Take THAT Music Industry!

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Well OP, at least you take pride in something, even if it is, you know, literally stealing money out of other people's pocket. Didn't except an all-important and morally sound moderator such as yourself to be so selfish, and I can't really be bothered to argue about it. Like SPIDER-BITE said, you're probably one of those people who thinks it's your divine right to pirate music so no matter what I say or how I say it, you wouldn't care.
 
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its not really selfish o_O
on the other hand, i agree wholeheartedly with the points about how much hard work goes into music making etc, then someone that buys the cd just rips the music, and leaves it in their "My Shared Folder" or whatever for other people to leech it. BUT. The musicians are also to blame. It would seem, that all we ever hear is RIAA this and RIAA that and RIAA ****ed us over again. We dont hear "Linkin Park sue for their music being found on P2P" etc. The musicians themselves also need to try and do something about it, and not rely on RIAA. I aint gonna lie, i download mp3s on P2P. My mp3 player is hungry, and i dont have money to just buy CDs, rip their music, and stick on my mp3 player, then throw the disc away. I mean, who can honestly say they dont download music when they have an mp3 player filled with like 4GB + of music? Also i know theres some dumbasses that go and buy some ****ty 40gb ipod when they have like 10 albums or some ****, and refuse to give in to the temptation of downloading music via P2P or Torrents or w/e. I think ive only ever bought 2 cds in my life, Gorillaz first album, and some Spice Girls single. (that **** rocked back then man :p )
 
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It's become a common thing, so nobody really cares for it anymore. Yeh, you're 'stealing' their money, but when bands/singers help prevent piracy they pretty much say "stop downloading and buy more cd's so we can make more money". It's not like the music industry has crashed, fans will usually buy their cd's anyway. Sure, they've worked hard for it, but I always thought you make music for your enjoyment, pleasure and fun and if you wan't to share it with others, you can do it for free. Of course they need to make a living out of it if they can, but some have become millionairs out of it and got greedy. Those are usually the ones that are against piracy and the likes.
 
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lol, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

the top guys in the "industry" that they im hurting still live a hell of alot better than i ever will >_>. let them have a headache every now and then.

it really only hurts the band if downloading the song stopped you from buying the album, i BUY all the albums that i like. i download the songs if i dont care enough for the band to purchase the album.

recordable tape decks and the radio have been around for ages and nothing has slowed them down. i dont predict anything bad happeneing anytime soon.
 
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Most of the music i listen to support the mp3 revolution. Infact NOFX wrote "dinosaurs must die" because of it, basically saying if people cant earn ****loads of cash by dancing around and mimming to it, it wont happen anymore, and therefore only the bands who create music for a passion, out of devotion will create music, which to me doesnt sound like a bad idea. heh, NOFX are internationally known, however 3 of the band members still have part time jobs, one of them owns a record company though :p.

dinosaurs will die lyrics:
"Dinosaurs Will Die"

Kick back watch it crumble
See the drowning, watch the fall
I feel just terrible about it
That's sarcasm, let it burn

I'm gonna make a toast when it falls apart
I'm gonna raise my glass above my heart
Then someone shouts "That's what they get!"

For all the years of hit and run
For all the piss broke bands on VH1
Where did all, their money go?
Don't we all know

Parasitic music industry
As it destroys itself
We'll show them how it's supposed to be


Music written from devotion
Not ambition, not for fame
Zero people are exploited
There are no tricks, up our sleeve

Gonna fight against the mass appeal
We're gonna kill the 7 record deal
Make records that have more than one good song
The dinosaurs will slowly die
And I do believe no one will cry
I'm just ****ing glad I'm gonna be
There to watch the fall

Prehistoric music industry
Three feet in la brea tar
Extinction never felt so good

If you think anyone would feel badly
You are sadly, mistaken
The time has come for evolution
**** collusion, kill the five

Whatever happened to the handshake?
Whatever happened to deals no-one would break?
What happened to integrity?
It's still there it always was
For playing music just because
A million reason why
dinosaurs will die
dinosaurs will die
dinosaurs will die
 
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Half-Unit said:
Like SPIDER-BITE said, you're probably one of those people who thinks it's your divine right to pirate music
You couldn't be more wrong. But if you want to argue my ethics, take it to a PM, because honestly, I really don't care what you think about my downloading habits.

