The Debate Regarding Using References From Others to Model- Please Read Everyone

Do I Have a Point or What?

  • Yes! You're Absolutely right!

    Votes: 21 72.4%
  • No! You're Horribly Wrong!

    Votes: 3 10.3%
  • What You Say Hold's Some Depth.......

    Votes: 5 17.2%

  • Total voters
    29
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Okay, now let me get this straight. Now the way I see this, anyone who posts their FLAT-shaded render is to blame, I mean **** man, think about it for a second and any smart person can face the facts. Do you see anybody posting their skinmaps in here and saying "Hey! How's this look???" NO, because that is blatantly STUPID. Unless you feel like giving your work away or giving someone a nice idea on how to place certain colors and the like, then feel free to post away. However, during a certain conundrum that has caused a fluster of flaming in this forum as of lately, it seems no one can grasp this common, albeit simple concept. If I were a *certain someone* I would be a little more flattered than insulted that someone could go by my model as a reference, considering how the entire forum ALREADY KNOWS who made the model first, and better, at that. And to go as rediculously asenine as to say that you'll credit artists who drew the pics that the original modeler used to make HIS model?.....WTF? My head hurts just reading that sentence. Well that's all I gotta say on this subject, and I find it to be quite Model-related, so I post it here. Feel free to post your thoughts on this enygma. Am I right, Or am I right?
 
The Viking
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Agrees. Allthough there are many things i could say, you allready covered everything up. Some people need to grow up.

Cold Steel
 

Bolteh2

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if we allow this kind of cloning (wich it is) than we might as well remove the "no ripping" rule...

cuz if i rip neds vegetto, and post it here, and ppl flame me because i ripped his model, than they are wrong because i didnt rip it, i cloned it
 
The Sinister Minister
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Please, don't publicly debate these kinds of things. If you have a problem, PM an admin. These will, in all honesty, open the floor to flaming. It's happened all too often.
 
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well if you built it yourself then itd be different, i see no difference in looking at a reference picture from the series or of another model, as long as you still build the model yourself from scratch its not ripping, having pictures to help you with proportions has never been against any rule,
the only reason you bolt ever stepped into this argument is cuz your friend smo (who by the way is the only person ever to complain about this) probabaly told you to,

you can say it all you want but its extremely obvious that your paying more attention to your friendship with smo than your responsibilities as a moderator,
 
The Sinister Minister
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nuttzy said:
you can say it all you want but its extremely obvious that your paying more attention to your friendship with smo than your responsibilities as a moderator,
Another thing that could have been accomplished through a PM to an admin. Please, if you must have this thread, DO NOT point fingers at anyone, PM admins for moderator related issues, suggestions on rules, and ANYTHING that involves running the forum.

And don't debate the point of Smo any more, he's on a 2-week vacation.
 
Moving with Sonic Speed
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S-Bolt-- has a point, though I can't completely agree with him. I don't believe it should be made a rule that you cannot rebuild someone else's work from scratch and and present it, but I do believe that it should be made a rule that you must both:

A.) Post at least one picture of the model on its way to completion along with the completed model

B.) Give credit to the original model and its developer in the event that you attempt to copy it pixel by pixel
 

Bolteh2

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nuttzy, me and smo get along quite good, but i also said that smo should be banned and that he shouldnt act like that, so dont come here and say stuff where you have 0% knowledge of (unless you can hack moderator forum and channel on irc)

you make nice models and you make them publicly as basemodel, so u dont care if ppl use ur model, but most modellers do think its ****ed up when ppl rip their models etc, or using it without giving credits
 
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Sonic Boyster said:
S-Bolt-- has a point, though I can't completely agree with him. I don't believe it should be made a rule that you cannot rebuild someone else's work from scratch and and present it, but I do believe that it should be made a rule that you must both:

A.) Post at least one picture of the model on its way to completion along with the completed model

B.) Give credit to the original model and its developer in the event that you attempt to copy it pixel by pixel

Yes I can see where you guys come from, Sonic. But this is where I said before, does anyone go posting their skinmaps all over the place? The responsibility lies in both directions, not just one. That's just the point I'm trying to get across, I don't mean in any way to point any fingers, just to make people wary of that fact. I mean really.....someone leaves their car door unlocked with the keys above the visor, tempting? Yes. It may take someone with a little balls or someone who's a little more ignorant than the rest to take the chance. But is it entirely that car-jacker's fault? Or is the person Stupid enough to leave his stuff lying around totally exposed to blame? As you can see there is too sides......we need to establish the balance.
 

