Religion in politics

Cunning as Zeus
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J-Dude, when did you decide to want to like the fairer sex? I mean, I personally didn't decide I wanted to bang girls. It kinda just happened and I had no control over it. I'm sure if I tried to force myself to like guys, I wouldn't be able to. But you're different from me, apparently, so when did you decide to like girls?

Let's pretend you aren't different. Let's pretend you were in the same situation as all of us, and had a genetic predisposition to liking girls. Why wouldn't this affect homosexuals in the same way? Why is it that they had to choose to be homosexuals? Do animals choose to be homosexuals too? You do realize there are *** animals, right? Why is something that occurs in nature considered unnatural? Because the voices savages heard thousands of years ago said so? Don't be silly. Homosexuality has been around longer than your Bible, and will around after people stop the second worst science fiction novel around (the first being whatever the hell Hubbard cooked up).

In the case of Lot's wife, she wasn't a homosexual so I don't see your point. Oh no. She witnessed aliens drop a nuclear bomb on two cities and she died. That is what happened, by the way. According to the book I'm writing about how awesome and godly I am, anyway. Take my word for it though.

The New Testament simply builds upon the Old Testament, eh? So slavery, sexism, inequality and bigotry is still alright? Don't be silly, modern pastors and priests say the times have changed so we don't have to pay attention to any of that horrible stuff anymore. Wait a second....the Bible says everything in the Bible is true because it is the inspired word of God according to the Bible! J-Dude, by not enslaving people, treating women like property or dirt, selling your kids, and murdering people who do not bow down to your God, you're disobeying God. Sounds like a ticket to hell to me.

The problem with the Bible is it constantly contradicts itself, and expects its believers to completely ignore those contradictions and continue believing what God says to believe, even if it's the complete opposite of what he told you to believe 10 minutes ago. Here's a pretty site full of inconsistencies and contradictions. There's no opinion involved. Just verses from the good 'ol Bible.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html

Here's a nice little site full of fun reading, also taken directly from the Bible:

http://afgen.com/facts.html


I like how Christians are told to disregard some things in the Bible, while paying special attention to the others, and to take some of what is said as being literal, and other things as being figurative or metaphorical. It's all a matter of convenience, really. Throw out all the bad, and pretend our religion is completely good. That's the way! By doing so, you're treating the Bible as though it isn't saying exactly what God wanted to be said. You're disobeying him. Either believe everything in the Bible, or prepared to get skull-****ed by the Devil (who isn't even who you think it is if you read the Bible).

It's bad fiction. If you want to read a good book, check out Dune or 2001 a Space Odyssey or the Mahabharata.
 

Eon

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I'm also a firm believer homosexuality is genetic, you don't see some high school kid getting picked on and harassed for being girly make a choice that will get him harassed even more. Most homosexual men are disgusted at the fact of having sex with a woman (vice versa for women) just as a straight person would be disugsted by having *** sex.


And if you want to get technical, since being *** is a biblical sin, it's not a mortal sin, it's just as much as a sin as stealing and eating shellfish on friday.
 
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So slavery, sexism, inequality and bigotry is still alright? Don't be silly, modern pastors and priests say the times have changed so we don't have to pay attention to any of that horrible stuff anymore. Wait a second....the Bible says everything in the Bible is true because it is the inspired word of God according to the Bible! J-Dude, by not enslaving people, treating women like property or dirt, selling your kids, and murdering people who do not bow down to your God, you're disobeying God. Sounds like a ticket to hell to me.
What's all this tosh? Absurd. I refuse to believe that any such thing is supported in the Bible. This is all a test of my faith and I will not be moved.
 
Cunning as Zeus
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Read. The. Old. Testament.

If I can push myself to read something I absolutely hate, you can push yourself to read something you absolutely love. You might be surprised to see how evil the God of the Old Testament actually was, which makes his 180 degree back flip all the more strange in the New Testament.
 

Eon

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If I recall correctly, when Joshua and the Hebrews arrived at the (populated) promised land, didn't they have to cleanse the land?

condoned genocide?

GET OFF MAH LAND?!
 
Cunning as Zeus
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Yeah, God told them to exterminate the Hittites.

MOAR:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/god_cana0.htm

He ordered them to kill "the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites [another spelling for Hittites] and the Jebusites" leaving alive nothing that breathes.'"

Good stuff.
 
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Back to the point: Every single time someone has claimed "God" told them to do something in politics, it really didn't turn out too great. Usually it ended in mass-bloodshed, torture or catastrophe.

If you can give me ten good, viable and truthful reasons for religion having a place in politics, I'll agree with you. So far you've only said "*** PEOPLE ARE BAD" and stuff so forth. This only proves you're an intolerant man who preaches the very same thing - and intolerance has no place in politics, much like discrimination and hypocrisy.
 
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Top Ten Reasons to Make *** Marriage Illegal

01) Being *** is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

02) *** marriage will encourage people to be ***, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

03) Legalizing *** marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all like many of the principles on which this great country was founded; women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if *** marriage were allowed; the sanctity of marriages like Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. *** couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.

07) Obviously *** parents will raise *** children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

08) *** marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.

