Scientists Make Human Embryo Clones

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this isnt supposed to be a complete religious discussion.

i dont really get it, WHY is an embryo considered human life? an embryo is just a collection of cells, right?
It's hard to say when the clump of cells becomes a human life.
But for me, saying that such an accumulation of cells is a human being would be like saying a sperm cell is a human being.
It's a potential human, so each time a sperm cell dies, a potetntial human dies.
The same with egg cells.

I don't believe in a soul (in the christian sense). I mean when do humans recieve a soul? Right after the gametes fuse?
Then identical twins would have the same soul.
 
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Alright, J-Dude. I've gotta prove something to you right now. There is no such thing as a soul. Why isn't there one? Well look, as you know, our brain is responsible for all of our bodily functions, inculding thinking and feeling. Feelings are nothing but chemicals within the brain. Thoughts are simply information processed by the brain. Yet, when a person dies, so to speak, christians claim that his 'soul' goes to either heaven or hell.

This 'soul' is supposed to have all of our feelings and thoughts inside it, even though science had proven that they are functions of the brain. So if the soul is indeed responsible for us thinking, feeling and generally being conscious, why do we need a brain?

The only way this absurd theory would work is if the soul was some kind of backup of our emotions and thoughts, and generally everything the brain is capable of. But, when you remove a person's brain, his body stops functioning entirely. Why should that happen if he has a soul?

As for the rest of your reply, isn't cloning the birth of a new life? Even if that life is a copy of someone else's life, it's still a life. After all, when your soul goes to heaven, it isn't you, it's a mere copy of you. A copy of your emotions and thoughts which were originally in the brain. With your logic, shouldn't God be the biggest sinner of us all? How many people die daily, J-Dude? How much has he slaughtered by creating copies of us, just like these scientists are doing now?
It's called faith man, faith in your religion that says there is a soul. Don't turn this into a religion debate where it ends up ESF forum community vs. J-Dude. It's not worth it. If you don't have anything to say about the thread, don't bust in here on your anti-religion horse and deliberately flame people.

@j-dude How can you approve of stem cell research and not let them use embryos, they can't make real headway in the research without doing things like this. I'm jewish, I believe in god and a soul, but I don't believe it's murder to kill a collection of artificially created cells in a test tube
 
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I believe a soul has to be earned, and not instantly given at the point of conception. I am not religious, but I still believe there is something beyond the hard-core evidence of a brain and nervous system.

The potential benefits of this are alarmingly greater than a religious taboo. I do not see myself and an embryo as equals. Now there is a certain point in a pregnancy that tells me "okay, this thing is a human".

I believe morals should play a great part in science, but not religion. The idea of a heart transplant can be condemned by radicals, claiming they are transferring one man into another. Even teleportation does/will have complications, because the theory is breaking down a person and rebuilding them at another place.

Human cloning is not a good idea to me, but if they actually let these embryos develop, how normal would one expect them to be?
 
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We'll never know until we try. Trial and error is the way the human race has evolved in every aspect. No one told us how to build houses; we tried, we failed, then we tried again and again until we succeeded. Each generation learns from the mistakes of the former, and makes its on trials, therefore inventing new things, such as this. Future generations will learn from our current mistakes, and I believe that mistakes are made every day in the process of trying revolutionary things. Humans aren't perfect, and trial and error, and learning from our ancestors' mistakes is the only way we'll further evolve our technology. I don't know why Christians are condemning that.
 
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I can see the dilemma. Thankfully I also see the hypocrisy. We're talking about a religion that annihilated other beliefs, persecuted, tortured and executed people, and covered up truth that threatened their beliefs for centuries. Christianity has never been fond of change.

Leave religion out of science and politics.
 
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I can see the dilemma. Thankfully I also see the hypocrisy. We're talking about a religion that annihilated other beliefs, persecuted, tortured and executed people, and covered up truth that threatened their beliefs for centuries. Christianity has never been fond of change.

