tier bonuses

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i may have suggested or had this discussed before, but...

Tier Transformations:

certain characters have special transformations that only lasted for a very limited time, and because of that they werent really considered for 1.3.

my suggestion is that we make these specific transformations available in "tier" form.

of course, by transformations i mean the stuff like Majin vegeta, gotenks buu, mystic gohan, Ussj2 trunks, 100% frieza, and even ssj3. and i suggest SSJ 3 as well because of how it works, which i will explain in exactly two "enters".

HOW IT WORKS: (ok, exactly 3, technically)
it lasts for a limited time, depending either on how much ki you have or your skill with ki management. these are all, except for trunks, tier 3 abilities.

POSSIBILITY 1: (my particular favorite)
the ammount of time you get with the transformation directly corrolates with the ammount of stamina and ki (added together) you have when you, in your desperation, use the transformation tier. it constantly drains ki and stamina while the transformation is going, but normal actions and teleportation doesnt take away from the ki bar, although beams and blasts will. when you revert your left with next to nothing, stamina AND ki wise.

example, full ki and full stamina is 1 minute of use. it IS actually balanced but just ask if you need a fuller explanation.

POSSIBILITY 2: (gives you time to play with, but i dont really like this)
the ki drain is pretty insane in this possibility so you would need to have a much higher degree of control in what you do. everything you do will also have an increased stamina drain as well. but when you run out of ki you revert and cant teleport or use beams. likewise if you run out of stamina you revert and cant swoop or move all too fast.

as i said, i like the first possibility because it gives a rushed feeling, as in you only have this ammount of time to end the duel before you run too low on power and revert.

SPECIFICS:
Majin(vegeta): increase in speed and strength, weakened defense. can only be used on ssj2. (goku's evil counter-part basically.)

SSJ3(goku): increase in speed and strength, weakened defense. can only be used on ssj2.

USSJ2(trunks): increase in strength and lasts 1.5 times longer than usual, very slow. only used on ussj form 1. available as a tier 1 attack?

100%(frieza): high increase in strength, moderately slow speed. only used in last form.

Gotenks(Buu): gives access to new attacks, shorter time. kamikaze ghosts and galactic donuts. neither costs ki, thanks to the way the tiers work, but they do low damage. the ki/stamina bar drains quicker.

Mystic(gohan): large increase in speed (swoop and teleport), higher combo ability, weaker strength. used on ssj2. I'm assuming this will be disregarded since it would be weird for kid gohan to have a mystic form, but i thought i may as well add it.

if there are any possible transformations that i may have missed, speak up.
 
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I would love to see this come into play.
 
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A timer for those transformations sounds good. :)
 
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We seriously need to update the melee design for the public is what i say ^^
 
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I like the idea of limited SSJ3 time.

Anyway I'd say that those tier bonuses should be limited, but wouldn't have negative effects, like drop in defense.

SSJ bonuses could be:
Buu: All apsorbation forms, like Piccolo, Gohan and Gotenks.
Goku: SSJ3.
Gohan: SSJ, when he can't really transform yet (when he was in ROSAT and transformed for a sec, not sure if it was SSJ or SSJ2).
Frieza: 100% Frieza
Trunks: USSJ2
Vegeta: USSJ or Majin, when he can't transform into SSJ2 yet (if Majin, then after you became Majin, you can transform into Majin SSJ2).
Cell: Perfect form of Perfect Cell (when he revived after being blown up by Goku, had lightning).

Those shouldn't have any negative effects in strenght/def/speed (speed only reduced in USSJ form), but stamina and ki should drain much faster and you must manage to avoid it from draining completely, otherwise you end up with empty ki & stamina (unless you die because of empty stamina), rewersed from bonus form and descended to the basic form. If you're in air - you fall on ground and wait till you stand up and can recharge.

Those bonuses should only be available once per life or a delay should be added.
 
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I like all of the ideas about making these transformations unique to each character in terms of what bonuses and possible attacks they can get.

I think instead of limiting this kind of transformation with Ki or Stamina, which Ki regenerates quickly and stamina fully within 10-15 seconds... why not make this a part of the SAM bar? Full SAM bar and you get this kind of transformation. Based on how fast it's tested to consume and replenish based on the combat, you could have 1/3 of it taken out when you initially use it, or nothing at all.

Assuming the SAM bar has 3 tiers, which I think I've heard, then why not make it increasingly more difficult to fill it up as it goes on? Tier 1, easy to get to. Tier 2, little more difficult. Tier 3, like a combination of 1 and 2.

