Ki regeneration and Stamina

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I was thinking that Stamina should create penalties and bonuses for players.

If Stamina is full, you will regenerate health.
-If you kill someone and have time for a breather, you'll recoup a little before your next fight. 5 HP per second. You'd have to untrans to really get the benefit from this.

If Stamina is empty, or nearly empty, then you won't regenerate Ki.
-Creates opportunities to use Finishers. By the time the downed person regained their Stamina, to then regenerate enough Ki to stand up, the opponent would be ready to blast them. It's easy enough to program too, making it all the better.
 
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If Stamina is full, you will regenerate health.
-If you kill someone and have time for a breather, you'll recoup a little before your next fight. 5 HP per second. You'd have to untrans to really get the benefit from this.
Basically a good idea. If they - and Im sure they will - decrease the HP from, lets say, 450 to 150, than 5 HP per second are of course way to much. And since I hope that every char that can untrans like the Sayains loose stamina the higher the trans level is its a good idea to have to untrans to really benefit from it. The only downside I see is that it would make Buus ability to regenerate a bit less special and worthy.

If Stamina is empty, or nearly empty, then you won't regenerate Ki.
-Creates opportunities to use Finishers. By the time the downed person regained their Stamina, to then regenerate enough Ki to stand up, the opponent would be ready to blast them. It's easy enough to program too, making it all the better.
This is also a good idea, as long as it doesnt happens too often that u run out of stamina. If it does then it would disturbe the flow of the gameplay.
 
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Basically a good idea. If they - and Im sure they will - decrease the HP from, lets say, 450 to 150, than 5 HP per second are of course way to much. And since I hope that every char that can untrans like the Sayains loose stamina the higher the trans level is its a good idea to have to untrans to really benefit from it.
I hope they don't change the health. I like it the way it is now. I think it promotes the wrong kind of gameplay when you make it too easy to kill weaker players with a single attack. Some people play the game just so they can jump around and spam to get over 100 kills, cuz dey r teh 1337zorz and so much better than u.


This is also a good idea, as long as it doesnt happens too often that u run out of stamina. If it does then it would disturbe the flow of the gameplay.
Very true, the damage to stamina needs to be tested so it doesn't happen every 10 seconds.

This is the way I see it. If players have 450 health, then it would take awhile of meleeing to kill each other. If it's a back and forth melee fight, and no finisher openings can be created from Stamina loss, then wouldn't it be worth having the fight take 2 minutes to resolve? Wouldn't it be more fun and worthwhile to have a victory result from a longer fight with a skilled player?

On the other hand, if it's a one-sided fight and the other person gets their stamina knocked to nothing in the first 20 seconds, then other player can use a Ki attack to finish them off so that these kinds of fights don't take any longer than they should.

So in this regard, the extra Health would simply be a feature that allowed better players to fight longer, and nubs to be executed in the coolest way possible.


On a side note, I don't think SSJ transing should result in a lower Stamina regeneration rate, since it would give Perma-trans characters too much of an advantage. At least the way it is now. Only if they changed it so Stamina damage was based on a fraction of your overall stamina, and transing added the Stamina to your current, would I think this is fair.

Perma-trans would take more stamina damage per hit because of having a higher overall Stamina, and SSJ + Frieza could use transformations to get second winds from added stamina bonuses. On the flip side, perma-trans wouldn't have regeneration rate penalties to their stamina, and could regenerate health in their final forms when not fighting. This makes sense since that would be Cell and Buu, the two regenerating evil villains.

The only downside I see is that it would make Buus ability to regenerate a bit less special and worthy.
This would work well with Buu's regenerate ability, since you could use both at once so he would regenerate faster out of combat. Boo-yah! :yes:
 
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I hope they don't change the health. I like it the way it is now. I think it promotes the wrong kind of gameplay when you make it too easy to kill weaker players with a single attack. Some people play the game just so they can jump around and spam to get over 100 kills, cuz dey r teh 1337zorz and so much better than u.
There will always be players who join the server, load up a super powerful attack after another and then let it go on other players who are in the middle of an melee combat. I dont like the 450 HP just because I always use melee in serious battles and hardly attack with Ki Balls. And normally my enemies have around the same pl as I have. So these fights take on forever with having 500~ HP AND if I fight someone equal and the fight lasts 5 - 10 Minutes without a kill for both sides and then someone jumps in and attacks without warning and steals me my kill .... I just exit the game because this sux badass... and it happend alot of times now. It wouldnt be that bad if the opponent had 300 HP less, then fights are quicker with equals and Noobs can be killed faster :).