Leave religion out of science and politics.
You can't blame Christians of today for the ill-led actions of hundreds of years ago. We're not them, and they're not us. We're not Catholic either. I can't defend the past, but I can defend myself and others who follow a similar creed. I'm against this because I see it as murder, not because I'm some evil member of the "Magesterium" actively working to undermine the efforts of "noble truth seekers". So put that away.

Leave your black and white opinions somewhere where people sympathize with you, because it aint here.

EDIT:

Look, I'm sorry to be bringing my very conservative ideals onto an apprently ultra liberal forum, but we're entitled to our opinions, even if they must clash with others. I'm sorry I feel the urge to stand up for what I feel is morally right. Really, this isn't the place where I want to discuss round-about topics like "is there/isn't there a soul/divine entity/etc." And frankly I don't intend to. It's only when certain people (won't name names right now) decide to challenge, and not only challenge, but DISMISS my views on the mere basis that I believe what I believe, that these asinine convos start. I really don't want to argue with you over why the Bible is wrong/right. You can say you're an atheist and you believe this, and I'll say I'm a Christian and I believe this. I'm fine with that, I get that. That doesn't start an argument. Following up by saying, "your views are ignorant and old fashioned because of this, this and this contradicting evidence of this, blah blah blah" is how you start a bad argument that erupts into the crap that I've been unfortunate enough to be in the thick of. I don't really intend or believe I'll change your creed, so please stop thinking you can change mine. I don't want to hear your reasons for the nonexistence of souls, I don't want to hear you demonize Christianity for such stupid things like moron Catholics banning the concept of heliocentricity. Just let us be, all these arguments are going to do is provoke harsh feelings and lock topics.
 
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I'm in total agreement with J-Dude. Man has gone too far this time. We're creating live human beings in the form of embryos (Just think about it! Day old fish eggs are the same thing as fish, with or without fish sperm!) capable of thought and emotion and then destroying them just so evil scientists can help cure humans of various diseases and make all of our lives better. What kind of bull**** is that? I can't believe they have the audacity to do such a thing.

As a God-fearing fellow, I can only stand by and watch as man begins to do the things we were told only God was capable of doing. How dare we become his equals! Someone should rewrite the bible and give him more power because we're getting a little too close for comfort. I'm sure God is like "Whoa, what the ****? How the hell did they manage to do that? It's like I gave them brains and the ability to think and make choices! Blasphemy!"

It ends here and now.

We have to save those embryos and wrap them in blankets and raise them like the people they are. I'm willing to breastfeed several embryos if it means they'll be able to survive until they're at the age of 5, and then I'll stop caring and I won't ensure that they live long and healthy lives. You know, because the birthing part is all that matters.

Oh, and **** that book with the fighting polar bears! I can't believe how anti-christian it is! What? Anti-establishment? The book was really about taking control of your lives rather than be controlled by organizations who prey on our beliefs and fears? Did the Great Satan send you to test my faith? Well, hah! You've failed! Logic and facts don't affect me! I am dirt and magic, you are glue, anything you say to me makes me stick to you because you're an adhesive and I'm made of dirt!
 
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J - Dude, I respect you to try and defend what is dear to you and what you think is right and wrong and what - not. I belive in Soul, I'm not realy a Christian, I have my belives, but notice that people in real life are extremly hard to change, if you do not pass a religious knowledge to them from birth on.

Now, it's even harder to do that on internet. The people here you try to convince will not change their minds and follow up to their non religous belifes. Don't waste your time here and rather improve yourself.

As for Cloning, well, 80 years back we didn't belive we would have such computer and knowledge of what we have now, so, I doesn't suprise me if they are suceeding.
 
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Zeo, please can the sarcasm. This thread has done rather well thus far in terms of a more mature level of debate. Normally I'd blow any religious/political thread out of the water, but this is better than average. So long as people can stay respectful I'll keep it open. So please, and I say this to everyone, don't turn into flaming jerks.
 
