn't, then you don't have to bother with the rest.
 
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The turbo tier design is pretty final and as its designed it allows the player to do what he wants with it. While it does give certain bionuses that depend on the character, its by no means a limiter. How you use the turbo tier is up to you. I wont go into details but as we designed it it will be possible to maintain it for a longer period of time and it will allso be possible to use ANY other attack, be it beams, melee or even other tier attacks.

But in order to even activate the Turbo tier you need to have Tier 3 capacity bonus points. If you dont have that many you wont be able to use it at all. And that kinda balances it out. Remember your bonus points get reset to 0 each time you die. So getting it will not be easy. Again your designs are interesting, but they are to fundamental for ESF. With those designs you are suggesting to pull a 180 spin on the course of the games gameplay. ESF is fast where each second counts.

Your designs on the other hand are a lot closer to NNKs gameplay system ratehr than ESFs. Fights that can be crazy fast at the begining but become slower and slower as they progress untill someone dies soulely cause both people would be runing out of energy.

And no There is no point in making 2 seperate Block Tier moves. Due to the nature of the block tier its unique and is one of the 3 generic tiers that all characters have.

Tier 1 generic is a beam/ball related tier which is specific to those generic attacks that all characters share.
Tier 2 generic is a block Tier.
Tier 3 generic is the turbo Tier.
 
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The turbo tier design is pretty final and as its designed it allows the player to do what he wants with it. While it does give certain bionuses that depend on the character, its by no means a limiter. How you use the turbo tier is up to you. I wont go into details but as we designed it it will be possible to maintain it for a longer period of time and it will allso be possible to use ANY other attack, be it beams, melee or even other tier attacks.

But in order to even activate the Turbo tier you need to have Tier 3 capacity bonus points. If you dont have that many you wont be able to use it at all. And that kinda balances it out. Remember your bonus points get reset to 0 each time you die. So getting it will not be easy. Again your designs are interesting, but they are to fundamental for ESF. With those designs you are suggesting to pull a 180 spin on the course of the games gameplay. ESF is fast where each second counts.

Your designs on the other hand are a lot closer to NNKs gameplay system ratehr than ESFs. Fights that can be crazy fast at the begining but become slower and slower as they progress untill someone dies soulely cause both people would be runing out of energy.

And no There is no point in making 2 seperate Block Tier moves. Due to the nature of the block tier its unique and is one of the 3 generic tiers that all characters have.

Tier 1 generic is a beam/ball related tier which is specific to those generic attacks that all characters share.
Tier 2 generic is a block Tier.
Tier 3 generic is the turbo Tier.
Well I suppose that's one disadvantage you have working so closely with the NNK team. Instead of making the game what you'd want it to be, you make it cover what you feel NNK won't be so as not to repeat the same kind of game play. Lots of pluses though, so it is what it is. It sounds like outside feedback and suggestions are really the best way to get around that IMO.

Anyway, I don't see how these changes would slow down game play. It would slow down players, but players can do more than just randomly move around looking for openings. A well timed Gen Ball, which COULD take no KI, can stop a player from swooping in on them. So if you're low on stamina, using KI attacks to deter the opponent won't hinder your mobility. This would help incorporate KI attacks into melee as well, allowing a temporary defensive play style. An offensive swoop-teleport could evade past it however, so timing a teleport when attacking is important. One of many circumstantial strategies that could be implemented.

Stamina regening KI would just swap roles between players. Both attack. The one who loses the most stamina first defends. The other presses their attack. When he recovers it goes back to Step 1 where both players attack again. One player may press an attack with Charged Turbo and then have to defend afterwards. So right here we have basically 4 scenarios for players' stamina levels.

High - High
High - Low
Low - High
Low - Low

I'd personally also like it if BP bar attacks did some stamina damage, but that's really more so what I'd want.

Players can run out of energy, yes, but they can gain it back too by temporarily moving to a defensive style. So the fight would work in many cycles, not just one cycle and it's over. And the outcome of those many cycles would each depend on how well they did during those cycles. Doing well in one cycle may have a great impact on the overall fight, but it wouldn't end the fight instantly.


With the way it is now, people will just use Charged Turbo to land a hit, turn it off. CT to land a hit, turn it off. There's no advantage to leaving it on, and the penalties of CT are greatly minimized when it's immediately disabled.



Oh and a last minute edit here:

If Stamina controlled KI regen, and Teleport consumed only KI (a player's mobility), then they couldn't Teleport/Recharge, Teleport/Recharge. They could teleport a few times, but then they'd be sacrificing future mobility VERY temporarily until it regenerated. Like if I teleported 4 times, my KI bar would be half full. The opponent, however, would have a lot more KI remaining simply swooping around. Unless they were Charged Turbo, but then they'd close the teleport distance faster anyhow. So that madness would still exist. We'll assume Charged Turbo doesn't deplete KI as fast as Tele Spamming to evade does.

This would be my solution to teleport spamming.