Thats also why I dont want the game to be much slower or something, because if these fighst last on forever I want them to be entertaining.

This is the way I see it. If players have 450 health, then it would take awhile of meleeing to kill each other. If it's a back and forth melee fight, and no finisher openings can be created from Stamina loss, then wouldn't it be worth having the fight take 2 minutes to resolve? Wouldn't it be more fun and worthwhile to have a victory result from a longer fight with a skilled player?
Im not sure I understand what ur trying to say here. Could you give it another shot? Might be my lack of english skill.

On the other hand, if it's a one-sided fight and the other person gets their stamina knocked to nothing in the first 20 seconds, then other player can use a Ki attack to finish them off so that these kinds of fights don't take any longer than they should.
The point for me here is that the more HP you have, the more often Stamina will drop to zero in a fight. I just think that it would happen to often if the HP is as high as it is now. It should be like in 1.1 or 1.2.

So in this regard, the extra Health would simply be a feature that allowed better players to fight longer, and nubs to be executed in the coolest way possible.
Or it would be a feature for noobs to survive longer if they are on the run all the time ;D. And with the health regeneration added better players wont have a problem I guess.


On a side note, I don't think SSJ transing should result in a lower Stamina regeneration rate, since it would give Perma-trans characters too much of an advantage. At least the way it is now. Only if they changed it so Stamina damage was based on a fraction of your overall stamina, and transing added the Stamina to your current, would I think this is fair.
Yea, if we are talking about the it is now, then Goku should drop more stamina. At least when he is at SSJ 3. His PL is just too high and so he the one with too much of an advantage over players like piccolo who just have one transformation.

This would work well with Buu's regenerate ability, since you could use both at once so he would regenerate faster out of combat. Boo-yah! :yes:
Well, if that doesnt mean hes regenerating 100 HP in like 5 seconds its fine with me;).
 
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I dont like the 450 HP just because I always use melee in serious battles and hardly attack with Ki Balls. And normally my enemies have around the same pl as I have. So these fights take on forever with having 500~ HP AND if I fight someone equal and the fight lasts 5 - 10 Minutes without a kill for both sides.
There's no way a fight should last 5 or 10 minutes unless you're both sitting there typing to each other. You can chain melee attacks and you can follow up with basic Ki attacks to weaken them further. It doesn't have to just be hits back and forth one at a time.

Thats also why I dont want the game to be much slower or something, because if these fighst last on forever I want them to be entertaining.
If changes were made so Swoop wouldn't be used all the time, I guarentee you the game would be sped up in other ways you couldn't imagine. Teleporting, flying, AND swooping would become the new melee, and that can get pretty intense.

Im not sure I understand what ur trying to say here. Could you give it another shot? Might be my lack of english skill.
I'm saying that if two people are fighting, and neither of them drops to zero stamina, then the fight will go on longer than if they had 150 HP. If one of them drops to no stamina, there will be an opening to possibly end it, as Ki attacks can do massive damage at once. This opening would be a result of melee.

The point for me here is that the more HP you have, the more often Stamina will drop to zero in a fight. I just think that it would happen to often if the HP is as high as it is now. It should be like in 1.1 or 1.2.
That's the primary concern, yes. I'd think there would be ways to balance this though, by either making more maximum stamina, a faster regeneration rate, or making attacks do less stamina damage.

The scenario I picture here is say...

Goku keeps chaining melee attacks on Cell for 20 straight seconds. Cell runs out of stamina, gets knocked to the ground, and now Goku can use his KHH on him to end the fight, assuming his attack his strong enough.

If Cell gets his stamina knocked to nothing, but he's able to block all Swooping attacks on him which would knock him down to the ground, then he will buy himself enough time to recover his stamina so that he can continue fighting again.

Or it would be a feature for noobs to survive longer if they are on the run all the time ;D. And with the health regeneration added better players wont have a problem I guess.
If Swoop was changed so that it was more difficult to run with, by having an initial delay and straighter flight path, and gliding was prevented by this change as well, then I don't see how noobs could run away very well.

I was saying noobs would die just as fast because if you chain enough attacks on them and knock them to the ground without any stamina, you can just finish them off quickly. They'll think twice about interfering in your fights next time.

Yea, if we are talking about the it is now, then Goku should drop more stamina. At least when he is at SSJ 3. His PL is just too high and so he the one with too much of an advantage over players like piccolo who just have one transformation.
Yeah the number of transformations does make a big difference. There are ways to compensate for this though.

