Question...

[RobiZ]

IMO sometimes projects like these, grow only after releasing. If there are not as much members on forums as you would like to see, that's okay, because there's nothing to do here for now. When the ESF:F gonna release, it's gonna reborn again and be full of cool people.

 

[Zeonix]

No offense, but that's ridiculous. We had a large, lively community. And then they made a series of bad decision in hiring certain people, and 90% of the forum got banned. Certain kinds of artwork couldn't be shown here. Politics? Get out. Religion? No seriously, get out. It's taken years of lobbying to get them to lighten up. And now there's no one left. Everyone has moved on because there was nothing keeping them here. As I've been arguing since forever, they need to learn the meaning of retention. Relying on a new release to create a community is the worst possible approach to building a community if you do absolutely nothing to retain the people you have. Like Dark, I'm not here for the mod. I'm about 99% certain the game itself is going to suck, but Dark, Sub and Magus are still here so whatever.

So yeah, will people come here when final is released in 30 years? Undoubtedly. And what's going to keep them playing? What's going to keep the community going? Raven straight up said he doesn't like the community, so I don't think relying on them to keep the forum afloat is going to cut it.

 

[TwisteR]

If there are not as much members on forums as you would like to see, that's okay

It really isnt okay. I get what you mean about the forum getting a spike in activity when its released, and that will definitely be true, but to have the mentality that its okay to leave the forum baron like this until then, is wrong. That seems like an excuse to slack off on the progress. I suppose everyone is entitled to work on it at their leisure, because they are, but with that comes consequences and side effects. Something seems off here, and it really isnt the progress of development.

No offence to anyone here, I like most of the people that frequent the forums, but I am here for the mod. Im into modeling, skinning, animating and artwork in general. Its pretty neat to see how much more the team can push the limits of Half Life and its kind of sad to see such a lack of attention to the people that genuinely support the project. The vibe Im getting here now-a-days, is that nobody really cares what happens to the main site, the forum and the people that browse it.

Its actually pretty simple and this has worked for a small business I ran: If you generate more content for the main site, it will spark more interest in the mod, and with that comes new users that might be curious to know more and get involved in the community. You get more people to sign up on the forums, more interest is generated and the team might just feel motivated enough to work just a little bit harder to make a deadline and get this thing completed.

The idea to bring on some freelance developers to help finish the mod, isnt a bad one. But from the outside this mod seems somewhat dead, and who wants to be part of that. If you spark up some activity on the main site and on the forums, youll most likely attract new people, with talent, and they might just lend a helping hand and be proud to be a part of the ESF community.

 

[Zeonix]

Its actually pretty simple and this has worked for a small business I ran: If you generate more content for the main site, it will spark more interest in the mod, and with that comes new users that might be curious to know more and get involved in the community. You get more people to sign up on the forums, more interest is generated and the team might just feel motivated enough to work just a little bit harder to make a deadline and get this thing completed.

Adding onto this, if you took everything from the black star section and turned it into developer diaries, and threw them on the main site, it'd get a lot more attention, and by people who are actually into that kind of thing.

For me, I don't care about how the game looks, or that you created realistic water and I can literally feel the wind blow through my hair when I play the game. Because thats what ESF is to me: a game. Because it's a game, all I want to see and read about are things that relate to gameplay. I can't play the grass, or play the water. Those are supplementary features; the potatoes to the steak that is melee. And what amazes me is this steak, the core of the game, is what we've seen the least. I really have no idea what gameplay really looks like in action because you guys don't think its perfect, and since it isn't perfect no one can see it. That's a bullshit approach to what is supposed to be a competitive game. Show red boxes in uninterrupted gameplay footage. The people who are actually going to play the game, and buy the servers, and keep the game alive wouldn't care if there were bugs in the video. And that's what you guys don't get. You're catering to people who aren't even part of the community, and telling everyone else to **** off. You go ingame right now, and you won't recognize most of the names, because the player base and forum base are two separate communities. Those are the guys you should take care of. They're spending money to keep your game afloat, and what do they have to show for it? Nothing. Not even a "Thanks, friends!" from the team.

