Question...

[UZIboy4201]

Disclaimer: This is no way, shape or form of a complaint but more of a concern/suggestions.

I have been a part of ESF going way back when to the 1.1 era. I didn't participate much in the forums at the time.. just mainly playing the game and have a good time. I can't wait for ESF: Final to release but with that being said the lack of videos and/or post on the main page is disappointing and all I see now is POTW on a regular basis. I know all the devs have lives outside of the game and for what they are doing is defiantly worth the wait. I used to check the site daily, then as time drug on with no sort of updates I started checking it weekly, then monthly, and now its at the point where interesting updates are so far and between I'll check the site every 2-4 months maybe even longer than that.

Aren't the developers worried about people losing interest in the game/mod? I know more information is provided via the forums but majority of people are going to look the main page and notice a huge time gap between updates. Why would they even consider registering or glimpsing at the forums? Even something as little as "X person finished textures for Buu's face" or "currently working on Truck's melee combat and balancing" just something to keep your community up to date. Perfect example is the last two post on the main site ""Destruction Answers By Deverz on Fri, 2013-07-05 19:41"" --> "ModDB MOTY Top 100! By Deverz on Thu, 2013-12-12 21:51". That is almost a 6 month gap in time and with that big of gap you would assume a lot has been done and have a lot to share. Not to say that being top 100 isn't good or worth being proud of and wanting to share it but with that big of a gap in time there needs to be something regarding development of the game to keep not only your current community/player base interested but for people new to ESF as well.

In most cases your community/player base is just as important as your project itself. This may sound harsh but without a community/player base supporting your game/mod making it is pretty pointless and I highly doubt you guys are just making this game/mod for yourselves to play. You are clearly making this because you love to make game(s) and want to share them with the world. You should be actively looking for ways to bring more attention into ESF to more people and be loyal to your current player base by just keeping us in the "know".

 

[Raven]

Uhm simple answer even though this is just my personal opinion. I'm not worried about people losing interest. I am absolutely confident that there will be plenty of people available to play once we release it. I don't think making a mod is pointless without a community, I would work on ESF without a single fan, no offense to the community but the community hasn't "supported" us with anything so far, at least not for the final. I'm just going to mention Project Tien here...
Therefore I see no point in bringing more attention to ESF at this point. The only think we could use to release this any faster is man power of skilled, motivated individuals that are trustworthy and reliable enough not to vanish after a couple of week. And they usually don't fall from the sky but have to be convinced to help or trained in countless hours. Those are just my to cents.

 

[Zeonix]

At the same time, when presented with options, such as a member of the community hiring modelers with his own money, he gets shot down. So while the community is completely useless and you could do without any of us, let's not pretend people haven't attempted to help in order to speed up a production that's taken a decade to get this far.

 

[Raven]

At the same time, when presented with options, such as a member of the community hiring modelers with his own money, he gets shot down. So while the community is completely useless and you could do without any of us, let's not pretend people haven't attempted to help in order to speed up a production that's taken a decade to get this far.

That is correct, however the team decided not to ever bring in any money into the development. I couldn't explain to our other modelers why some new guy would get money for his work. Doing that would be very disrespectful in my opinion and would not honor the sacrifice of free time and sweat the current and former members have put into this project.

Still if you can fine someone who is willing to complete a sub-project such as a model, including uv-mapping and texturing at a required quality level for free I'm not going to shut that offer down. So far I haven't been directly contacted by someone who has those skills and motivation.

 

[Zeonix]

He'd be getting money because someone who isn't on the team is paying them to do it. He'd be a contractor. Contractors get paid. Want to get paid? Quit the team and answer the call the mysterious benefactor put out.

 

[Raven]

Then let me put it this way if someone comes along and says: "hey Raven someone motivated me to help you guys with a model, pick one and I'll do it" then I would gladly accept.

 

[Zeonix]

And that's why, 10 years later, the mod isn't done. There comes a time where pragmatism is necessary, and hoping that some guy is going to just show up and help you guys out just doesn't make any sense. You don't care that the community is nonexistent, and you think there's no point in advertising. Cool. So how are we supposed to interest modelers, and mappers and whoever else you need? Word of mouth? You guys aren't doing anything to attract these kinds of people, and then blaming the community for not helping. I'm sorry the 12 year olds don't have skills, and I'm sorry you refuse to accept help from contractors. But that's all on you guys. Don't backhand the community because the forum has been handled terribly, and there's zero advertising.