You could give Piccolo improved regenerative abilities.

For Krillin, give him faster stamina regeneration so he's harder to keep on the ground and finish off with Ki attacks. You would have to kill him with either melee or weaker Ki attacks, making him appear weaker while actually not being so.

Well, if that doesnt mean hes regenerating 100 HP in like 5 seconds its fine with me;).
Nah, it'd probably be more like a 5 HP per second tick, mixed with a 5 HP per 2 seconds with his ability. So it'd be like 7.5 HP per second x 5 = 37.5.

If players had 300-600 health, then it would take about 40-60 seconds to fully recover this way.

This out of combat type of regeneration would only be useful if it was harder to kill players. Otherwise it has no purpose.
 
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Nah, it'd probably be more like a 5 HP per second tick, mixed with a 5 HP per 2 seconds with his ability. So it'd be like 7.5 HP per second x 5 = 37.5.

If players had 300-600 health, then it would take about 40-60 seconds to fully recover this way.

This out of combat type of regeneration would only be useful if it was harder to kill players. Otherwise it has no purpose.
Not a bad idea but i think its too much ... way to much ... i think it would be better to regen 1 hp per sec at all time .. since fights take so long 5 hp per sec is too much ... even if you make it out of combat only, it will be having players run or hide until they have full hp...

and about the :
If Stamina is empty, or nearly empty, then you won't regenerate Ki.
-Creates opportunities to use Finishers. By the time the downed person regained their Stamina, to then regenerate enough Ki to stand up, the opponent would be ready to blast them. It's easy enough to program too, making it all the better.
Now i think this is a idea to be considered maybie at 30 or less hp :p and you would be able to stand up when the regen pases or reaches 30
 
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Cant argue with you Disguise =þ

Like this idea very much!
 
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I think you've all forgot that the hp was changed but the damage of attacks wasn't. We're going to rescale attack damage to suit the new HP amount, then it won't seem like so much, currently the damage numbers are the same that were before the health increase, so the fights go on for a bit too long. Lets not forget we're going to be adding a few more attacks and stuff that'll improve your arsenal too ;)

Anyway, onto the ideas. The stamina = health regen is a decent idea, but I'm not really sure its needed. Back in the day, I could go onto a server and get 100 kills and 10 deaths, and there were those much better who could get to 200 kills and 0 deaths. I kinda feel that this will only favor the pro's. We're adding another measure of control (stamina), keeping it efficiently managed is going to be quite a hard task, especially since we're trying to come up with many ways that it can be used to improve game play. I do like the idea though, but with the way esf is, I doubt it can work fairly.

No stamina = no ki regen, personally I want more definite effects of stamina exhaustion, but the inability to regen ki is not one of them. Like i said, we're looking into more ways to include stamina, with it already pretty hard work maintaining ki, I wouldnt want to find out my stamina is ****ed, and then have no ki to do anything about it either.
 
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Not a bad idea but i think its too much ... way to much ... i think it would be better to regen 1 hp per sec at all time .. since fights take so long 5 hp per sec is too much ... even if you make it out of combat only, it will be having players run or hide until they have full hp...
I'm not sure if you knew the context of the reply, but it was related to Buu exclusively that the regeneration was so high, because the passive stacked with his ability. I just threw a number out to represent it, having no idea what it really is. The idea is more important than the numbers at this stage, and that's that Buu can regenerate faster out of combat than others can because of his ability, which is currently useless for one reason.

HP regen out of combat is ONLY useful IF the fights last longer, since it adds more value to your health. If damage is being increased in the same proportion as David mentioned, then it's pointless to even give more HP, as the fights will still be just as short. You waste one minute out of combat to regenerate, and then die in 10 seconds from spam and melee.

There is one thing you could do to counter this though. If you add a passive health regeneration based on your level of stamina, then defending will be just as important as attacking. You maintain a higher stamina if you avoid being hit. This results in not only avoiding taking damage, but actually gaining more health on top of that. Thus players who are good at defending will have longer fights.

If players ONLY attack, the fights will be shorter. That way there can be no complaints here, as your fighting style and its success will dictate the length of the fight. Defensive players have the potential to live longer, and offensive players can end the fights faster.

Balanced players will have the best of both, and that is what makes good players great; they're good at every aspect of the game and not just one.