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You can't blame Christians of today for the ill-led actions of hundreds of years ago. We're not them, and they're not us. We're not Catholic either. I can't defend the past, but I can defend myself and others who follow a similar creed. I'm against this because I see it as murder, not because I'm some evil member of the "Magesterium" actively working to undermine the efforts of "noble truth seekers". So put that away.

Leave your black and white opinions somewhere where people sympathize with you, because it aint here.
You are right, it isn't a black and white issue. In absolute technical terms, you are right. It is exploiting the human life cycle. If anything, wouldn't you agree that saying that, despite any advances that can be made with this practice and the fact that you are not killing a person*, that it'll always be wrong because it's part of human development?

That's like me saying "Christianity is bad, no matter what you say", despite all the positives brought about people who brought about success because they had faith.

I do not consider harvesting embryos has murdering humans. Hell, a dog has more personality than an embryo, and yet when one gets hit by a car, you don't see it on the news, yet the idea of harvesting embryos is detested by many.


*one who is visually alive, with personality, expression, emotion, goals, etc. As opposed to the phrase "human", which only designates the species, not the character.

EDIT:

Look, I'm sorry to be bringing my very conservative ideals onto an apprently ultra liberal forum, but we're entitled to our opinions, even if they must clash with others. I'm sorry I feel the urge to stand up for what I feel is morally right. Really, this isn't the place where I want to discuss round-about topics like "is there/isn't there a soul/divine entity/etc." And frankly I don't intend to. It's only when certain people (won't name names right now) decide to challenge, and not only challenge, but DISMISS my views on the mere basis that I believe what I believe, that these asinine convos start. I really don't want to argue with you over why the Bible is wrong/right. You can say you're an atheist and you believe this, and I'll say I'm a Christian and I believe this. I'm fine with that, I get that. That doesn't start an argument. Following up by saying, "your views are ignorant and old fashioned because of this, this and this contradicting evidence of this, blah blah blah" is how you start a bad argument that erupts into the crap that I've been unfortunate enough to be in the thick of. I don't really intend or believe I'll change your creed, so please stop thinking you can change mine. I don't want to hear your reasons for the nonexistence of souls, I don't want to hear you demonize Christianity for such stupid things like moron Catholics banning the concept of heliocentricity. Just let us be, all these arguments are going to do is provoke harsh feelings and lock topics.
Now I am not an atheist. I like to consider myself an agnostic "christian", because I don not think the hard core christians-muslims-jews have enough evidence to back their claims up and neither do atheists, but part of me still thinks there's something out there. If there is a God, he demonstrates his power extremely sparingly through time. In fact, it seems only those specific biblical times that he has been documented as directly interfering with humanity. Now and days, we don't hear from him, and people constantly try to bring him into science and politics. He doesn't make appearances for a reason, so I believe people should stop forcing their perceived version of his "will" in the world.

I do not want to change your beliefs. That's not fair. I would love to encourage you to question parts of your faith, but never force you to denounce God, then I'm no better than the Islamic and Christian fundamentalists out there.

However, for us non religious types, you must understand that the argument "God says it's bad" is almost rude. It disrupts any form of debate and reason. One person could believe one thing and another the opposite. They can get into a heated debate, providing facts, opinions, and thoughts. At the end of the day, maybe one side learned something. Maybe spectators learned something. Or maybe one side even changed their mind.

However, when God gets into an argument, the debate loses much credibility. The religious person, or persons, will never consider the other side because in their mind, a mortal can not prove God wrong. Evidence, facts, and history are thrown out of the window because of faith, the act of believing something without evidence.

This is why I and many others here dislike the idea of God entering arguments. The religious one may say that their views are influence by God and that they are not bringing him directly into the debate, but at the end of the day, their "influence" opinion is "I believe this because God says so", and begs the question: Would he still believe it if there were no God?

I will tell you that many people here can get tactless when they go against your christian/conservative views, but to them, it is extremely enticing to hear someone disagree and look down upon a view because of God.
 
