Insta-Counter: It must change. Period.

[Snow]

Right before you go to meele hit the teleprt button back and right after you hit them you will tele back. It work I do it some of the BEST players in ESF *cough* Groovy *cough*. LOL it will work.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

There are two kinds of "cheap-ass" counters with melee right now. The first is the one I use most often, where the blow connects before the person swooping does. The second is what happens if you hit the melee key a split second too late, and the attack follows the opponent out of the hit range. Here's what I mean:

1. Someone hits me as I let go of block and hit melee.
2. They teleport out of melee range while I keep melee held down.
3. They take the hit from their new location, out of my hit range.

I see this happen on my computer, when I'm doing it. If it was latency I should see it connect while he should first see himself teleport away, though I guess it wont work that way until client side hit detection is in. I fear that client side, though, will only make it worse on the attacker, particularly against high ping players, who will be able to register hits as much as a second after the attacker has moved away.

Regardless, this safety net only makes the original counter more dangerous, as it adds more time to potentially knock someone away from you, and it's easily abused. There should be, at the very least, some kind of stun just after taking a hit while blocking. Either something that would freeze blocking for just under a second, or disable attacking for a moment after connection. Counters are great and all, but they need to be made much more difficult to reproduce.

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

I very distinctly recall reading somewhere when Beta1 first was released that hitting a blocker in melee was supposed to result in some sort of slight delay, like you said, Sonic.

The counter where it's not a counter at all but a pre-emptive attack is for the most part impregnable, because any offensive player dives for you and any player with even the smallest bit of skill can be facing you quickly enough to perform the move.

Why is it unfair? Because the hit on the swooper/aggressor's end literally never even happens. I have a mind to think they didn't INTEND to make it this way. It is an exploit, I'm almost certain of it.

Why would they make a way to do this on purpose? it totally defeats the point of having a swoop and a lock and all of that. The guys who "own everyone" and think they are incredible and talk all this big 5 on 1 clan challenge game...they couldn't probably handle 2 medium players or even 1 good one without that instant counter.

I'm going to stop calling it "instant counter" in fact because it's not instant. It's EVEN LESS THAN INSTANT. We'll call it "the pre-counter."

And it's obviously a balancing issue. because if we all learned this technique, it would virtually eliminate the melee system's point(s) for existing in the first place.

I just want to know if it's an exploit or if the team's going to fix it in the next release.

I'm pretty positive it's an exploit, though; countering is one thing but it DEFINITELY isn't a fair version when it's countering me before I've even made contact.

You know how you can tell? When a guy blocks you and you get countered, it's like... a respect thing, like I usually might say something like "nice one" or "damn thought I had you," you know? And it's all fun. Then that pre-emptive counter comes in, and it's not fair at all; it rewards my aggressive assaults with being flung away and a hefty amount of damage, and the other guy DOESN'T EVEN FEEL MY ATTACK. If players begin to get good at this and it becomes very common (which it is, slowly but surely), then what's the point of even swooping other than to run away faster? Swooping at any player who knows this move is almost certain death, unless he's bored enough to not use the "technique" and have a longer, more interesting battle.

I just really feel it needs to be fixed. I know it feels good to dominate other players, but it's just not right, and I really think it should be fixed by beta 1.1.

 

[Morrone]

If your countered by a block its ur own fault. As V has said you can easily dodge the counter attack. Just tele instantly after hit. I do it to blockers all the time. The stupid ones just keep holding block and I teleport, hit, teleport, hit, teleport, hit. They must not realize eventhough they block they still take damage.

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

Alright, that's it.

FOR ALL YOU DUMB *******S WHO ARE NOT ****ING GETTING THIS. THERE IS BLOCKING AND COUNTERING, AND THEN THERE IS THE THING I'M TALKING ABOUT WHERE YOU GET HIT BEFORE THE GUY EVEN BLOCKS YOU, ALMOST EVERY SINGLE TIME, WITHOUT EVEN COMING FULLY INTO COUNTERING RANGE!!

I HIT PLAYERS WHO BLOCK AND COUNTER ALL THE TIME AND GET OUT OF IT FINE, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT!! I TELEPORT ALL THE TIME AND LIKE EVERYONE SOMETIMES I GET AWAY AND SOMETIMES I DON'T!!! WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IS NOT ME BEING NOOBISH AND DIVING HEADFIRST AT A GUY WHO'S HOLDING BLOCK AND THEN *****ING ABOUT HOW HE GETS TO HAVE A CHANCE TO HIT ME BACK CAUSE HE BLOCKED ME AND I'M TOO GOD DAMNED SLOW TO GET OUT OF THE WAY IN TIME. THAT IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IS WHEN I SWOOP A GUY, HE DOESN'T EVEN VISIBIBLY BLOCK, AND I'M FLYING AWAY EVEN BEFORE THE INITIAL IMPACT!!

UGGHH!! Read more carefully next time, will you all...?

