The Debate Regarding Using References From Others to Model- Please Read Everyone

[SoulStriker]

Im no modeller, but I figure I can still have an opinion in this matter:
I basically think that using an image of someone else's model as a reference, should be perfectly allowed unless the creator of the model has stated that they don't want this happening. Its a totally different thing if you look at a picture and build the model yourself, your still doing alot of work, and chances are people wont leave the model as a 100% copy, they would change things they dont like, plus its going to have a different skin, etc, etc...
As previously stated, if an author says no copies or whatever, then people should respect his wishes, otherwise, let them copy, its not going to be the same model.

 

[DiebytheSword]

Our initial response is to close these threads, but we actually want the modelling communities thoughts on this. Say your peice now, because you won't get the chance again.

 

[GMan]

If you want my opinion, I think it's completly crazy to give credits to someone's picture if you're going to be trying to make a model based on it. That's like saying everyone has to give credits to the animators for DBZ every time someone makes a model since they used a picture of one of their drawn characters for reference. Get real.

 

[fryd4good]

I personally believe that you don't need to give credit for using pictures of someone else's model for your own. You still do all the work on it. Just because their pictures give you the general shape doesn't mean that it's not your own model. It's a lot more complicated than just "connecting the dots." Especially when using a flat shaded pic. So that's what I think, and according to the vote, an overwhelming majority agrees with me.

 

[Smith]

I, being a 'nub' skinner think I should have a slight bit of opinion here. I don't think you should have to give credit for seeing a 2 dimensional picture of a model, it just is... stupid. Like many other people have said, if this is a rule then people should give credits for all the dbz characters.

-UltraPerfectCell

 

[ForeverZero]

In my opinion, these whole rules about credits are stupid. All they do is prevent the release of godly models to the ESF community, or slow them down. You people are not professional modellers, you are teenagers creating models for a game so that everyone can use them. By holding back improvements on your work, you just piss the rest of us off who think the improvement is much better than your original. If someone takes your work and makes it better, that is better for the ESF community, we love progess, we love better models for our game. If you'd like to keep this game boring and uneventful by banning people who take a lame model and make it great, then go ahead, but I for one will hate you guys for it and still hate you for the other great models you've snuffed out.

 

[grOOvy]

I've been away on vacation, so I know much of what has been happening. But after reading up on all of this, my opinion on this is that: it's all about permission. A lot of the forum users and some staff as well, seem to have forgotten about a certain rule that we have - which states that every model edit must have the original modellor's permission before releasing. Now the same can be applied for using someone else's model as reference. Now, you might as well just copy the model, using renders as reference... but that can only lead to flaming and discussions like the one we are having right now. Instead, why not just check with the original modellor if it's alright to use his model/renders as reference? This way, by stating that you have the permission, no moderator can dare to stop you on your tracks... we are all about legitemacy, and if you've got the permission - your doors to creativity are wide open!

We can debate about giving out front/back/side renders; we can debate about not using other models as reference; ...blah blah...

But why should we have the need to do this? You modellors on these forums should take up the initiative of simply asking the original modellor for permission EVEN IF IT IS NOT NEEDED before using his model as reference. The need for rules come when the users do something wrong repeatedly. Forum users: these are your forums - why not do things the right way instead of making such a situation come up?

To conclude, I think we should just let this pass for now, and see how many more modellors/editors use other people's models as reference without giving permission. And if this turns into an everyday routine - we can take action. Trust me, the moderators will have no problem enforcing certain rules - but you have the option of removing all this crap from the modelling section by taking the initiative yourself.

Period.

 

[ForeverZero]

Instead, why not just check with the original modellor if it's alright to use his model/renders as reference?

The problem is, since the modelling scene has become so frustrating, and with the advent of new mods on the horizon, many artists have disappeared off the face of the forum. It is sometimes impossible to contact these people, and you have their "friends" ranting on about how they never wanted their model edited/released/looked at.

 

[Nuttzy]

just the thought of any of you seeing any reason in getting permission or giving credits to what you LOOKED AT, gives me a headache


credits and permissions should stay how they are, in that they are only required when using an actual part of the model or skin,

looking at something to ensure you are making it right does not and should not justify anyones begging for credits

 

[fryd4good]

I'm completely in agreeance with nuttzy on this. Completely. Ha.

 

[Goten-son]

I personally believe that you don't need to give credit for using pictures of someone else's model for your own. You still do all the work on it. Just because their pictures give you the general shape doesn't mean that it's not your own model. It's a lot more complicated than just "connecting the dots." Especially when using a flat shaded pic. So that's what I think, and according to the vote, an overwhelming majority agrees with me.

yes i agree with this, also if someone made the "perfect" model of lets say Goten (DUH!) lol and someone else makes one thats like it why should we say rip right off the bat? come on their all trying their best to get these charectars as close as they can to real life sizes and if we are gonna do that don't you think a few models here and there will look almost exactly the same if the 2 modelers are very experienced? i think so

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

To tell u the truth all this creditz stuff is kind of ridiculous in jk2 no one gives credits or anything or takes credits for anything they just reskin and thats that. Here its like you will get a lawsuit for something. If you dont give credits. oh well forum rules though i still will follow them.