People would naturally limit their teleporting if this was in effect and you wouldn't need this '2 free teleporting' quick fix. Otherwise they'd teleport like 6 times and go... oh... I have no KI. I need to wait 10 seconds to refill my bar now. Crap. And now if they Throw me, I can't use Quick Stop. Throw could be your counter to Teleport Spammers. Manipulate the mechanics so if they teleport too much, they will have low KI, and in order to Quick Stop from a Throw, you need KI. Then make it so the penalty for not Quick Stopping on a Throw is greater than a Simple Melee hit, because Throwing would increase your down time and/or slow your knock back momentum on the first couple hits.

So right there, that COULD be your fix for teleport spamming. Teleport too often, you get very low KI, people Throw you. Throw adds decreased momentum on follow-up attacks, thus they get a couple more hits in on you. If you keep higher KI levels, if they Throw you, you can Quick Stop, and the amount of KI it costs to Throw and Quick Stop are relatively the same in KI cost, so it's not overly spammed. It just results in both players losing some KI.

In Charged Turbo, the KI cost to Quick Stop could be cut in half. That way it's not to your advantage to continually Throw a player to burn them out. It actually reduces your own KI by more and could potentially allow a counter attack if your bar wasn't full when you tried it.

You dig?
 
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While turbo no longer deactivates if you recharge, it still does so if you get hit with melee.

Also half the stuff you mentioned after that last minute edit is how it works ingame with stamina and KI reversed from what we have while you are unable to recharge it yourself.

You spam teleport and you are going to waste stamina where in your version youd waste KI.
Stamina then begins to refill itself WHILE you are playing. There is no need to sit round and wait for it again like you said for KI.

You allso said a full stamina bar increases your KI regeneration rate, well a full Ki bar in ESF will increase your stamina regeneration provided you are powering up.

And for charged turbo not having any advantages is a total miss. Charged turbo gives you the thing that gives you the most advantage in the game. And thats speed + power. Using charged turbo you are able to overpower and win a PS of a stronger opponent AND it can serve for surprise attacks as you mentioned. It gives you an advantage in every situation that requires a quick boost of power and speed. Heck it can even be used to outrun KI attacks. With charged turbo you pretty much fly faster than 80% of the attacks after you. Besides Charged turbo is a temporary boost. It lasts only about 5 or so seconds before your PL starts going back down again.

Make no mistake. Looking at DBZ no turbo is their usual state and turbo is their 100% state. Charged turbo on the other hand is past those 100% and passing the limits can not be sustained for long periods of time and it has a considerate energy drain. So im guessing we captured the essence of the idea.

As for why our system is not like NNKs. Its not cause we are working together. Heck if we wanted we could make an exact copy of their system, but that would only break ESF ^^;

We are making the system as we designed it. And code-wise ts already quite a way implemented. Sure there are still bugs, but what is mostly missing isnt code, its the FX. With that i dont mean the stuff dalte does, but rather everything that the player can see. Models, animations, sounds. Code-wise there are mostly bugs and tweaks to the melee system itself. You had access to the inteam so you should know how fast things can progress at times. And with the designs mostly finished and behind us, we are not really thinking of doing ANOTHER overhaul on our system for the final version. I myself and others who are part of the project, including people who play 1.2.3 on a regular basis mostly like the idea.

Our system is simple and straight forward. No complications, no lots of stuff to watch out for. The system itself is way more simplified than even the 1.2 melee system. Yours on the other hand would have players guessing how much Ki they are regaining based on how much stamina they have before they can even think of planing their next move, rather than just a go out and do it kind of mentality that thus far all ESF versions had.

Yes we are still looking at community ideas and feedback, but we will not be doing any major overhauls of whats planned.
 
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I've spent about 10 minutes reading this thread. It's a wonderful system, Disguise. I'm sure if ESF were earlier in its development it'd be a far more attractive idea.

Grega's right about charged turbo, it has massive offensive potential. The speed it offers makes assaults pretty cool, unless you miss. Stamina affecting Ki regeneration means that a player low on both doesn't really have any chance. Admittedly it encourages better management but at least with a fixed rate it'd allow a comeback.
 
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Thanks for the good discussion. I'll tuck these away for another day, another game maybe.


By the by, has the ESF Team considered releasing ESF 1.3 with Open Source code so that the community can gradually evolve it over the years? Or does the team want to keep it as-is for a keepsake? Or for future games which may use that code?

I'm just curious what the potential future might hold. A lesser 1.2.3 earned a few diligent AMX MODs. ESF 1.3 will bring in a whole slur of new people looking to augment their own gimmicks into the game. How much flexibility will they have I wonder?
 
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No. We will not be releasing the source code. Atleast its not planned.

If we want to give the comunity controll over the mod all we need to do is unlock the XML system to allow modifications to the game. Since basically everything thats not tied down to the source code itself is ran through teh XML system. Be it player characters, transformations, attacks, effects, sounds, maps. You name it, it uses the XML system. Ofcourse some parts of it will be locked after release. But if its decided on later they can be unlocked with a small patch.
 

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