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I didn't realize repeating what another person was saying without actually believing it was considered highly disrespectful and an attack on the person rather than his ideas.

Let's try this again.

Is conception all that is required to be considered a full-blown human? Should it be? In my opinion, the answer is and should always be no. To minimize what makes us human is to insult our species as a whole. If one were to say all that is required to be considered human is for a human egg and a human sperm to merge, then we're really no different than the animals we reign over.

What is it that makes us different from the animals? I would argue that our ability to think, make long-term decision and live without being ruled by animal instinct alone is what makes us more than, say, a dog. Based on this definition, when is it that we're able to think, make choices and so on? When does our mind develop? When can we be considered truly sentient beings?

Well, it certainly can't be before our nervous system is created, and the nervous system starts to develop at around the 16th day, so that rules out everything before then. But are we capable of cognitive thought at that stage? I'm going to say no. As time progresses, the baby continues to develop, but as far as we can tell, they are still unable to think, let alone make choices at any of the stages that occur within the womb.

Simply looking like a person shouldn't be all that is required to be considered human. There are far more variables that should be considered before one can decide definitively that that little tadpole in your belly is actually a member of our species.

As for the clones, why not? Why shouldn't we help members of our species who are here with us right now, who desperately need our help and suffer from debilitating diseases? Why should they be forced to suffer because members of a backwards religion deem an embryo human? Why is it that so much attention is focused on forcing people who don't believe themselves to be capable of taking care of their child? Why aren't those same people trying to help children who have already been born? Where are they when those children are abused and victimized by foster parents or people who really only want the benefits that come with owning a child? Nowhere to be found. They simply don't care after the child is born.

If an embryo and stem cells are the key to helping the crippled walk, do it. If those stem cells can cure alzheimer's, do it. If we have the ability to cure every disease known to man at the expense of embryos we, ourselves, created, do it. There's no reason not to.
 
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What the Hell??? I thought human cloning was ILLEGAL, at even the most BASIC level!!! They can't get away with this!!! Creating and harvesting embryos for slaughter? Copying and creating human beings simply to be destroyed for their ingredients??? Bringing SOULS into being, only to banish them back by the hundreds???

This is worst than abortion...This is a worst atrocity than ANYTHING these stem cell bastards have tried to pull!!!
only god can grant a soul.

your argument is void.
 
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This is horrible in my opinion..

Think about it...

We barely know anything about DNA and its' greatly implied "HUGE" potential, and yet people consider themselves ready to Modify, Contaminate, possible cut us off from accessing it's Numerous abilities/potential ?


Edit--

Ever thought of us like this ?

The mind is in every cell of ur body, the mind is what makes up ur body... your brain is the hardware, and your DNA is the software. Now, if we go and mess up our DNA, and play with manipulating genetic DNA just imagine how subceptable you'd be to have something slipped in your Marked Food that would alter your state of conciousness into a controllable one.... Don't think it would be done? Check our marketed food now, Aspartame( found in soda)<-- Breaks down into a poisen.
 
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I'm know you're talking about us becoming the X-Men at some point, but I'm going to ask anyway:

What do you mean by "implied 'HUGE' potential" and "numerous abilities/potential"?
 
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my memory on this is really fuzzy, but from what i recall our DNA responds to the energy that creates matter.

And I mean potentials such as, restoring an your body to its healthy state by accessing the DNA with the mind

also, upgrading your brain or mind to a state of new abilities that people would call psychic or w/e...


I'de have to go look again to tell u more
 
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I think you're absolutely wrong, but I'll run with it. In the event that there are triggers within our DNA that would activate various types of powers within us, why wouldn't scientists be to make those changes happen now, rather than later?
 
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Would it just take a simple cosmic ray altering our DNA to cause this change?
 
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We're bombarded by cosmic rays at all times. The abilities you and Jinx speak of have very little to do with our DNA and more to do with what goes on in your mind.
 
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