Ki Bar rebalance

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I haven't thought about it too much... yet. But if Turbo was regular combat, and Charged Turbo was offensive combat, maybe not using Turbo could be a defensive/conservative combat.

Ki could regenerate more quickly without Turbo. That way you could either have Turbo on and need to stop to recharge, or you could turn Turbo off and continue fighting and let it regenerate naturally. This would give options, depending if the player was coming after you or not, for recharging during or between fighting.

This flows well with the concepts in mind. If you use Turbo and you're landing hits, you have time to recharge. Because you have to recharge, you can't just spam Ki attacks after every hit either, unless you're confident you'll land the next hit so you can recharge.

If the player being hit doesn't pressure the person overpowering them with Turbo, then they'll be getting hit constantly with Ki attacks in between hits. It encourages the defender to counter-attack more quickly.

I know this is one thought that influences every aspect of the game previously considered. If done right though, I think it might allow combat to be continuous and making it less repetitive. You've got options, you don't HAVE to sit there and be vulnerable while you recharge. You can recharge and defend yourself at the same time.
 
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I like the idea.
 
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So you are saying that turbo = no KI regeneration and no turbo = KI regeneration

Cause if thats what you are saying then its like that since like the alphas o_O
 
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I don't think it's about swooping.

In DBZ, people usually fight without Turbo. I guess it's because of the energy/stamina drain. But there are moments when they actually use the turbo and the fight then becomes more intense. Not even talking about the charged Turbo.
 
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No, im preety positive he is talking about swoop consumption.
 
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Well I don't mean reduce the consumption of moves that use Ki directly. I mean more so increase the regeneration rate while not using Turbo.

And yeah maybe it's been in effect, but the recovery rate without turbo is comparable to that of what flying consumes. I'm talking about it regenerating more quickly, like fully over 10 seconds give or take.

The regeneration may offset a portion of the Ki that swoop consumes, allowing you to swoop more, but not as fast and with less power.

Btw, I'm not saying... New Ki Bar system. I'm saying Ki Bar rebalance, meaning we tweak what's already there.


On a side note, maybe remove flying consumption, since it just discourages beam struggles in the air, and that's about it.
 
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Well I don't mean reduce the consumption of moves that use Ki directly. I mean more so increase the regeneration rate while not using Turbo.

And yeah maybe it's been in effect, but the recovery rate without turbo is comparable to that of what flying consumes. I'm talking about it regenerating more quickly, like fully over 10 seconds give or take.

The regeneration may offset a portion of the Ki that swoop consumes, allowing you to swoop more, but not as fast and with less power.

Btw, I'm not saying... New Ki Bar system. I'm saying Ki Bar rebalance, meaning we tweak what's already there.
The recharge allready covers that. Your idea would only lead to endless Power Struggles, cause the KI would recharge by the time you need to make the second pump.

If you are using turbo you need a longer time to recharge your KI with the recharge button. Thats the tradeoff you do when you use turbo. It eats away at your KI while you recharge. So a guy with turbo on will recharge his bar slower than the guy without turbo.


On a side note, maybe remove flying consumption, since it just discourages beam struggles in the air, and that's about it.
I think the last open beta has that in allready. In any case its allready as you said.
 
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So turbo no longer turns off when you're charging?
 
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Thats the plan ^^

Turbo is a state that drains more KI for the PL/speed benefit.
 
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The recharge allready covers that. Your idea would only lead to endless Power Struggles, cause the KI would recharge by the time you need to make the second pump.

If you are using turbo you need a longer time to recharge your KI with the recharge button. Thats the tradeoff you do when you use turbo. It eats away at your KI while you recharge. So a guy with turbo on will recharge his bar slower than the guy without turbo.

I think the last open beta has that in allready. In any case its allready as you said.
I know that simply adjusting a non-turbo state would create unbalances like you just mentioned. I never considered it'd be an easy idea to work out. But imo, the benefit of fighting without having to recharge makes it worth considering. The disadvantage would be doing less HP/stamina damage, so fighting without Turbo would be a temporary stance.