09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) *** marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.
 
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I wiped away a single tear, began clapping slowly, and then began clapping furiously and with great fervor.
 
The Duke of Juke
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Top Ten Reasons to Make *** Marriage Illegal

01) Being *** is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

02) *** marriage will encourage people to be ***, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

03) Legalizing *** marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all like many of the principles on which this great country was founded; women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if *** marriage were allowed; the sanctity of marriages like Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. *** couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.

07) Obviously *** parents will raise *** children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

08) *** marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.

09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

10) *** marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.


On a side note, why is *** still censored?
 
Cunning as Zeus
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Because some people consider it to be a derogatory term or use it as such. You know, 12 year olds and the like. Unleash the rainbow, ESF forum! Oh, I kinda want to use ****, too, so I can talk about Rid**** more often without it being censored.
 
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On the very, very subconscious level *** marriage is a another blow to the sanctity of men over women at the very basic level of power.

Those who love and support men are secondary... *** marriage would be one of the final stepping stones in women's equalization.

As always economically-endeared traditionalists have force-fed a man leads the family and is supported by the woman. There is always the idealistic drop-off when the wife is making more then the husband. It's seen as embarassing rather than just a fact of life and an eventuality factor.

You have to realize at the very, very subconscious level there is a lot of money involved in using the nuclear family design for economic structure and profits.

I just don't understand how the superior powers can't realize that all these homeless/hungry/orphans would benefit from *** couples adoptions. (or they likely don't care, as charity fraud is rampent)

The other main issue is that religion has tied in a blanket routine with a child being pampered from the realities of life.

Thank God the internet has allowed possibly billions of adolescents access to information on general issues they'd find themselves accidently making mistakes before. Then the parents feel very guilty and shameful... and THEN they decide to give their children the complete steps of surviving in society.

Unless... they themselves are no role model... because all of their mistakes have led them to scorn 'my creator' and not to accept, preach, or right any wrongs out of bitterness and embarassment.

Religion has always turned people into wimpering shells instead of invigored soldiers of rightiousness... we haven't used it right at all.

Still... what if it's all really fake? And just another ploy in the grand scheme of monetary injustice.
 
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Some people (aetheists) have no value for our old belief systems, and instead of asking "SHOULD we do this?", they only ask "CAN we do this?". And certain taboos prompted by religious beliefs have true merit.
Now you're saying that you can't have morals if you aren't religious. That's simply nonsense. If you ask me, non-believers are often even more moral than believers at times, since if you're a non-believer, at times it makes you think if what you're doing is really right for you and people around you, while being religious can make some people think 'I don't give a ****, I'll go to church and atone for my sins, God always forgives'. I'm not trying to offend you or your beliefs, it just happens. Some of my (former) friends have turned into street thugs, burglars, and even drug dealers, yet they all continue to go to church and 'atone for their sins', and then going out there and doing it all over again. Admitting your sins to God before admitting them to yourself, do you consider that moral?

EDIT: Religion should definitely be seperated from politics. What happens once the Pope starts cutting funds for research projects and generally anything connected to technology saying 'it's the devil'? BTW, whoever said 'religion is required for freedom' is a moron, that was never true and never will be. Was it not the church that burned all those medieval scientists, among which some claimed scientific facts that are proven correct today? Also, does it imply that all non-religious people are slaves, people that aren't free?

Though personally, I doubt that religion and politics have ever been completely seperated except in Communism, hence the words 'In God We Trust' on the dollar bill.
 
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We discussed this in my Youth and Government group, and I still believe religion has no place in politics.

Let's say there is a debate, one who is religious, one who is not. If the religious person can defend with a "cause God says so" rebuttal, how the hell do you fight god?

And religion is not needed to be a good person. Honestly, if you are just being nice to be so you don't burn forever, then leave me alone. I am actually Christian, though extremely lightly, sometimes bordering agnosticism. I'm nice because I was taught "it's the right thing to do". I don't like to be mean. Not because of a vengeful God, but because the world just seems to work better with positive feelings.

If somebody bases their views and opinions on religion, that makes them unfairly concrete. Ideas and opinions not based on religion are usually potentially subject to change, progression, and improvement. The thing I don't like about religion is that in the wrong minds, it makes people think "**** logic, **** outside opinions, and **** rationality because it goes against the word of God".

Honestly, I think the Bible, and probably many other religious documents, are corrupted by man. I really, really, want to question man's perception of God, but this is not the thread to do so.

Anybody see "The Mist"? The religious lady? Yeah that's what's coming to me now.
 
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You folks seem to do a lot of insinuating about my stance on *** marriage. But did I not say that one of my two best and most trusted friends was homosexual? I admit I was not aware of it until a few years ago, but I am not prejudice because I choose to be. A few other friends of mine discovered this a few years ago, and while I was in a state of shock at this revelation, one of them decided to directly confront him about it during lunch at school. He began to say some very hurtful things to him, and did I join him? No. I got between the two and told the friend verbally attacking my *** friend in no uncertain terms to **** off and leave him alone. I no longer share any ties with the attacking friend. I am not against homosexuality by choice. I have no say in the matter. It is God's will that homosexuality be a sin, and so I must conform to this. I cannot oppose God. There can be no victory against the almighty.