 

[Bolteh2]

The problem is, since the modelling scene has become so frustrating, and with the advent of new mods on the horizon, many artists have disappeared off the face of the forum. It is sometimes impossible to contact these people, and you have their "friends" ranting on about how they never wanted their model edited/released/looked at.

just a quick reply: modellers has left this scene because of cases likt this, atm we have maybe 1 real modeller (who does his work from scratch, all by himself, and thats nuttzy) who we ahd before? azn, vassago, ned, turk, smo, me (forgive me if i miss some1 for both cases)
so we just want to make sure that nomore modellers will have to leave because ppl cant resist ripping

btw im pro for the idea of asking permission in order to use references by other modelers

nother thing: screencaps from the show etc are way different than flat shaded renders, with screencaps you sitll have to build the mode, when u have front and side render (flat) you can easily put the vertexes in the same place as ur reference render

 

[CM]

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH S-BOLT--!!!

Finally, someone with a bit of common sense. And the way nuttzy's been replying, looks like he might leave too.

 

[Skiwan]

well i dont know what the problem is, its a little hypocritical to say that you cant use 1 sort of picture as a ref to another, at the end of the day it will help them learn to do it without model ref pics, If you think that u should give credits to who made the ref pic, then u should also give credits to the person who drew the ref pics, ive drawn ref pics for people before, and i dont care if they dont give credit for that, its aiding them in becoming better. You all seem to want better modelers on these forums but nobody wants to help out they'd rather keep all the experience you've learned a secret and let people model in ignorance, which is fine, but dont complain about there being no good original modelers. Evrybody seems to be happy to b*tch and moan about how nobody trys from scratch when if they try to learn you put them down rather than give useful critism or dispute what they used as a ref.

I think if people dont want there models to be used as a ref then they should post it on or with the pic of their model...... really its up to them

 

[Majin_You]

In essence, there isn't really going to be a new rule, the permissions rule already covers this sort of case, since it deals with all aspects of a person's model. In all honesty, it's not much more to ask the person for permission to create a "chip off the old block", the only difference is that you won't be downloading their model and editing it directly. In either way, you are working with a previous model to create a new one. Nothing is wrong with that, it's like in music, when people take classic songs, add transitions, interludes, etc., and create a new piece that is a montage of traditional ones - that is a respected, and credited practice known as Arranging. But, the matter of fact is that, either way you approach editing, you are still referencing a model and working off of it to create something new/different, the only difference is that your approach to that is different. Bear in mind that the permissions rule states that credits are necessary for posting your work, and that permission is required to release the model. It's in the rules sticky, just for reference.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Well, this is just like saying, I used the Mona Lisa as a reference to paint the Mona Suzy but I didn't trace so gimmee urrr munneeeeee!!!

The fact that you used someone elses hard work as a template to create your own should not wave the fact that you should give credit where it is due.

I mean, you're still copying someone elses work, you aren't coming up with this off the top of your head. You had to use someone elses render to get a grasp of what a model is supposed to look like, yet you feel you should not have to give credit.

The permission is a bit more of a touchy subject. If author's do not want their renders copied, they shouldn't post them.

I clearly understand the credit thing and I support it, however the permission thing might be pushing the limits of common sense. I mean, why should someone have to ask permission to look at a picture, and try to recreate it. If credit is given, I don't understand why the permission factor needs to be present. Looking at a render is a lot different than actual model manipulation or re-skinning, which are two examples which should always have permission IMO.

Well, my little shpiel is over

 

[ForeverZero]

I agree, completely. Giving credit where credit is due is one thing. Fine, respect the original modeller and mention that it was his work originally. But in NO WAY should that guy have the right to restrict your posting or releasing that model. If someone wants to improve upon your model, isn't that their own decision for the better of the community? They ripped your work, but they gave you credit. What more do you want? What gives you the right to prevent it from getting released when money isn't even involved? All you're doing is letting your jealousy ruin the random downloader's fun, plain and simple.

 

[Devion]

u know vis is just like esf community v thread using smos pic wasnt v first. vere was a thread a captin ginu while ago and vey used a ref pic of a bfp model but naturly cuz it was bf p no one cared and vere was a brolly model ripped by brollman (i tink it was brollman) brolly from dmz SUPRISE! no one cared! (vere were 2 or 3 posts bout it but no one rreally meantioned it)see what i mean?esf is a very self centered community and vats whats causing problems!

Amen to that. So what if they use a ref to model your own make your model.

Like if other modelers(like smo, nuttzy(just a example)) when they began modeling did everything legal.(I just said smo and nuttzy cause they are pro =/)

I agree a modeler with more experince should get his own ref but beginners should be able to use everything as ref and don`t have to wait 10 days for reply to get permission.

I say let beginners use the refs they need overtime they won`t need them anymore.

And when they make a model(when there good modelers) other modelers(beginners) can use there models as refs.

The only that is a must is giving credit to the modeler of your ref.

 

[SailorAlea]

Personally, I don't really see where all this hostility comes from. Yes, you make a model, and yes you invest a lot of time in it. By some people here are just so anal, about their fellow modellers.

Someone wanted credit because a person looked at their model as a reference? "Oh, so that's what he looks like. I'll create my own model, from-scratch, from that."

I don't believe any credit is required, because I don't see the original modellers putting down,

"Referance Pictures--DragonBallZ®, Toei Animation, FUNimation Animation Studios" etc.

You don't even own your own model, it's actually illegal to make one and call it 'Goku' (or whatever the name is,) and as such.. It is hypocritical in nature to criticize someone for doing exactly what you did.

All that person did was look at your model, as a reference. Did they copy a single bit of the file? No. They looked at it. No credit is necessary. Even in English papers in University, you don't cite it. If the professor desires, you can list a "Works Consulted" page, along with the "Works Cited" page, but most professors don't require one.

Not that anyone cares what my opinion is.. But there it is.

P.S.: F.Zero has a point, that people's nitpicking and jealousy hinder our choice of Models. Yes, there are rules, and they should be followed.. but you don't have to be an ass about it.