If the consumption rate then became percentage based, it would become nearly impossible to keep it filled to the max, giving you a less maximum trans time, but easier to sustain it at lower levels, meaning if you can keep a somewhat steady fight under that state, it will maintain until you're not fighting anymore. If you gain bonus points for the bar faster when fighting a higher PL opponent, for example, it'd be easier to maintain this state against a significantly stronger opponent. If you use it against a significantly weaker opponent, it will be very hard to maintain.

This all depends on how they plan on using the SAM bar with other attack options though.

I like the idea of not consuming Stamina in this state. It's somewhat similar to an idea I had too where it'd be more useful to use it in a pinch, where Stamina couldn't be damaged or altered at all, and it would aid PL struggles as well when someone is completely out of Stamina and in a position where they must defend.

http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?t=74141

I was also thinking that Quick transformations should be incorporated into the SAM bar, since the slow ones make you vulnerable. If you reach Tier 2 in the SAM bar, you can consume both bars to perform an instant transformation. It's like starting from scratch on the bar, except you're able to incorporate the transformation into the fight. This would be a better option against an equal or weaker opponent, where the higher tier transform would be for someone stronger than you.

EDIT: Stamina in this state would never regenerate either. I think after it wears off, it should immediately go down to the "No/Low Stamina" level to make you more vulnerable. So in other words, if you attempt to fight someone significantly stronger and you can't fight them on an equal SKILL level, then you'll essentially lose. If you fight someone significantly weaker with this transformation and you can't completely dominate them, then they'll have a shot at finishing you, you egotistical #!$@. :)
 
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sounds like a good idea, disguise. i do like the idea of having a set limit on how long you can stay in the form, but i wouldnt mind your idea at all.

I like the idea of limited SSJ3 time.

Anyway I'd say that those tier bonuses should be limited, but wouldn't have negative effects, like drop in defense.

SSJ bonuses could be:
Buu: All apsorbation forms, like Piccolo, Gohan and Gotenks.
Goku: SSJ3.
Gohan: SSJ, when he can't really transform yet (when he was in ROSAT and transformed for a sec, not sure if it was SSJ or SSJ2).
Frieza: 100% Frieza
Trunks: USSJ2
Vegeta: USSJ or Majin, when he can't transform into SSJ2 yet (if Majin, then after you became Majin, you can transform into Majin SSJ2).
Cell: Perfect form of Perfect Cell (when he revived after being blown up by Goku, had lightning).

Those shouldn't have any negative effects in strenght/def/speed (speed only reduced in USSJ form), but stamina and ki should drain much faster and you must manage to avoid it from draining completely, otherwise you end up with empty ki & stamina (unless you die because of empty stamina), rewersed from bonus form and descended to the basic form. If you're in air - you fall on ground and wait till you stand up and can recharge.

Those bonuses should only be available once per life or a delay should be added.
well, the transformations need negative effects or they are over-whelming and, therefore, unbalanced.

some characters are already perfect the way they are (like cell) which is why i didnt add them. goku's ssj3 is a stretch which is why i put majin in there.

as for buu, gotenks-buu was the only one that made sense since he actually did have a timelimit on how long trunks and goten fused. i thought it would be weird for there to be a "gohan-buu" since gohan is in the game and piccolo would've been unbalanced since the SBC is insane.
 
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C'mon Grega you're holding out on us. As long as light has not shined upon the community, regarding melee, there's gonna be more and more suggestions like this. Not that it's bad, but its bottomline generic.
 
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C'mon Grega you're holding out on us. As long as light has not shined upon the community, regarding melee, there's gonna be more and more suggestions like this. Not that it's bad, but its bottomline generic.
i dont see how its generic, really. explain?

and they'll probably update it soon. i made this suggestion for the aura tier, specifically.
 
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Didn't mean to be anal, but I and a few others proposed something like this a while ago. Don't bother searching the Archives, it really predates a bunch of suggestion threads.
 
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sounds like a good idea, disguise. i do like the idea of having a set limit on how long you can stay in the form, but i wouldnt mind your idea at all.
Thanks, Dark. I think having a limit that's determined by the combat will make it more intense and involved. It'll also make it more useful if it's used against a stronger opponent as opposed to a weaker one, which in itself makes it more balanced.

well, the transformations need negative effects or they are over-whelming and, therefore, unbalanced.

some characters are already perfect the way they are (like cell) which is why i didnt add them. goku's ssj3 is a stretch which is why i put majin in there.

as for buu, gotenks-buu was the only one that made sense since he actually did have a timelimit on how long trunks and goten fused. i thought it would be weird for there to be a "gohan-buu" since gohan is in the game and piccolo would've been unbalanced since the SBC is insane.
I was hoping that low stamina situations alone would be enough of a consequence to using this, on top of what could've been done otherwise with the SAM bar. It really depends if they want to embellish the idea of Attacker/Defender or not.