Besides, I'm selfish? What about lazy artists who aren't even in it for the music anymore, and put out half-assed CD's with one good song on them. I'm not going to pay $20 for one song.
 
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So you're saying you know you don't have the right to download music yet you still do it? Oh, well, that makes it all better. Sorry I questioned your ethics. Didn't need a PM for that.

How is stealing music NOT selfish? You don't care about the people you're hurting, and your only concern is what YOU want when you download. I don't mean to break it to you people, but that's the DEFINITION of selfish! It's not selfish of the artist wanting to get paid for his/her work. It's ridiculous to think that way.

And it's somewhat ignorant if you think you're only hurting the artist. You're hurting the studio, the music shop that you deiced to circumvent, and the ultimately economy.

"yeah right. like my downloading is affecting the economy."

4 billion dollars a year is lost due to piracy. According to that RIAA site the music industry is a 40 billion dollar market. That's 10% of someone's business down the toilet.

Like I said, I don't expect anyone to up and stop downloading music. All I ask is that you at least know what you're doing and who you're screwing in the long run, so that later on you don't cry about whatever the future holds for music.
 
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OptiPrime is right. Nelly is a prime example. Same with Ja Rule. When they have spent all the money they earnt on their last album, they get greedy, and want more, so they make 2 good singles out of 13 new songs or whatever, and stick it on their album and hope it sells. I aint gonna lie, Gorillaz is one of my favourite bands, but Feel Good Inc. is the only awesome song on their new album; everything else ****in pisses me off

As for you Half Unit, i dont like you. At all. The musicians need to sort themselves out, this RIAA **** cant touch me, they dont make the records, the musicians do. The bands/musicians, want money and respect and to try and be known. The only thing affecting them with downloading mp3s and what not is their loss of money.
 
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Im not spending 10 € , for an Cd where i only liek 1 Song. Thats for sure.
Any many Artists can easily afford it not to sell some CDs. Look what they do, just watch MTV Gribs or E! there you see where youre Money goes.
BUT if there is really an Album where i like then i buy it ofcourse.

And i also Copy mine CDs cause im not laying the Original one in my Car. And i dont wanna run up or down to my Car in the Middle of the Night to Grab my MP3.

So i DLing when i like some Songs and i copy them as MP3 for my Car and Home use. I bet you even Artists do this with other Aritists Music =O, cause they dotn wanna go out in the middle in the Night and open the Hummers Heavy Doors and get the CD out ^.^
 
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Half-Unit said:
So you're saying you know you don't have the right to download music yet you still do it? Oh, well, that makes it all better. Sorry I questioned your ethics. Didn't need a PM for that.

How is stealing music NOT selfish? You don't care about the people you're hurting, and your only concern is what YOU want when you download. I don't mean to break it to you people, but that's the DEFINITION of selfish! It's not selfish of the artist wanting to get paid for his/her work. It's ridiculous to think that way.

And it's somewhat ignorant if you think you're only hurting the artist. You're hurting the studio, the music shop that you deiced to circumvent, and the ultimately economy.

"yeah right. like my downloading is affecting the economy."

4 billion dollars a year is lost due to piracy. According to that RIAA site the music industry is a 40 billion dollar market. That's 10% of someone's business down the toilet.

Like I said, I don't expect anyone to up and stop downloading music. All I ask is that you at least know what you're doing and who you're screwing in the long run, so that later on you don't cry about whatever the future holds for music.
Yes, but you see, you generalized me into the crowd of "Whatever, my downloading doesn't hurt anyone, **** everyone, I'm gonna download music anyways."

You made assumptions about me, all of which are false. The only correct assumption you made, is that I just don't care.

And that 10% of business down the toilet stat is just crap. Because that stat generalizes for the whole music industry.