 

[IceX]

I agree with everything Zeo and TwisteR said here, but I also see where Raven is coming from. Running such a huge project in your free time is a huge burden and surely most of it is on Raven's shoulders.

I worked on ESF 2D art for a while and got some stuff done, but when I get busy with other projects (paid ones), of course ESF takes a side role and slips out of my mind after a month or so. This is just a harsch reality, that people who are good at what they do, spend their time working for paid projects rather than working on free mods. I don't see an easy solution to this problem and I see why the ESF team wouldn't want to hire people to do the work, because like Raven said it's simply unfair.

Like mentioned before, I think the team should show off more content, even if it's buggy, the people that matter and can make a change for ESF, wouldn't care if they see bugs and those are the kind of people you want in your community.

I hope I didn't make anybody mad because of my post, but I'm glad somebody actually brough this up, because it's probably the most important issue that the team should focus on atm.

 

[TwisteR]

And its not about giving in to the demands of the forum users by posting more content, its much more long term than that, its the big picture that you have to look at. To bring more activity to the main site and the forums would draw more people in, and who knows who will stop by and help out or voluntarily promote ESF further by word of mouth. Wasnt ESF featured in a PC magazine or something back in the day? I wonder how the magazine editors heard of it and thought to feature ESF in an article, I know I remember seeing it on PC gamer's website some time ago, that would feel pretty gratifying as one of the developers. I happen to have some experience and success in advertising and promoting, and I must say if I was able to put a small, privately owned theater on the map, the same can be done for ESF using the same tactics.

 

[sub]

I understand that projects like this which rely on volunteers take a lot of time to complete. I think part of the reason you guys have had such a hard time attracting talent is because the mod lacks transparency. If I want to contribute to a properly managed open source project, I can browse the source, I can look at to-do lists, I can see assets which still need to be completed, and I don't need anyone's permission to start working on something. If the project managers are presented with a feature which is done and works properly, they'll most likely accept with no problem.

ESF needs two things to attract more help.

1) Transparency. Clearly outline what still needs to be done, what is currently being done (and how far along it is), and what is all ready completed. This should be out in the open.
2) Media blitz. You don't need to advertise much so that people will play the game when it's complete, I think it'll go viral, but you do need to advertise a lot to get the attention of people who know how to do something which can be of help to the mod. Right now how do you expect people to discover ESF? It's rare that it happens, because the mod isn't making any waves. If on the odd chance someone talented happens to discover ESF, they're going to be turned away by a lack of updates (last update was months ago, this is a red flag to me whenever I visit a project that I'm interested in).

I couldn't even tell you what ESF still needs at this point. Is animation the bottleneck? Is it models? Maps? Coding? Sounds? All of the above?

If you guys are willing to do the transparency thing but aren't willing to spend time creating that content and advertising it, I will gladly do it. If not, then maybe it's not our fault that the community isn't helping.

 

[DaRkOwNs]

Here's another good point. I dunno if anyone reading this was around during 1.1 or 1.2, but the majority of long term players weren't even using the base models/maps of the game. Often enough times (except for Cell_Night/Day), we were in custom maps and using ssj3 goku models and shit. If it weren't for the users themselves doing stuff like that, the game would've died a lot sooner than it did.

Even Gabe Newell said that "They gave up trying to compete with the community base, and instead let them use themselves as content". Community is everything to a game, whether you like that community or not. Anyone who doesn't understand that is just playing with a dream that'll never see reality.

Edit: Sub also makes a good point. We know absolutely nothing about the mod. And why? What does anyone stand to lose by not knowing the exact level of detail that the mod is at?

What I see happening when this mod is finally released is a decent surge of popularity, then a huge drop-off until it can't really be considered playable. The people playing the game will be blamed, instead of producers because the people -making- the game can't be guilty of anything because they put work into it.

 

[UZIboy4201]

I have never quiet understood why so much secrecy behind a mod. I understand why fully licensed games have so much *hush* *hush* but with something like ESF I never quiet understood why the developers wouldn't want to talk more about it. There is a lot of good things that I have learned from a series on Youtube.com called "Extra Credits" and something that was said stuck in my brain and will be there forever is "It is never to early to start testing". You can't be afraid to have someone rip your project to pieces figuratively speaking.