Yeah I think perma-trans characters shouldn't have this option available OR in order to transform they need the SAM bar filled all the way. Once they transform, it's permanent, and during transformation, they're invulnerable. It's only a one time deal anyway.

This would make it so permatrans would be seeking the strongest fighters in the game to fight so that they can have a chance at actually filling the bar and pushing their limits. If everyone is weak and they're the strongest, it'll take awhile of constant fighting, thus giving other players a chance to catch up. If they DO transform, it'll allow other players to fight them and then become increasingly stronger themselves. In an odd way, it would sort of follow DBZ storyline theory where the permatrans set the "I'm the strongest" pace, soon to be outmatched by the temporary SSJ transformation.
EX: Gohan SSJ2

C'mon Grega you're holding out on us. As long as light has not shined upon the community, regarding melee, there's gonna be more and more suggestions like this. Not that it's bad, but its bottomline generic.
I think generic is the wrong word for it. He means irrelevant, since we don't know how the ACTUAL 1.3 game play will work.

If they already have an entire combat system based on how transformations and the SAM bar will work, and they're completely opposed to what we suggested, then what we're talking about is irrelevant. If we had guidelines to go by and a better clue of how some things would work, then we could tailor our suggestions better and they become more useful.

But either way, brainstorming will never yield anything worse than what you had before, right?

EDIT: Btw, I like the way you think, Dark. A lot of people overlook balancing their suggestions with consequences, so it's really great to read about what you have to say.
 
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It's not irrelevant because Darkowns took the time to elaborate an idea he thought to be original. It's generic because it implies a bunch of stuff that, when added together, sums up to this.

I personally would love for something like this to be implemented, but the amount of models, additional transformations, animations and sound effects means adding a bunch of additional work to a mod that, IMO, is looking more amazing then it should have the right to.

Besides, adding models and stuff will be a breeze when 1.3 comes out...
(Grega pops out of nowhere and proves me otherwise)
 
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Thanks, Dark. I think having a limit that's determined by the combat will make it more intense and involved. It'll also make it more useful if it's used against a stronger opponent as opposed to a weaker one, which in itself makes it more balanced.

yeah it sounds good.

I was hoping that low stamina situations alone would be enough of a consequence to using this, on top of what could've been done otherwise with the SAM bar. It really depends if they want to embellish the idea of Attacker/Defender or not.

it probably is but each form did actually have advantages and disadvantages. for example, the ssj3 form used up so much ki that goku couldnt really use any ki attacks (theoretically of course, since it just makes sense). without a ki base, you lose your defense as well. which is how i figured the extra pro/cons.

Yeah I think perma-trans characters shouldn't have this option available OR in order to transform they need the SAM bar filled all the way. Once they transform, it's permanent, and during transformation, they're invulnerable. It's only a one time deal anyway.

couldnt agree more

This would make it so permatrans would be seeking the strongest fighters in the game to fight so that they can have a chance at actually filling the bar and pushing their limits. If everyone is weak and they're the strongest, it'll take awhile of constant fighting, thus giving other players a chance to catch up. If they DO transform, it'll allow other players to fight them and then become increasingly stronger themselves. In an odd way, it would sort of follow DBZ storyline theory where the permatrans set the "I'm the strongest" pace, soon to be outmatched by the temporary SSJ transformation.
EX: Gohan SSJ2



I think generic is the wrong word for it. He means irrelevant, since we don't know how the ACTUAL 1.3 game play will work.

you dont have to worry, i know enough to make a good suggestion.

If they already have an entire combat system based on how transformations and the SAM bar will work, and they're completely opposed to what we suggested, then what we're talking about is irrelevant. If we had guidelines to go by and a better clue of how some things would work, then we could tailor our suggestions better and they become more useful.

well, keep in mind that i am a beta tester, even if i'm incapable of really testing. i do have an idea of whats going on behind the scenes.

But either way, brainstorming will never yield anything worse than what you had before, right?

EDIT: Btw, I like the way you think, Dark. A lot of people overlook balancing their suggestions with consequences, so it's really great to read about what you have to say.
thanks. no one compliments me enough. which is why i strip on the weekends.

It's not irrelevant because Darkowns took the time to elaborate an idea he thought to be original. It's generic because it implies a bunch of stuff that, when added together, sums up to this.

im still kinda confused but i think your just using the wrong word. if it was generic it would have been done before. i myself have suggested something like this many times but that doesnt make it generic.

