Ki Bar rebalance

[hleV]

WTF? In that case your non-turbo swoop speed would be the same in every form. It might make sense though, but it seems strange to me.

 

[Disguise]

Well we're talking about swoop speeds now instead of Ki regeneration, so I just want it to be stated that we're on a new topic now in the same thread. Dual discussions here lol.


Non Turbo - PL base depending on form. Base swoop speeds, maybe slightly increasing with form.

More swooping is needed to cover same distance, thus more relative Ki consumed, but more Ki readily available.


Turbo - PL increases. Speeds increase depending on form.

Less swooping needed to cover same distance, thus less relative Ki consumed, but less available.


Charged Turbo - PL increases more. Speeds increase more.

Even less swooping needed to cover same distance, thus less relative Ki consumed, but much less available.

 

[Grega]

From that last part i get a feeling you are overly complicating the existing system.

The KI drain on swoop is determined by time. Meaning the swoop speed/distance is related directly to the speed.

Its allready like that in 1.2 Hence why slower chars end up using more KI for swoop than the faster chars.

With turbo you have a bigger swoop speed and you cover more distance in the same time. But you have the additional KI drain caused by turbo to worry about.

 

[Disguise]

Yeah that's the point I was making about swoop speeds related to Ki drain. It supports the concept that a Non-Turbo state should regenerate Ki faster, since you need more to swoop.

Non-Turbo, you conserve more Ki and regenerate it faster. Turbo, it evens out or reduces regen rate, and Charged Turbo, it drains Ki. The rewards are having swoop become more powerful.

Non-Turbo / Turbo / Charged Turbo
Conservative / Neutral / Aggressive
Same speeds / Faster / Fastest
Low damage / Average damage / Most damage
Most Ki to defend with / Average Ki to defend with / Little Ki to defend with

Why not make Turbo the average stance? You get a cool aura. It also signals spectators on what's happening with the fight. Someone charges Turbo, they're about to let loose. Someone turns off Turbo, they're about to play defensively.

It adds more depth to the stamina bar as well. If you lose your stamina, you can't use Turbo, so you must play defensively. It flows well with and adds to what's already being considered.

On top of that, you allow some flexibility, so players can recharge while fighting at the same time, so they don't have to vulnerable. In DBZ, do you ever see someone getting hit because they had to stop to recharge their Ki? If anything, their aura turns off and they block attacks.

 

[hleV]

IMO Turbo should be turned off by default. In series, characters fight melee without Turbo most of the time, in order to save energy (I guess). Then sometimes they turn on (and possibly charge) Turbo to deal more damage.

 

[Grega]

Yeah that's the point I was making about swoop speeds related to Ki drain. It supports the concept that a Non-Turbo state should regenerate Ki faster, since you need more to swoop.

Non-Turbo, you conserve more Ki and regenerate it faster. Turbo, it evens out or reduces regen rate, and Charged Turbo, it drains Ki. The rewards are having swoop become more powerful.

Non-Turbo / Turbo / Charged Turbo
Conservative / Neutral / Aggressive
Same speeds / Faster / Fastest
Low damage / Average damage / Most damage
Most Ki to defend with / Average Ki to defend with / Little Ki to defend with

Why not make Turbo the average stance? You get a cool aura. It also signals spectators on what's happening with the fight. Someone charges Turbo, they're about to let loose. Someone turns off Turbo, they're about to play defensively.

It adds more depth to the stamina bar as well. If you lose your stamina, you can't use Turbo, so you must play defensively. It flows well with and adds to what's already being considered.

On top of that, you allow some flexibility, so players can recharge while fighting at the same time, so they don't have to vulnerable. In DBZ, do you ever see someone getting hit because they had to stop to recharge their Ki? If anything, their aura turns off and they block attacks.

Again in the anime loosing your KI ment death. Since thats bad for gameplay the solution is of a recharge KI button and leave the death to HP. So you cant compare it to DBZ in this matter. Not for ESF and not for any other DBZ game out there. They all make this flaw for gameplays sake.

With that said. Try this. Run round and rest at the same time. Cause thats what you are suggesting with the low state idea. Not only does it contradict logic. It allso leaves a big exploit open with what the pros will gain a bigger advantage over the new playes simply because the prose can take some time killing them. But THX to the broken KI Management of the state it would end up in a limitless KI supply. Thas allready seen in the SSJ state of 1.2.

You dont need to worry about your KI anymore. You probably wont run out. That removes a vital part of gameplay from the game. Which is why most regulars disslike the SSJ state.

 

[hleV]

In SSJ form your Ki should drain faster or take longer to recharge IMO, leaving the form harder to play.