There are two major things I can think of to help get thing firing on all cylinders again and that is weekly/spontaneous updates about game's development. The other option I can think of which is probably the best at this point based on what I have read is to release an "alpha" version of the game. Just make it very clear that this is an alpha product and is unfinished and things are likely to change. Anyone play the new DayZ standalone? I mean in it's present state there are barely any zombies and it's more pvp oriented. There are tons of bugs and connection issues which they charge $29.99 US and have sold over million copies for an *ALPHA*. People are willing to play and can have fun with whatever state it is in. When you add a new feature it is like adding whip cream to warm pumpkin pie. The pie is awesome by itself but adding the whip just takes it to that next level!

 

[tvirus06]

DaRkOwNs, is right. No one gives a crap about this mod, its the community which counts . Its loaded with fun. And also in 30 years, etc. I would probably be with my own family working, and have no idea what this game is....

 

[Raven]

If you guys are willing to do the transparency thing but aren't willing to spend time creating that content and advertising it, I will gladly do it. If not, then maybe it's not our fault that the community isn't helping.

Are you offering a hand writing all that stuff down into articles and website content, after interviewing me or the other devs on everything that should be transparent?

DaRkOwNs, is right. No one gives a crap about this mod, its the community which counts . Its loaded with fun. And also in 30 years, etc. I would probably be with my own family working, and have no idea what this game is....

Let's agree to disagree. What counts for me, and I think my team as well, is developing this game in a way that is both comfortable and compatible with our lifestyles, everything else is a byproduct. What motivates me the most are my team members, who are the most caring and most awesome people I met in my life and we have a bond that most other mod teams do not have. Hell I traveled around the world meeting those guys in person, hanging out with Mastasurf and Darkooth on a non-professional basis. I call these people close friends and hanging out with them on Teamspeak and discussing our plans and make them a reality is what really keeps us going, he never had a topic about "well do we think this is what the community will like". The project has changed a lot and it is extremely hard to make any deadlines at all.

 

[Zeonix]

he never had a topic about "well do we think this is what the community will like".

Which is why advanced melee exists.

 

[Raven]

Which is why advanced melee exists.

That could be, however that wasn't my decision. On the other hand 1.2.3. had more than 3million downloads so far, so even though most people don't like it, the game was still what I call a success.

 

[dutchmeat]

Personally I don't care about the current community(or lack of, according to some), I think you guys should be proud as hell when you eventually release it. I've said this before and I will do so again, it's really impressive what you guys have done with this engine, the game design is really cool and the fact that you managed to keep yourselves motivated thus far is inspiring.

If the mod gets released, I'm sure we will be able to get the attention it deserves.

 

[Zeonix]

The main site has 2 download links, one to hl2files and one to moddb. Where are you seeing 3 million downloads?

Secondly, that's over the course of a decade. We only ever had a couple of hundred active players ingame, which quickly dwindled immediately after the release of 1.2, picked up for the first patch, dwindled, picked up for the second patch, kept dwindling, picked up for a bit, and then dwindled once more. Who kept the game alive? The team? Yeah, no. It was the people who's opinions didn't matter who kept this ship afloat. They bought the servers, they held the tournaments, they gave out the prizes. They kept the ingame community alive. Because of loyalty to the game. You asked me about loyalty, and yet in your very first post you say you don't care about the community, and in this last post you say the opinions of the community don't even factor into the game. Are you creating a game so that you're good at it, or so that a community can play it competitively? But it's fine. At least its all out there now.

 

[Raven]

If the mod gets released, I'm sure we will be able to get the attention it deserves.

The thing is, I'm personally not demanding any attention, or asking people to wait for it or make good comments about a non-released product. Either stick with the community and enjoy what we drop of every now and then, or be done with it for real and if it is released check it out if you like and if you are butthurt because we kept you waiting then I frankly don't give a damn.

 

[Raven]

Are you creating a game so that you're good at it, or so that a community can play it competitively? But it's fine. At least its all out there now.