There's a few things you could do to rebalance it:
  1. Make entering a beam struggle drain Ki over time to offset part of the Ki regenerated from not using Turbo.
  2. Allow Turbo a greater immediate effect on the struggle. More Ki per second could be charged into the pump, speeding up the process. In exchange, you sacrifice Ki efficiency by reducing your regeneration.
This would be useful if the beam was near the opponent and you wanted to push it over the edge quickly. Ki Pumps wouldn't always be timed perfectly, so it would be less predictable.

Currently the player who has the advantage will always want to max charge his pumps, thus making them always have the same effect on the beam and always be timed evenly throughout. If Turbo pumped more Ki into the charge, thus speeding it up, it would be less predictable and less Ki conservative, especially with this base regeneration in effect.​

I'll come up with more later. Gotta go!
 
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Currently the player who has the advantage will always want to max charge his pumps, thus making them always have the same effect on the beam and always be timed evenly throughout.
Ahh but thats where the strategy of a PS comes into play. Noone ever said deflecting it near you was the best strategy ^^


Though as far as i understand you. YOu basically want to switch the terms round. Instead of a powerd up state you want a powerd down state.

Meaning turbo would be like normal current state and the nonturbo state would be a powered down state where your KI regeneration is faster. Though with the recharge button i see little point in that.

Not to mention if this really is your idea i say why bohther inverting the perfectly good system thats in allready.

Just looking at it from a logical point of view. Doing stuff takes energy so in normal state you loose energy. Turbo on the other hand is a powered up state where you directly convert some energy to power providing you with more force behind the punch but at the cost of constant energy drain.

The state of regaining energy is preety much not logical. Since for that youd have to stop doing the stuff that costs power to do. Basically youd need to rest to achive the state i think you are suggesting.
 
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Ahh but thats where the strategy of a PS comes into play. Noone ever said deflecting it near you was the best strategy ^^


Though as far as i understand you. YOu basically want to switch the terms round. Instead of a powerd up state you want a powerd down state.

Meaning turbo would be like normal current state and the nonturbo state would be a powered down state where your KI regeneration is faster. Though with the recharge button i see little point in that.

Not to mention if this really is your idea i say why bohther inverting the perfectly good system thats in allready.

Just looking at it from a logical point of view. Doing stuff takes energy so in normal state you loose energy. Turbo on the other hand is a powered up state where you directly convert some energy to power providing you with more force behind the punch but at the cost of constant energy drain.

The state of regaining energy is preety much not logical. Since for that youd have to stop doing the stuff that costs power to do. Basically youd need to rest to achive the state i think you are suggesting.
In real-life logic it makes no sense, yes. But in RL, turbo doesn't exist either does it?
... I wish it did. :cry:

In DBZ theory, when they're fighting to warm up, they fight without an aura, and neither ever get tired. When they get more serious, they have an aura, but they still don't get tired from just melee. When they charge up, the result from fighting is fatigue.
So with DBZ logic in mind, players could spar constantly without turbo, making the fight take longer and always be continuous.

When they fight seriously, they throw on turbo so they're faster and deal more damage, where it takes awhile for fatigue to settle in.

When they fight to kill them on the spot, they charge turbo so their speed catches the opponent off guard, and so their hits deal greater damage, but shortly after, extreme fatigue kicks in.​


These concepts can relate to stamina, sure. But I'm talking specifically where you're low on Ki and the other player starts hitting you around. If you have no time to recharge your Ki, you'll never be able to defend yourself OR counter attack.

I've talked before about the worth of stamina currently being considered with Sub. I think we both agreed that it's confusing to have two short-term systems in place that you need to constantly monitor. It's also pointless to have stamina under a short-term system, since Ki has the same effect already. To jump a few steps ahead of myself here, I guess what I'm thinking is that Ki management should be replaced by Stamina management.

You'd need to be aware of both though, but managing Ki could be done by simply turning off Turbo. Stamina could be more long-term and need to be watched more closely. I think this would allow combat to flow more freely while still keeping the consequences of poor management.