 

[Raven]

Don't get me wrong, I love this community, I just don't make my ESF work depend on community demands. There is however one really good example, I know that he might not have been a good community member in some people's opinion but RobiZ showed up on teamspeak one day and asked to help out, unfortunately his skills were not sufficient at this point, so I was asking him if he was willing to spend countless hours learning the things I would direct him to and he did by then improve very very much and took at the advice we gave him and he is at this point actually able to help out and if his computer would be good enough to run ESF he would probably be part of the team now.
However other guys I found by browsing portfolio's or asking people I know and then directly asking them to help out as you would have guessed 95% have either no time, no interest in dbz or want to get paid.

 

[Raeku]

I don't really think that there is a lack of interest or willingness to support the team with ESF: Final but quite simply there aren't many active members in the community and probably very very few with any animation, modeling or mapping abilities on par with the team.

Learning a skill set from scratch or, in my case, learning how to map on par with the awesome maps that I've seen planned for the final is bloody intimidating and by the time I am able to MAYBE put something out, that is worth anything, the game will probably be finished.

So while I have a ton of admiration for what the team is busy doing, I don't understand how the team can honestly expect such a small community with so little developmental ability to contribute in any meaningful way. Maybe invest effort in growing and maintaining the community until such time that more development orientated individuals join? (Which I admit, is quite a long shot and perhaps not worth the effort)

I would gladly contribute financially (what little I could) but I get the impression that this is not really a necessity.

As for the update intervals, as a forum member I'm not all too concerned about that. The people out there who only check the homepage and aren't part of the forum probably wonder if work is going ahead at a reasonable rate and naturally some of them will join the forum if only to try and find out. Treating them with apprehension isn't really the way to go.

------

Didn't see the new posts. Maybe my reply is a bit of a knee-jerk, take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[Zeonix]

Don't get me wrong, I love this community, I just don't make my ESF work depend on community demands. There is however one really good example, I know that he might not have been a good community member in some people's opinion but RobiZ showed up on teamspeak one day and asked to help out, unfortunately his skills were not sufficient at this point, so I was asking him if he was willing to spend countless hours learning the things I would direct him to and he did by then improve very very much and took at the advice we gave him and he is at this point actually able to help out and if his computer would be good enough to run ESF he would probably be part of the team now.
However other guys I found by browsing portfolio's or asking people I know and then directly asking them to help out as you would have guessed 95% have either no time, no interest in dbz or want to get paid.

Why would someone help out with a project they have no emotional investment in for free? That's a bizarre request, and if my skill as a modeler were sufficient, I'd actually be offended. By contracting out, I would have been able to dictate the terms. Hey, we need x model in x time. Can you do it? "Well, I'm not sure" If you can't, someone else will, and for less. "I'll do it". And now we have models getting produced at the cyclic. Had you accepted when I offered, this mod would be done as far as models and maps go. But pride got in the way. "Why are they getting paid, but I didn't?" Because your handlers were too cheap to incentivize the production of this mod. That isn't the community's fault. That's a leadership issue.

We had a community of modelers and mappers once upon a time. What did the team do? Squander their abilities. Or banned 90% of them either because Pain was insane or because they wanted to post artful nudity, and the prudes wouldn't allow them to. God forbid, right? You guys had your chance for free work, and you threw it all away. But at least you have Robiz, right?

@Raeku: In regards to the main page, that shit barely gets updated. If I hadn't a clue about ESF, and that was my first stop, it would also be my last stop.

What the team needs to do is start advertising now. You want talent? You have to work for it. You have to make the talent come to you. There are a shit ton of kids still in school looking for an opportunity, like Robiz. Give them a reason to come here. Stop sitting on your laurels and complaining that the remnants of the community aren't helping. You clearly don't want my help, and most of the community simply can't help. So its on you.

 

[Tenzo]

I get what you're trying to say Raven but isn't it kind of odd to say that you don't need a community? Who are you making it for then? Just yourselves (dev team)? What motivates you picking it up and working for it every week?
I'm sorry to see that you feel that way.

 

[Raven]

I get what you're trying to say Raven but isn't it kind of odd to say that you don't need a community? Who are you making it for then? Just yourselves (dev team)? What motivates you picking it up and working for it every week?
I'm sorry to see that you feel that way.

I'm making it because I got addicted to it and I'm not the kind of guy to abandon a project I started. But like I stated that is just my personal opinion the team has a few more members.

@Zeo: I agree with you, pride got in the way. That's how it is. But the team decides things together and we're not a dictatorship, so don't take my word for it, talk to the other members and ask them why they feel how they feel if it is something that interests you.

 

[Zeonix]

I can't be trusted with that kind of information, Raven.

 

[Raven]

I can't be trusted with that kind of information, Raven.

Is that a fact?

 

[Zeonix]

It's what I've been told numerous times by team members despite me doing absolutely nothing to garner that reputation, so let's just assume its a fact. After all, it was you who felt it necessary to test me.