It's more like a 1/4 of a percent here, 1/10 of a percent there. It's not like every single artist is losing out on 4 bazillion dollars.
 
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Hmm. I could have sworn that I heard CD sales have actually gone up since the induction of P2P filesharing. I'll be searching to see if I can find that, it might have just been a rumor to justify it.

However, using the RIAA as a source for information on piracy is like using the Focus On The Family site for information on homosexuals. There is an agenda there and therefore they may skew the facts a bit for their own ends.
 
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just like Michael Moore XD the guy you americans hate so much lol

anywho,
And it's somewhat ignorant if you think you're only hurting the artist. You're hurting the studio, the music shop that you deiced to circumvent, and the ultimately economy.
The economy? What about the economy of LEDCs? If youre going to say stuff like that, the economy decreasing in the USA by P2P networks, will be incredibly miniscule right? So why are you bringing the economy into this o_O. If anything, the economy booms. More mp3 availability = more money for Apple, Creative, Sony and all other makers of MP3 players. So i reckon the money factor stays the same, just the Recording Studios, the multimedia shops and of course the artists miss out, not in publicity, but in money making :/
 
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http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf

This study says that it has a very miniscule effect on record sales. I'm not saying that the RIAA one is right or that this one is right, but for every study that says it hurts the music industry there is another that says it barely hurts it.
 
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Mad_AxMan said:
actually, the law says your not even allowed to play that cd at an audable volume of > 10db while there are >= 16 people present, as you are then making a broadcast.
US law? Or whacky European law?

Link to proof of your claim would be helpful for future reference.
 
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I download music all the time, and if it's worth the money, I'll buy it. Not to support the artist, but as a sign of respect. Same goes with games, and DVD's. I like to actually "own" my things. For me, there's nothing better than opening my entertainment center and seeing the tower of DVD's facing me.

Still though, I'm totally for P2P sharing. Downloading MP3's aren't going to hurt musicians, they probably help more than they hurt. Any small time band should be thankful for all the recognition they can get through P2P sharing, it used to be a full time job to go around posting flyers, handing out/selling CD's on the street or at other crowded areas (i still see a lot of this today). If somebody puts your music up for download, they can get your music to fans a lot more efficiently and faster than ever before. It's a huge opportunity to get your music around to your neighbors, people in different states, or people in different countries. You could never acheive that any other way starting out as a small band.

If that band does get popular and a record label approaches them, they'll get a contract. They're already going to get paid at this point, so downloading mp3's isn't going to harm them. Regardless, most people are like me, and they will buy CD's if they're worth it. It's the best way to find out whether the product is crap (like most CD's) or if the CD's have more than one or two good songs on it. I'm sure there are ways for bands to lose some money, but there's much more to gain than lose. Plus it's a great way to try out the product, instead of buying it and finding out that only 2 out of the 15 songs you paid 15 dollars for are worth a dime.
 
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There is no real impartial data on this subject yet.. But considering album sales didn't go down when Napster/Kazaa were at their height, and in fact continued to grow, I'd guess that the theory some people have is correct: That the people who download large amounts of music are downloading music they wouldn't have paid for anyway--your work is being stolen but you're not losing money you would have gotten.

I'd agree with that statement. Like Phatslugga--I do download (not music in my case, games)--quite a lot. I've downloaded many. But I do it to try them out. If I download a game that I really like--I'll go out and buy it. (Like I did with UT2k4, VtM:Bloodlines, several others). A lot of times I'll try a game and it'll be really crappy, I'll delete it and never think of it again. Is it technically wrong? I guess. But did 'my piracy' make the company lose money? Not a chance--I wouldn't have bothered giving it a CHANCE without it. So in some cases, my piracy actually made the company money.

Of course, there's always greedy bastages who download dozens of movies and games that they used to would've been forced to pay for, keep them and enjoy them, spread them around, etc..