EDIT: With low stamina, you can't use Turbo, so you're forced to play defensively. This gives the opponent full authority to charge Turbo and press the attack without fear of being countered. This syncs well with the ideas currently in place and a few I've previously mentioned, though I think this is taking it a step in the right direction.
 
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Ahh but in DBZ logic KI = Stamina = life energy. Not really HP but close to it. Using up KI ment getting them tired. Using attacks from that point on ment death. The perfect example are the Tribeam and Mafuba techniques. They used ul all of the persons KI if not controlled which lead to the death of the user.

As for using up KI. Need i remind you that Goku was tired after only flying a bit over the snake road. He literaly wasted hjis energy by flying.

I still see little point to your idea. Especially since this would eliminate one of the key aspects of the game. Namely KI controll. Since if you are good enough youll simply use the popwered down mode to eat away at the other guys HP while hes wasting his KI trying to get you with turbo. Evading people in ESF is just that easy im afraid.
 
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I don't think turbo should actually drain KI cos in DBz when Goku and Vegeta fought Kid Buu, Vegeta at one moment was coming out of a crater made with his body hitting the ground and even though he was beaten and most of his bones were probably broken he still managed to become a ssj (probably ssj2 too) and had his "turbo" aura, or something like that on. So, I say much more health, less power level consumption = much more fun.
 
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As i said in DBZ KI = Stamina = Life energy.

Not to mention at the end of the series they had an insane amount of energy. Where at the start a couple of beam attacks was enough to tire them.
 
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They turn on the turbo to have more power. But it's still draining more Ki.
 
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Ahh but in DBZ logic KI = Stamina = life energy. Not really HP but close to it. Using up KI ment getting them tired. Using attacks from that point on ment death. The perfect example are the Tribeam and Mafuba techniques. They used ul all of the persons KI if not controlled which lead to the death of the user.

As for using up KI. Need i remind you that Goku was tired after only flying a bit over the snake road. He literaly wasted hjis energy by flying.

I still see little point to your idea. Especially since this would eliminate one of the key aspects of the game. Namely KI controll. Since if you are good enough youll simply use the popwered down mode to eat away at the other guys HP while hes wasting his KI trying to get you with turbo. Evading people in ESF is just that easy im afraid.
Yeah but wasn't he flying like a bajillion miles? That'll wear anyone down over time.


The ideas for Ki and Stamina are both interchangeable. So what's the differences? Can I swoop with stamina? No, I can only swoop with Ki. Can I use Turbo with low stamina? No I can only fight in a weakened state.

Ki is like action points, Stamina is essentially only consequence of overextending yourself. They both cover two exact opposites of the same idea. Ki is like the positive side of stamina, stamina is like the negative side of using too much.

That's why I think Ki should vary depending on how intensely you're using it. If you're very offensive, you have less of it and it needs to be recharged. If you're overly offensive, stamina suffers and you take on a consequence from it. Thus stamina is more important to manage than Ki.

Chip away is the word for it. Without Turbo damage can be lowered, aside from the PL. Besides, if the player was that good though where they could always hit the other player, why wouldn't they charge Turbo and make those hits count? Why extend it? If anything, he's doing the other player a favor, and it becomes valuable training for them, thus allowing pros to fight noobs on top of it with courtesy. The other player would be equally stupid for using a charged Turbo against an opponent who's obviously better than him.

EDIT: Oh, and if non-Turbo had the same universal swoop speed under every Transformation and Character, then you could allow Turbo to add varying amounts to that speed, and Charged Turbo to vary it more on top of it. For example, Kid Buu would have the most speed from a charged Turbo.
 
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Swoop speed is a form variable. It changes depending on form.

Turbo swoop speed is swoop speed + constant.

So turbo allows you to swoop faster and be stronger at the cost of KI.
 
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Swoop speed is a form variable. It changes depending on form.

Turbo swoop speed is swoop speed + constant.

So turbo allows you to swoop faster and be stronger at the cost of KI.
Yeah maybe it should be the other way around.
Swoop speed is a constant.

Turbo swoop speed is a form variable. It changes depending on form.

So turbo allows you to swoop faster and be stronger at the cost of KI (still the same).​
 

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