As to people who use religion as a fallback to atone for wrongdoings, God is not stupid. Your sins will only be absolved if you are TRULY sorry for them. There are a lot of people who say they are Christian because they want to see heaven when they die, but there are shockingly few REAL Christians in the world. I don't do good deeds like holding a door open for someone or putting a five in a charity collector's tin because I think "more 'rewards points' towards my ultimate retirement!". I do so because it makes me feel good, both for the satisfaction of the people I have aided, and for how it makes me feel about myself. Catholics and Mormons seem to think that the more good deeds, the more chances to get into heaven. I don't believe that. In the end it's your BELIEF that matters, and nothing else.

In the end though, as to whether religion should be in politics, I think so, even if only to a certain degree. What is required in a stable government is BALANCE. All voices must be heard, and so the religious must also have their own representatives. You cannot simply shut them out.

I might normally think that decensy and civizliation are all common sense, and even without religion at all that humans could thrive in an acceptable moral environment. However, that's when I remind myself that "good and evil" is a matter of perspective. Like all things, liable to change with time. That's why religion seems so important to me, nevermind my own personal beliefs on what the reality of the Universe is. Religion sets certain constants of morality that anchor the human race from straying too far away from it's current perception of what "good an evil" are. If anyone has ever read "Brave New World", then you know just how shockingly far we can stray when religion is taken completely out of the picture. Without it, things we might believe unthinkable today might be commonplace 500 years from now. Truth be told it's frightening to imagine, and if you've read that book than you understand what I'm saying.
 
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J-Dude has made a persuasive argument as to why religion has no place in politics. In fact, we should invent a "religious-fanatic-o-meter" so we can prevent people like him from ever entering politics at all. Hell, they shouldn't even be in charge of the PTA.

We should keep religion a private matter, like Magus and several others have said - at home and in any religious place of worship.

Science is in my opinion the only way forwards. Religion is not. Last time religion ruled the world, we had the Spanish Inquisition, burning people on stakes and let's not forget the bloodiest wedding of all time in Paris.

Sure, religion is nice for feeling safe and preaching morals (to some degree, until a person who's never really understood the bible - like J-Dude comes up and starts reading from it), but do we want a 4000 year old book and a bunch of people who've interpreted it to steer the direction our society is heading?

I think not.
You know, your right. In fact, we should try and completely abolish religion, after all, it causes nothing but problems, right? In fact, the world would be such a better place if everyone was just forced to on accept scientific facts, correct? And the government should mandate what is truly scientific and what isn't.

So whats my point? The reason religion caused so many problems is BECAUSE people where trying to force everyone to believe and act the same way they did. People moved to America because they wanted the right to think freely at the time, that meant practicing any religion they wanted, as such religion was a big factor in way our constitution was written.

Don't get me wrong, the constitution was written in order to be as religiously neutral as possibly, they wanted people to not feel constricted by the government in anyway to any religion because that is what every other nation at the time did.

I'm sorry, but politics and religion can't be separated, no matter how hard you try you cannot make a judgment without your beliefs effecting said decision. I personally put atheism on the same level as religion, because it is a belief system and we have our fair share of atheists that make decisions solely based on their beliefs, but they are not in trouble, they are just doing what they think is right. Now you take someone that is religious in any way and when they make a decision that they think is right we're supposed to say "He is a religious nut that should never been elected."

I'm sorry, but intolerance of ANY belief is wrong and will just cause problems. Whenever any set of beliefs is pushed on the people, then free thinking is hampered and societies progression stagnates. Don't believe me? Look at Soviet Russia, their official religion was Atheism, and how did their nation end up? Bankrupt and collapsed. Whereas the US has been going strong with its tolerance for any belief system.
 
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J-Dude, I have a legitimate question for you. Let's say there is a God, if he gave us free will, then why can't we question his word when common sense dictates us to believe/feel that another course of action is right? Isn't that the beauty of free will?

I think god would actually be disappointed in us, if after he gave us something as amazing as free-will, we then followed his word blindly like sheep.
---

On a side note.

The bible says pi=3, and that the earth is flat.
 
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J-Dude, I have a legitimate question for you. Let's say there is a God, if he gave us free will, then why can't we question his word when common sense dictates us to believe/feel that another course of action is right? Isn't that the beauty of free will?

I think god would actually be disappointed in us, if after he gave us something as amazing as free-will, we then followed his word blindly like sheep.

You think God expects us to question the rules he set for us? Why? To test our instincts about what is right? You think he expects us to reject his laws, risking our souls, in order to test how far we're willing to go to do what we feel is right? That's an odd thought...
 
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J-Dude, I have a legitimate question for you. Let's say there is a God, if he gave us free will, then why can't we question his word when common sense dictates us to believe/feel that another course of action is right? Isn't that the beauty of free will?

I think god would actually be disappointed in us, if after he gave us something as amazing as free-will, we then followed his word blindly like sheep.
I agree. That's actually kinda funny.

"Okay, here's free will. Enjoy it."
"Thanks God! You're the best!"
"No problem. Now worship me, or burn in Hell."
 

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