 

[Morrone]

Actually I've done that many a time. I let go of block early and right click and I hit the guy beofre he even hits me. Nothing you can do about it. Its just good timing.

 

[Son Gokou]

Morrone's right, like the person who started this thread, the first post, I remember him saying "good players don't use this technique"-well, I don't, but that's me...any way, you just need to learn how to teleport quickly, catch them off guard...melee isn't always the conclusion, you can blast them, or you can power up, even though you are fully charged, as they will think you ran out of energy because of your teleportation and melee. When they approach you, make your move. That's all I can tell you.

 

[keiryn]

There is nothing wrong with insta-counter. As my doctor once said, if it hurts, don't do it. If a player continually counters you when you try to melee them, then stop trying to melee them. Use a solar flare, disk, or explode a beam in front of them. Many people who I play with can figure this out on their own, but the majority of people can't seem to figure it out. Someone above said "good players don't use this technique", well here is another saying "only stupid players fall for this technique". In order to be a "good" player, you have to well rounded in your abilities. You have to be good at melee, good at block-counter, good at beams and various other techniques. If you are only good at melee then you're the player who is a 'Noob'. If someone is constantly meleeing people, that is just as cheap as someone who keeps block-countering people. There is a large enough variety of attacks in ESF that you can kill a player without using melee.

Expand your arsenal of attacks, don't whine on the boards.

 

[Mister Satan]

ya try using everything-whever it be chessey(hehehe) or not

P.S is my sig working?

 

[Snow]

Sig is nice

Meele is okay for me.

P.S. how did you get the animation like that PM with details if you wanna tell.

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

I'm not whining. It's not like every time I play I get decimated by this stupid move. I never even said that I lose to it often!

It just so happens that when I fight someone in a melee battle that uses this move, my melee attacks are rendered not only useless but self destructive! The game CAN'T be designed that way, is all I wanted to say, and it's obviously an exploit of a portion of the system.

Just because it's accepted doesn't mean it was intended as a regular fighting tactic!

And of course you're all going to tell me I'm whining; try playing some day without that counter trick and see what a dramatic difference it actually DOES make.

And for your information, buddy, I happen to be the only ******* I've ever even seen bother to switch to a beam attack that WASN'T the kamehameha and WASN'T being shot from a safe unnoticed position in the corner of the map at full blast.

What do youy think I do, get owned by this dumb block-glitch and just keep doing it? The onyl reason why I continue to fight anyone with melee if they're doing it is to work on practicing getting around it, duh!

I'm not whining, I just think that it's fairly obvious it's a mistake. Just because you rely on it to play doesn't mean it was supposed to be there.

I just think countering ought to be...well a little trickier, don't you think? it's awful easy to feign vulnerability to get a guy to dive at you, and then pound him with a counter (and with this technique, you don't even have to go through the trouble of losing the bit of health you would if the meleer actually hit you and THEN got countered).

This is all probably a moot point anyhow. I bet melee struggles will erase this issue anyhow.

 

[Morrone]

Trickier hahaha. Its not our fault you dont have any technique. Thats what I tell people that I'm better than. Sometimes they tell me I script. Other times they say, "whats your trick?" and other times its just "damn your good." Melee isnt all about speed and reflexes. I happen to be lacking in those two departments. When I'm beaten its usually cuz I actually miss melee attacks or my reflexes are too slow. What i use to balance my weaknesses is technique.

When Gohan was fighting Dabura, Goku and Vegeta were talking about how he had lost his fighting sense over the years. That Gohan didnt understand that Dabura couldnt be beaten by head on attacks.

Most, no, ALL good players aren't going to be beaten by head on attacks. You have to use technique and strategy to win. Beating a guy by constantly bumping heads with him and you have the lower ping advantage isnt how your suppose to play it. I'm not going to tell you all the techniques I use not only because there are far too many to name but because everyone has their own.

Dont just expect left-right clicking on an opponent and being sprung forward going to win you battles. If your opponent is just sitting there while your charging him hes obviously up to something. He'll either block, teleport, or charge you at the last insant. Dont expect him, "to roll over and die from an attack like that".

Use your head. When something isnt going your way dont just give up and rub your aggression off ont he forums. Becuz in most situations theres a way around it. There are few things in ESF that are unbalanced. Grant it there are some but something like block countering isnt one of them becuz everyone has access to it. You cabn block counter too. When I melee hit someone I ALWAYS teleport in the best direciton my brain can think of in a milisecond, no matter what the outcome. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Snow]

Originally posted by Morrone
Trickier hahaha. Its not our fault you dont have any technique. Thats what I tell people that I'm better than. Sometimes they tell me I script. Other times they say, "whats your trick?" and other times its just "damn your good." Melee isnt all about speed and reflexes. I happen to be lacking in those two departments. When I'm beaten its usually cuz I actually miss melee attacks or my reflexes are too slow. What i use to balance my weaknesses is technique.

When Gohan was fighting Dabura, Goku and Vegeta were talking about how he had lost his fighting sense over the years. That Gohan didnt understand that Dabura couldnt be beaten by head on attacks.