No stamina = no ki regen, personally I want more definite effects of stamina exhaustion, but the inability to regen ki is not one of them. Like i said, we're looking into more ways to include stamina, with it already pretty hard work maintaining ki, I wouldnt want to find out my stamina is ****ed, and then have no ki to do anything about it either.
True, I could see how this could create more problems. You might be stuck with no stamina for awhile, and the opponent would have more of an offensive advantage over you. I'd be interested in knowing what stamina exhaustion effects you've already considered, but I'm not privy to that.

So I'll simply suggest this then:

Increase the rate of Ki Regeneration based on stamina, don't decrease it. Then increase the Ki cost of standing up once you're knocked onto the ground. This way the lower you get on stamina, the more costly it becomes relatively to stand up again.

When you first get knocked down it hardly matters. Even if you have no Ki, but you have full stamina, you can still get up quickly. But the more stamina you lose, the more costly it becomes to stand up again. Eventually, if you get knocked down and you don't have enough Ki to stand, you're vulnerable to be attacked.

The difference with this idea is that you always have some Ki available, just not as much as your opponent. If you regen no Ki, you'll be at a state of no Ki more often than not, which you're right, David, would suck.

I think Ki Regen manipulation is the best way to reflect exhaustion and to make good use of the Stamina feature. The thing is it works both ways here. If both players are lower on stamina during the fight, both of them will slow down. If one overpowers the other, the other will have to play more defensively to recoup their stamina.

In this effect, it creates roles where players need to change their fighting styles and adapt to circumstances; One becomes the attacker, the other becomes the defender.

Currently, if you're low on Ki, your best bet to regenerate ki is to score a hit and recharge in between. There's no incentive to playing defensively here, and thus it's always the same type of fighting. With Stamina dictating Ki Regen, instead of constantly charging your opponent and regenerating in between, you have to focus on defending yourself now, because in the long run, Stamina becomes the best way to recover.
 
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I just wanted to say, the damage scale will be changed, but not to how it was before-hand, the reason it was changed was so we could have a greater difference in damage, instead of a huge jump between melee and beams. Previously the melee involved a lot of time spent in engaging the enemy doing consistent small damage, beams were powerful enough to sit back and take out 10 people at a time. We also did want fights to last longer, but a bit less than they do currently, I definitely realised this playing on pub servers of the OB, sometimes you're fighting a really good player for a good 5 mins, then ESFnoob comes along with 1 melee hit and takes your kill or kills you, or mid fight you get hit across the map and lose sight of your target in the fray. If you're good players in the OB you can have really long fights, since good players don't often get hit.

We're currently looking into giving defensive characters more defensive abilities, and we're also looking to promote the use of beams with beam orientated characters. Your idea is pretty good for encouraging a defensive play, however it conflicts somewhat with our idea's, in particular the way we're heading towards with melee. What I really like is the idea of having recovery ki costs linked to the players stamina, that makes sense.

What I'm not fond of is this knockout idea, or health regen, I think having these is just over complicating things.
 
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I just wanted to say, the damage scale will be changed, but not to how it was before-hand, the reason it was changed was so we could have a greater difference in damage, instead of a huge jump between melee and beams. Previously the melee involved a lot of time spent in engaging the enemy doing consistent small damage, beams were powerful enough to sit back and take out 10 people at a time. We also did want fights to last longer, but a bit less than they do currently, I definitely realised this playing on pub servers of the OB, sometimes you're fighting a really good player for a good 5 mins, then ESFnoob comes along with 1 melee hit and takes your kill or kills you, or mid fight you get hit across the map and lose sight of your target in the fray. If you're good players in the OB you can have really long fights, since good players don't often get hit.

We're currently looking into giving defensive characters more defensive abilities, and we're also looking to promote the use of beams with beam orientated characters. Your idea is pretty good for encouraging a defensive play, however it conflicts somewhat with our idea's, in particular the way we're heading towards with melee. What I really like is the idea of having recovery ki costs linked to the players stamina, that makes sense.

What I'm not fond of is this knockout idea, or health regen, I think having these is just over complicating things.
Yeah the health regen was assuming that the damage scale hadn't changed. It would've just acted as a way to make the fights take longer if players were able to play defensively well enough. You know, you block 10 attacks, and in that time, you regenerate 40 health. Something to that effect.

The knockout idea wouldn't have to occur as often as you'd think. It's just a possibility. Like right now if a player ran out of Ki and you hit them to the ground, and you just happened to know this and charge a beam. It's comparative to that, except you're more aware of it and managing their Stamina in a way, so you're able to prepare ahead of time.

I wish I knew a bit more about what you're doing with melee. I'm sure we'd be on the same page with a lot of our ideas.
 

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