I personally would love for something like this to be implemented, but the amount of models, additional transformations, animations and sound effects means adding a bunch of additional work to a mod that, IMO, is looking more amazing then it should have the right to.

the suggestion really only adds on to what they are already doing. theres not much extra work to be done, since, 1. the transformations are gonna be very short 2. only buu has new attacks which means very little animations and 3. half the transformations are gonna be in. it's just a matter of changing them into a tier special

Besides, adding models and stuff will be a breeze when 1.3 comes out...
(Grega pops out of nowhere and proves me otherwise)
off-topic but im having a really hard time explaining things for some reason.
 
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If I were to be constructive I'd say the tier concept you got going on is not so different than reaching certain PL's. All in all it's just a way to give it a more formal structure.
But whatever it's not like I want to duke it out with a tester anyways :p
 
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It's not irrelevant because Darkowns took the time to elaborate an idea he thought to be original. It's generic because it implies a bunch of stuff that, when added together, sums up to this.
You should take your previous suggestions and bring them up in this thread so we can discuss them as we'd all be better off for it. I understand your want for recognition, as its something I think we all share.

Maybe our combined suggestions can add up to something that's elaborate and original, and not individually part of something that's "generic."
 
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My bad. I actually wasn't referring to Darkowns :p. Mixed up some names!

There's nothing to discuss by the way. If you're a new member then you would probably guess from the apparent lack of interest that these suggestions are very overlooked. I myself have no right to put down your intellectual ingenuity, but then again I feel I need to share my thoughts whenever it pleases me to do so.

Besides, as Grega said, the Devs probably have a whole outline of melee concepts already underway.

Don't be put down by these frank words though, a bunch of my ideas have been put down with hardly any interest in them.
 
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My bad. I actually wasn't referring to Darkowns :p. Mixed up some names!

There's nothing to discuss by the way. If you're a new member then you would probably guess from the apparent lack of interest that these suggestions are very overlooked. I myself have no right to put down your intellectual ingenuity, but then again I feel I need to share my thoughts whenever it pleases me to do so.

Besides, as Grega said, the Devs probably have a whole outline of melee concepts already underway.

Don't be put down by these frank words though, a bunch of my ideas have been put down with hardly any interest in them.
well, thats where being a beta tester comes in handy. if im particularly interested in an idea i can bring it up in a team meeting.
 
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I'd love it if gathering PL was super-hard and we needed to use those tier bonuses in order to survive. Once you reach the required PL and transform (normal transformation) - you own.

About SSJ3, IMO it should be the most awesome but a troublesome transformation in-game. It could add you an insane amount of PL and speed but your ki and stamina (yes, stamina, it should be required in order to keep you in SSJ3 form) drains insanely fast, plus the time limit in this form.

I don't really have much ideas (nor I care) about other classes' transformation specifics, but SSJ3 is the one. It's the most epic transformation in DBZ, isn't it?
 
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My bad. I actually wasn't referring to Darkowns :p. Mixed up some names!

There's nothing to discuss by the way. If you're a new member then you would probably guess from the apparent lack of interest that these suggestions are very overlooked. I myself have no right to put down your intellectual ingenuity, but then again I feel I need to share my thoughts whenever it pleases me to do so.

Besides, as Grega said, the Devs probably have a whole outline of melee concepts already underway.

Don't be put down by these frank words though, a bunch of my ideas have been put down with hardly any interest in them.
I tend to believe that what a person says as fact about others is better suited to themselves. Let me reiterate:

"[I have] nothing to discuss by the way. [I have] the apparent lack of interest that these suggestions are very overlooked.

I myself have no right to put down your intellectual ingenuity, but then again I feel I need to share my thoughts whenever it pleases me to do so."​

Good for you.

"You really must excuse how frank I am. I just have an opinion that speaks poorly of you and all that is not me, and you'd be less stupid to just accept it and move on."

That's all I've heard from you.

I know that Grega and Skiwan check these suggestions, and I think that their opinions matter, especially since they're part of the team. On top of that, I like sharing my enthusiasm with other people who like openly discussing these ideas, regardless of how they're used. I don't like listening to people put down something just because it's not their idea.

Don't judge everyone else's suggestions just because yours haven't amounted to anything.

That's all I have to say. Sorry for tainting your thread, Dark. If you have any more ideas, please keep posting.
 
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Jesus...you've really must of thought that through. The sheer fact that you have resorted to discuss semantics tells me your're trying to win a non-existent argument that you yourself somehow created because of your apparent lack of tolerance for criticism. There isn't anything to win, theres no point in trying to sound smart either.

I don't like Darkown's idea and your expanded version either.

That's it.
 

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