Both, but first off I'm creating a game that is fun to me and the team. Still you are basing all your comments on me it seems. There are more opinions than my own this is not a one man show.

 

[dutchmeat]

The thing is, I'm personally not demanding any attention, or asking people to wait for it or make good comments about a non-released product. Either stick with the community and enjoy what we drop of every now and then, or be done with it for real and if it is released check it out if you like and if you are butthurt because we kept you waiting then I frankly don't give a damn.

Hear, hear!

 

[Zeonix]

Both, but first off I'm creating a game that is fun to me and the team. Still you are basing all your comments on me it seems. There are more opinions than my own this is not a one man show.

It says project manager under your name. Thats why your opinion carries more weight than someone who has to go to you to ask permission to make something public.

 

[Damaera]

Both sides have good points that I can agree with, and most of the concerns regarding the mod are pretty valid and I agree with most of them in some form. However, there are a few things that I'd like to bring up.

• The first thing is hiring someone to help complete the game. It is true that the mods progress would definitely go by faster if an artist were to be hired to help complete the work that needs to still be done, but it's not really that easy and simple to do for the team. For starters, as Raven already said they're pretty much against paying people money to help complete the game. In reality it would save a bunch of time and make a lot of sense to hire an artist who is willing to help work on the mod for a paycheck, but I can see the artists being uneasy with that. Some of you might be wondering why and think it's dumb because the upset members are volunteering and the person being paid is simply doing their job, but I can completely understand where they would be coming from if they were upset. What the team doing is volunteer work, but just the fact that somebody would be getting paid to work on the mod while the others aren't would certainly seem unfair to people, and I honestly agree. Another thing is that there would certainly be more attention on ESF, in a bad way. If someone got hired to work for ESF, some heads would be turned and ESF could possibly be asked to shut down, specifically because someone is being paid to recreate content that requires a license, something that the team certainly doesn't have.
  
  
• The next thing is the media that gets released. I'm just going to say it exactly the way I see it: the developers don't really owe the community any content at all. The person that owes us content is the PR guy (Deverz), who appears to be busy/MIA. I would imagine that most of the developers goals are to finish the mod, and not keep the community entertained, while Deverz is keeping in touch with the developers to help fulfill the communities needs and keep everyone satisfied. With that being said though, if the team wants the community to grow and have more people around, including people who could potentially be future developers, then this mod definitely needs more publicity as well as more media being released. Most of what I've heard about you guys (the team) not wanting to release more media is simply because things are buggy/aren't complete, and your reasoning behind not wanting to show buggy/incomplete content is because people would ***** and moan about it. While this is true, you in turn get people losing interest in the game, people leaving the community, and people *****ing and moaning about the lack of content being released. Basically regardless of whether or not you show buggy/incomplete content, people will be always be unhappy. Because of that, I'm not really understanding the reasoning behind being afraid of hearing people unhappy about content like that. The question is, which side will be more happy? Yes, you will always have the ungrateful people such as LSSJ *****ing about you guys taking so long just to have a video or screenshot containing buggy content, but the majority will be happy to actually see new content and that progress is being made. By releasing more media, you will be catering to the majority instead of the minority, as what appears to currently be the case.
  
  
• As for the community, I'm pretty much repeating what I said with my previous point, but releasing more content will definitely help build and retain the community. One thing that I would like to mention however, is that I think you guys are putting too much faith in the future community that this place will have. Going by the ZEQ2(I really hate to bring this game up, but this could very likely apply to the future community, going by the current online dbz game communities I've seen) and ModDB communities, most of the members are young teenagers who don't fluently speak English and act kind of out of hand. I'm not sure if they act out of hand in these communities because there's a lack of proper rules being forced, but it's something I thought would be worth mentioning. I have also seen very little interest in these people wanting to learn how to create content, and the majority I've seen who actually do create content are veterans from the modding community who return that show off their work or are there to help out with completing whatever needs to be done. In short, building a community would be nice but it most likely wouldn't help at all when it comes down to getting more people involved with developing ESF.

I'm tired, ranted a lot, and could have put a lot more effort into explaining my thoughts more properly but **** it. That's pretty much my thoughts on everything.