In summary.. Piracy is wrong, but the MPAA/RIAA have targetted it for the wrong reason. It's a lot harder to illegally download music nowadays--especially if you're not computer savvy. But their record sales are dropping NOW that music piracy isn't as rampant as say 2 years ago. I don't think it's had that much of an impact on the music/movie industry. And the game industry? As most of you probably know, Halo 2 sold more in it's opening weekend than any game or movie in history--despite all those reports of the french version of the game getting out and being pirated.

Besides--the real money to be made in games is from things with online fees like MMORPGs or X-Box live, and you need subscription codes for those--very difficult to 'pirate' those kind of games.
 
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I'll will give you guys some economic theory I just learned at my unvirsity. The course was called Internet Economics. It was really interesting because it covered exactly that subject. Now the general idea was the idea of Network Externalities. Network externalities means that you get more out of a good if more people buy it. No one would have a phone if they are the only one...The idea with software piracy was build on a general idea that protection was possible (too costly to remove). And that some people like the service supplied by the producer and some people don't. The outcome was that through network externalities it might be better for the companies to not put protection on the software (goes the same for music) becuase when a lot of people pirate the software, they get an installed base leading to the fact that consumers would pay more for the program because so many people use it. Look at Microsoft Windows for example all the people pirating it caused people to know the program and then the companies start buying it and paying a lot of money for it. Without this piracy the program might not have become this famous and it might have caused Bill Gates to be the poorest man on this world.

Believing in this idea, and the fact that it might be at least partly true, i think the computer/music industry whines to much. Album sales of 2004 were the highest ever (single sales got lower though) so it is not so bad in the music industry. For software, there is this piracy study which said it would yearly cost this industry about 13 billion in damage, calculation was people with the software installed minus people who bought the software equals damage, in this theory of internet economics this just doesnt cut it and is misleading.

If it is all a little blurry I can understand, I have a hangover while typing this so...

But just keep the general idea, everything those industries say is highly exagerated (don't know how you spell it)...
 
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LaMM said:
I'll will give you guys some economic theory I just learned at my unvirsity. The course was called Internet Economics. It was really interesting because it covered exactly that subject. Now the general idea was the idea of Network Externalities. Network externalities means that you get more out of a good if more people buy it. No one would have a phone if they are the only one...The idea with software piracy was build on a general idea that protection was possible (too costly to remove). And that some people like the service supplied by the producer and some people don't. The outcome was that through network externalities it might be better for the companies to not put protection on the software (goes the same for music) becuase when a lot of people pirate the software, they get an installed base leading to the fact that consumers would pay more for the program because so many people use it. Look at Microsoft Windows for example all the people pirating it caused people to know the program and then the companies start buying it and paying a lot of money for it. Without this piracy the program might not have become this famous and it might have caused Bill Gates to be the poorest man on this world.

Believing in this idea, and the fact that it might be at least partly true, i think the computer/music industry whines to much. Album sales of 2004 were the highest ever (single sales got lower though) so it is not so bad in the music industry. For software, there is this piracy study which said it would yearly cost this industry about 13 billion in damage, calculation was people with the software installed minus people who bought the software equals damage, in this theory of internet economics this just doesnt cut it and is misleading.

If it is all a little blurry I can understand, I have a hangover while typing this so...

But just keep the general idea, everything those industries say is highly exagerated (don't know how you spell it)...
Windows got so big because it is shipped with new computers, not so much by piracy. The MS office series might have gotten bigger because people used a pirated version at home and then demanded to use it at work as well. However the principle you described is not gonna work for music, because there isn't any force to stop pirating there. Why buying it when you hear a pirated version, when it costs less effort to just copy it?
 
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I do not agree. Album sales went up last year like i said. There are a lot of people who value having the CD. The booklet nice graphics whatever. Or they still think it is to hard to download the stuff...That is the entire point of the principle i was trying to explain, some people would buy it even though it is easy to copy as long as the price is low enough. They will do this because it gives them value (utility in economic terms). Other people will pirate the software or music because they do not get any value from having a legal version. Like said in some post above here, you first download the music and if you like it you buy it that is precisely the idea of my principle. Without the piracy this person might have never heard of this music and would have never bought the product.