Bolteh2

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wlel, if you cant show renders of ur model cuz ppl may rip it
or you cant release a model, cuz ppl may rip it

than why make a model at all?
 
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Bryggz said:
Yes I can see where you guys come from, Sonic. But this is where I said before, does anyone go posting their skinmaps all over the place? The responsibility lies in both directions, not just one. That's just the point I'm trying to get across, I don't mean in any way to point any fingers, just to make people wary of that fact. I mean really.....someone leaves their car door unlocked with the keys above the visor, tempting? Yes. It may take someone with a little balls or someone who's a little more ignorant than the rest to take the chance. But is it entirely that car-jacker's fault? Or is the person Stupid enough to leave his stuff lying around totally exposed to blame? As you can see there is too sides......we need to establish the balance.
If you concern is that there is nothing being done about this, be assured that the ideas of what to do about a case like this in the future have already been tossed around for a day or two. It's very difficult to find middleground in a case like this, but if you are curious as to what is being done, we are doing exactly that - trying to find the middleground in the even that such a case happens again.
 
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Because you do it for the PEOPLE WHO WANT IT, not for some ego-trip to fame and glory all over the forums, I mean damn, I don't see the modelers for Unreal 2 going, GIVE ME PRAISE! (I know, it has no relevance to what we're saying, considering no one uses their models, but it's just for my point.) They do it so the people have one awesome piece of work to enjoy. I mean that's why I made my gotenks pack...people wanted him....so i collaberated......even if the model wasn't so good. (The only thing I wanted was a counter :p) Isn't that the reason why models are requested? For enjoyment? What's all this grief?
 

Bolteh2

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yeah, but if you release the model for ppl to enjoy it, than some1 can steal it eh, and if you dont want that, than you shouldt make models, this is what you say
 
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sadly im starting to agree with some of what s bolt is saying,

i still disagree with having to provide credits for what you LOOKEd AT to make the model, but all else s bolt speaks is like its coming right out of my mouth,


ill summarize my view of this,

we should just go back to like it was before this, "rollback" if you will, credits should only be given when actual parts of the model, (body parts, skins from another model) are used on your model, but looking at a model to ensure you are building yours correctly hardly justifies giving credit to the reference picture
 
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Wait, are we complaining about people using renders to copy models? If that's all we're concerned with then I don't see why it should be made any kind of a rule to *have* to give credit to the one that inspired you (unless you also borrowed his skin). It's impossible to copy someone's model "pixel for pixel" by looking at a rendered picture of it, you can only hope to come close by putting some serious effort into it. It is not the same as tracing someone's drawing and calling it yours, nor is it the same as ripping someone's model. Following that logic two people using the same reference picture and ending up with similar hair would have ripped from each other to get there.

If we are just talking about renders and not actually opening up models in 3d model viewing programs and taking a deep documentation of the coordinates of every pixel then I don't see why there is even an argument.

If you DO open it up and take deep documentation on every pixel to faithfully reproduce it then you should at least provide credits for reference if nothing else, but I don't see how it's stealing just to get a good look at something and make it over again.
 

Bolteh2

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well sonic, it is possible to recreate a model 100% the same as the original from flat shaded renders (if the render provide front, side, back) since its very obvious where the vertexes are, and when u got the vertexes, well yeah, lets say conencting them is easy :D
 
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well i agree with this, u never will get that perfection a model as by copying it poly by poly. my advice for ppl who dont want their models copied:

post just some poses even of the flat, its easy to crit and hard to copy (think so).

hope i could help

-Goku SSJ-
 
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Or, when posting flats just say "COPYING THIS IS FORBIDDEN", or something like this. Then you can see what the author wants. If he doesn't care, and nothing like this is in there, well, fun for the ones using the flats as reference. If this is in there, and it is obvious someone "ripped" from the pictures (Ripped because it was forbidden to use as base) this could then be dealt with by the mods, cause by the simple line "IT'S FORBIDDEN TO...." you have a reason for dealing with him. Otherwise we will keep on floating on the grey yards between if it is allowed to do this or not.
 
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It's intriguing to me how it was just said not to debate this publicly, yet the debate is continuing. So can we or can we not debate this? Because I could have some fun here.
 
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Well we didn't close it for a reason. Say what you want just don't flame each other
 

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