 

[Grega]

In SSJ form your Ki should drain faster or take longer to recharge IMO, leaving the form harder to play.

That was an example from a similar state. Check the open beta and fight staying SSJ3 all the time if you can XD

 

[Disguise]

Again in the anime loosing your KI ment death. Since thats bad for gameplay the solution is of a recharge KI button and leave the death to HP. So you cant compare it to DBZ in this matter. Not for ESF and not for any other DBZ game out there. They all make this flaw for gameplays sake.

With that said. Try this. Run round and rest at the same time. Cause thats what you are suggesting with the low state idea. Not only does it contradict logic. It allso leaves a big exploit open with what the pros will gain a bigger advantage over the new playes simply because the prose can take some time killing them. But THX to the broken KI Management of the state it would end up in a limitless KI supply. Thas allready seen in the SSJ state of 1.2.

You dont need to worry about your KI anymore. You probably wont run out. That removes a vital part of gameplay from the game. Which is why most regulars disslike the SSJ state.

I don't think I can discuss what Ki is and is not in the series, but I do know what it is and is not in ESF. Ki in ESF is like action points.

Ki in ESF is like the relationship between Power and Recovery. More power, longer recovery time. It's like the same concept behind using 2H weapons and daggers. More damage, longer recovery time. Less damage, less recovery time.

Non-Turbo is like a dagger, Turbo is like a sword, and Charged Turbo is like a 2H axe. Ki is the cooldown between uses. The Recharge Key is like the delay after the attack which you can allocate to any part of the fight.

I'm saying if a person has a dagger, let them stab you until their arm falls/gets chopped off. If they have a sword, let them swing it carefully or take short pauses in between. If they have a giant axe, they better not miss.

This concept applies to everything. Faster and stronger swoop, more time to recover. KHH, longer recovery time. Generic Blast, less recovery time. Etc.


Most regulars dislike SSJ because the swoop speeds are too fast. It's harder to hit the other players as a result. That's why I think swoop speeds should vary with the use of Turbo and Charged Turbo, but remain constant with a Non-Turbo. Ki management is also an important part of the game play that's lost, yes.

That's where I think the stamina bar should come into play. I think Transforming should make you take more stamina damage, but give you more maximum stamina to use. What this does is... more mobility and a greater ability to take hits (power), but a longer recovery time, as stamina regeneration would stay a fixed value. The higher a player Transforms, the more vulnerable he is to dropping out of it when he's attacked. Players who transform would need to play more aggressively and/or get hit less often.

You could still drain some Ki too through Transformations, but because stamina vulnerability is increased, you wouldn't have to drain it as badly. Players in SSJ3 might then have to fight with Non-Turbo to offset it and time Turbo correctly to make better use of it. Either way if they're hit a few times in SSJ3, they might have to fall into SSJ1 or 2.

If SSJ3 charged Turbo, he'd be incredibly powerful, but it'd be more difficult to maintain than say Kaioken. And wouldn't it be annoying if you went SSJ3 and you ALWAYS had to recharge every 2 seconds? Even though it'd be more difficult to maintain your Ki, you could still manage to by not using Turbo. That would also balance the PL gain through transformations, encouraging higher Transformations to fight without Turbo or Charged Turbo.

Transformations increase the differences in power between Non-Turbo, Turbo, and Charged Turbo, but the consequences are increased as well. More power, longer recovery all around the board.

EDIT
The effect this has on game play is say SSJ3 Goku is a pro. He's attacking a noob who is untransformed. Because the pro has to pause longer after attacking to recover his Ki, the Noob has more breaks in between. The noob also never runs out of Ki if he doesn't use Turbo, so he's ALWAYS able to respond to the pro, even if he doesn't do very well. This will allow him to learn the game faster. He'll soon realize that without Turbo, he won't get very many kills. This gives an incentive to become more efficient with Ki and find ways to land attacks.

The pro aspect of the game comes with timing the use of Turbo and Charged Turbo correctly and avoiding hits. Angle hits are obviously preferred too.

Also consider that if Blocking and Instant Recovery only consumed Ki, then it'd be easier to protect yourself on defense than on offense.

Summary

Ki and Swoop Speeds can be managed by Non-Turbo, Turbo, and Charged Turbo

Stamina can be managed by Ascending/Descending

If you run out of Ki, you have to recharge it by either turning off Turbo or recharging while under Turbo. If you turn off Turbo, you lose your Charge.

If you're low on stamina, you can't use Turbo or Teleport, reducing you to base swoop speeds and an overabundance of Ki. If you completely run out of stamina, you're vulnerable to a long knockdown. Thus if you stay Transformed while low on stamina, you're taking a big risk.​

That last part I threw in there from former suggestions.