 

[Raven]

It's what I've been told numerous times by team members despite me doing absolutely nothing to garner that reputation, so let's just assume its a fact. After all, it was you who felt it necessary to test me.

I recall those incidents that got you banned in the past. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't answer virtually any question regarding the development.
I personally honor loyalty above everything, and I'm sure you value that as well. Do you?

 

[Eon]

And that's why, 10 years later, the mod isn't done. There comes a time where pragmatism is necessary, and hoping that some guy is going to just show up and help you guys out just doesn't make any sense. You don't care that the community is nonexistent, and you think there's no point in advertising. Cool. So how are we supposed to interest modelers, and mappers and whoever else you need? Word of mouth? You guys aren't doing anything to attract these kinds of people, and then blaming the community for not helping. I'm sorry the 12 year olds don't have skills, and I'm sorry you refuse to accept help from contractors. But that's all on you guys. Don't backhand the community because the forum has been handled terribly, and there's zero advertising.

Well duh that's why we have a PR guy!



oh shit whoops nevermind

I recall those incidents that got you banned in the past. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't answer virtually any question regarding the development.
I personally honor loyalty above everything, and I'm sure you value that as well. Do you?

People like zeo who've been around here forever and even helped prevent a leak or two need to learn a thing or two about loyalty, i agree

 

[Zeonix]

You recall a single incident involving me blatantly asking to be banned, and then idling on the forum in Eon's account waiting for Sky to check my IP (as he was known to do at the time). I know that's all you remember, because that's literally the only incident that could be construed as "untrustworthy", despite me being quite public about it.

But since you're so eager and willing to disseminate information, why not open the black star section to the community at large, rather than have it "exclusive" to 15 members. There really isn't anything mind-blowing in that section, but it'd give the community a look at the developmental process. If you refuse to advertise to new people, why not attempt to inspire those who are currently present?

Also, don't talk to me about loyalty. I've had every opportunity in the world to ruin this mod, and all I've ever done is protect and preserve it. Where were you when the mod was in its death throes and there were no servers? Where were you when Minion leaked the beta? Were you the one feeding Cuc intel and handing him logs? It's absolutely absurd that Dam can take part in the Minion fiasco and become a mod or pr guy or whatever he was, but I'm the one who can't be trusted. If you valued loyalty, I wouldn't be the enemy. Stick to your cliques, and hold on to your pride.

 

[Eon]

it's funny because i was literally copy pasting shit from hidden forums to zeo for like years


so were other admins because they liked to vent to zeo, ask cuc or pain!



the funny thing is the whole sharing my account thing was a huge deal when all zeo could see that he couldn't see before was the senior mod section


because he already had mod section access and was a beta tester

 

[DaRkOwNs]

Uhm simple answer even though this is just my personal opinion. I'm not worried about people losing interest. I am absolutely confident that there will be plenty of people available to play once we release it. I don't think making a mod is pointless without a community, I would work on ESF without a single fan, no offense to the community but the community hasn't "supported" us with anything so far, at least not for the final. I'm just going to mention Project Tien here...
Therefore I see no point in bringing more attention to ESF at this point. The only think we could use to release this any faster is man power of skilled, motivated individuals that are trustworthy and reliable enough not to vanish after a couple of week. And they usually don't fall from the sky but have to be convinced to help or trained in countless hours. Those are just my to cents.

I just wanted to address this very quick, as it's something only F2P and mmo games seem to understand. What your fanbase supports you with is content. Not models, maps, sprites, or sounds. The community itself IS the content, and one that you're supposed to put equal work into as you do your resources because, without you're players, you just have a set of pretty pictures running at 30fps.

So what did us seasoned veterans get for our loyalty? Pretty much absolute silence. I don't think I've seen half the "team" post in years. Why do we stick around? Not because of the mod, you guys have already proven you don't care (if this thread didn't confirm that for anyone, just look through some of the old force pit posts), but because we made friends here we don't want to simply throw away.

As for the community assistance, what do you expect out of people? If those random ass ******* video games can make an account on a website that asks for donations from random people and make several hundred thousands of dollars, why can't you? Because funimation? What's the result gonna be if they close you down? You stop working on it sooner? Most of us don't have the expertise, or the time, to learn how to contribute, just like you don't have the time to work on it. But you know what we -didn't- do? Promise to make you a game when we had nothing to work with.

Sorry, just tired of excuses. We don't care about this mod anymore, that ship sailed. Close it down if you like, there's no way it's gonna live up to the time it took to release it if, indeed, it ever does get released. The reason "I" stick around is for Sub, Zeo, Eon, and the other couple people that are fun to terrorize people with.