For more info Read a book by Oz Shy called the Economics of Network Industries (quite hard though)
 
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It's funny how the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) have slowly 'taken over'. I remember when they were a small viglante-like group taking on (and beating) Napster, and now they have more power than the artists themselves.
Speaking as someone with a lot of direct education on this subject, I'd just like to point out that, if you think the artist ever had the power in the music industry, you are very much 110% mistaken.

In college we re-enacted a meeting for a record contract. It's not at all like the movies; the musician usually isn't even there. It's lawyers, usually working for a musician's management on behalf of the musician, lying through their teeth trying to haggle the record company to higher advances.

This is the way record companies work:

1.) You get a contract. You're going to make an album under a given record label.
2.) They give you something called an advance; basically, they give you a ton of money up front to make the album and it is yours or your peoples' responsibility to translate that money into a sellable album product. Obviously bigger, well-known artists get bigger budgets.
3.) At this juncture is where the facets of the record deal come in. An example I'll give is a meeting my teacher at college was actually a part of, involving Black Eyed Peas. Apparently the record company wanted to push Fergie: the conditions of their advance was that Fergie's vocals be the focus of the album and she be sort of "the posterchild" for Black Eyed Peas the way that Gwen Stefani is way bigger than No Doubt. Fergie is marketable; the others, not so much. The band's people didn't want to do this, and they weren't given the deal full force; the record company didn't push them much at all. The compromise was that they would do a lot of club track remixes and push that direction instead.

4.) The Advance money is yours to do with as you please as long as the album gets made and record company's basic requests of the contract are met (which are different and vary widely for every artist--they might tell you where to record it, they might ask you for a specific number of tracks, or they might ask you to--as shown above--push the marketable piece of ass, but there are literally hundreds of possible requests they can make). You can actually do whatever you want with this money, but it must eventually be paid back to the Record Label via your work's profits. Take note of this: when you see a song on the radio or MTV or whatever, and the band drops off the face of the earth...it's almost always because they've lost the financial backing of the Record Label after bad turnaround on their primary advances.

Most people seem to think that musicians get a paycheck from the Record Label (and thus, 'aren't hurting anyone' by downloading). This actually isn't true, because of the Advances.

Say you are given $25,000 bucks by Elektra Records to make your album. They want space for two singles (meaning two radio-friendly songs), they want your big underground hit on there too, and want you to record at a specific studio (to protect their asses, costwise, usually your first deal is made specific to a reputable studio under the label's wing). That $25,000 dollars they give you is to make the album, it's not a payoff. And you have to return that money to the Record Label at some point.

Okay, so you're albums' made, it's out selling in the stores. Not getting enough of a push. Record Label advances you a little more money to make a video, bringing the total to $30,000 (btw, these numbers are absurdly lower than the real ones, for the sake of argument...they are usually in the hundreds of thousands). Now your record is pushed, your video is out, and the money is rolling in, right?! WRONG.

The advance money is the first thing to be paid for. When your record gets bought, ALL OF THAT MONEY goes directly to the label first, to repay your expenses. The musician isn't even a part of the equation until AFTER the advance is repayed in full. If you are lucky and your album EXCEEDS that amount, then the record company begins to take the cut agreed upon in the contracts and such, and you get (usually for a first deal) 10% (lesser acts) to 15% (big acts or 'easy money') minus expenses.

The money doesn't even go to the musician; it goes to the label, and a small percentage of that goes to the musician--and only AFTER the Advance has been repaid. If it keeps selling and the Label makes back their advance, and sales continue to roll and your album makes some profits, that money gets filtered through the label too. 80-85% of the money is the label's; the rest is usually yours. But then you have to cover certain expenses, like as if you worked in an office and had to pay for your own computer.

"Oh, my band has no expenses." Yes, you will, if you have a label. You will have to also use some of the advance money to tour or promote yourself; as mentioned, they may contract you for a video (though that's unlikely right off the bat, unless you already have a hit song). They will force you to have management--it's a basic facet of a record label's contract. They can't be wasting their time with dreamy uneducated musicians; they need to have a go-between who knows the score. Because of this fact you will often get a manager appointed by the label and the manager seldom has your best interests in mind, only the album's profit margin. Management takes 15% of YOUR 10% of the total profits, usually; this is why managers often have several clients at a time.

The label could also make you get a producer for your album, another extraneous expense. Then there is equipment, booking, road crews, promotions, distribution, etc. All of these things come out of the artist's cut--which is already disgustingly small. But the industry is built this way so as to keep the Record Labels rich enough to keep funding new albums with millions of throw-away dollars.

So I just wanted to give you all this info about how the music industry works because a lot of people think they aren't hurting the artist, but really they are. Only the HUGE artists are completely financially secure despite the downloading. Sales may not seem to waver much, but that is a huge difference to the artist--who is in fact the very last person to get any of the money whatsoever, and a pathetically low percentage at that. Hell, most artists don't even get paid at all until about 6 months after their album hits the store shelves. And even then, your percentage gets diced up to pay for all those 'extraneous expenses' such as studio time, single edits for the radio, management, touring, etc. You the artist do not see a god damned DIME until everyone else and their mother has obtained their cut, period.

The record industry really sucks, as far as being thankful to the artists who make it work. Downloading doesn't help this at all, either.

Imagine how much harder it must be to pass the 'break even' point in returning the advance when you're a new artist and all you have is a single...that everyone's downloading and not buying your album...and because of that your record label deems you as too much of a high risk investment and decides to terminate your contract (which they can do anytime while you have no say in the matter and couldn't quit if you wanted to--which was the case with Megadeth on Capitol Records recently. It's a standard record contract clause). Bottom line is, the people already rich from the music industry aren't going to suddenly get poor...but the ones starting out are being completely paralyzed, and that is making the industry go stagnant--and THAT is where money is lost, not by the artists who've already made millions, but by the labels who can't successfully push new talent. It is slowly becoming more cost-efficient to just ignore new acts and wait for them to independently gain some lucky radio hit, and then snatch them up and milk the single rights for all it's worth. Either way the person you hurt the most are actually those newly signed garage bands, the ones who could've been the next whoever, as long as they have the right support. Downloading their song will break them, easily. A good example of this would be...hmm...any current rock single on the radio, actually. Like the Killers, for example. You will NEVER see a second Killers album, and if you did, it's only because they were given a three-disc deal and hadn't blown all of their advance completely out the window yet.

For the above reasons, many young new artists that get record contracts flounder and fail outright; even some experienced artists feel the clutch. A good example is the Offspring, who tried to release one of their albums entirely online, on par with the band's feeling that downloading music should be acceptable. Well the album made absolutely no money and flopped, and the record label cut back their Offspring efforts considerably. Their main opposite, Green Day, is all over the radio; Offspring's new album single barely gets played. You know why you always hear "Gotta Get Away" and other **** off of their early albums instead of new ****? It's because those songs were hot for the label they are no longer on, and the label helps to keep them in rotation for the royalties--a great way to make the bucks at the Offspring's offense, since they are no longer on the payroll of that particular record label. Why waste your money and make them do new albums when all you have to do is give them a pathetically small royalty check every six months for a handful of raido playbacks? They are now on an independent label I believe; thus no financial backing, thus no chance in hell against the mighty battering ram of their death that is Green Day's new album.

BOTTOM LINE!!

Whew. Long but lots of good stuff in there. I suggest you all give it a read if you want to really understand the music industry. I just gave you two years of collegiate learning in one forum post, heh. Bottom line: downloading music hurts the people we need most--new musicians, new acts. It also hurts the record label's abilities and interest to fund multiple new artists.

As someone in a band, I'll say this much. I spent $900 to make an album myself for my old band (I used my computer and such). We made $2000 bucks at our CD release party thanks to a pretty awesome promotion we had involving two models from Playboy's "Girlfriends Magazine" (For ten bucks you got the disc and their autographed book). I saw $40 bucks of that. You can do the math.
 

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