Most, no, ALL good players aren't going to be beaten by head on attacks. You have to use technique and strategy to win. Beating a guy by constantly bumping heads with him and you have the lower ping advantage isnt how your suppose to play it. I'm not going to tell you all the techniques I use not only because there are far too many to name but because everyone has their own.

Dont just expect left-right clicking on an opponent and being sprung forward going to win you battles. If your opponent is just sitting there while your charging him hes obviously up to something. He'll either block, teleport, or charge you at the last insant. Dont expect him, "to roll over and die from an attack like that".

Use your head. When something isnt going your way dont just give up and rub your aggression off ont he forums. Becuz in most situations theres a way around it. There are few things in ESF that are unbalanced. Grant it there are some but something like block countering isnt one of them becuz everyone has access to it. You cabn block counter too. When I melee hit someone I ALWAYS teleport in the best direciton my brain can think of in a milisecond, no matter what the outcome. Better safe than sorry.

Really if I were like that I would have spammed these fourms a million times over. when ever I go tto my clan server I get OWNED by our leader GROOVY. I dont say anything just that I will learn to get arond it and get better thats all you have to do just be patince you will learn a way to beat it.

 

[MR GUMP!!]

Block counter does not need to change at all, and the tele back then tele forward thing is easy to dodge. Insta counter is not really an insta counter more like a very well timed counter, depending on the ping u let go just as they hit you and because of the lag it takes about .1 second to stop block and counter (100 ping). If you wana catch some one off guard who is blocking, tele atack then tele back so they cannot counter.

About the tele back when some one swoops, at you, not the best of tactics because... Many people will just start blocking when you do this and your counter turns into thier counter....... Though in many situations it works well

My 2 cents

It just so happens that when I fight someone in a melee battle that uses this move, my melee attacks are rendered not only useless but self destructive! The game CAN'T be designed that way, is all I wanted to say, and it's obviously an exploit of a portion of the system.

Ok about this...... Martial Arts is allot about turning some ones offenceing into your own offence.... Exploit? dont think so, call it timing, (skill, said yourself best players use it)

 

[Lone Wolf]

im a n00b... ive played for a couple of days..... but when my cousin and friends try this move on my... i dodge..

when you click once... you lock on, click again, you charge at them, click the same button again, you stop.....
just stop infront of them and teleport to the side or below or back...... you know what i mean, then charge at em and melee...... its not that hard....

 

[Code_Blood_Red]

i somewhat agree I am a very good player at this game in my opinion but this is the one technique i cannot do well at all HOWEVER i can get past it and trick the blocker out and once i do that i knock him. but some players are even BETTER then that and can keep their sights on you till you cna't tport no more. all in all i think it's a good technique and shouldn't be changed to me any diffuiculty is not a difficulty at all: it's a challenge.

 

[Snow]

Then you should stand infront of them and charge a powerful beam at them or SB whil it is charging the will attach then you coumter and kill them. That works for me.

 

[Xenogias]

Its really annoying going up against Hsu.
But ever since I defeated Nightshades Hsu never replies when
I tell him "Want to 1on1"? I pretty much got over the entier
Block/Counter thing cause its too easy to evade now. But what
gets annoying is when I cant teleport away because the other
player has low ping and I have high ping, delaying the action
I wanted to perform (Sometimes my player has performed teleportation
while flying back, wasting me even more ki).

And its a pain cause if your not transformed and you gain balance
in mid air that really takes out alot of ki. What I do is sacrifice
Health sometimes instead of ki by removing my characters ability
to flying while hese flying back, however. I get hurt as badly
as I do for letting him fly up against a wall. I really dont know why
if you stopped using ki by flying how are you being dealt wall
damage anyway? Theres no obstacle in mid air.

Anyway I just get Agressive and start jumping around while charging a beam

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

Originally posted by Code_Blood_Red
to me any diffuiculty is not a difficulty at all: it's a challenge.

You're right, guys...

I'm thinking of this from a gamer's perspective. i should be thinking of it from A SAIYAN'S PERSPECTIVE.

It's just one more thing I have to defeat!

So god as my witness I will find a way to better deal with this attack, exploit or not.

In fact I'll go try it out right now. >:0)

 

[Bombg]

I have to agree with saiyanpride on this one. I have played esf, and the beta for a while now so i have some clue of what im talking about.

Instant countering seems to be an exploit because of one main thing; it totally renders swoop+meelee useless if your opponent knows how to effectively instant counter.

So what happens when swoop+meelee is useless? People will sit around, and throw beams around all game. Who wants to attack someone who you know is going to knock you away instantly; no matter what you do?

I dont know about everyone else, but i think plain old beam tossing gets boring fast. Even if everyone is happy with beam tossing, there is still the fact that instant countering renders head on meelee attacks useless. Which disables one of the defining parts about the game.

I have never done an instant counter myself, but it does happen to me often. I will take some people's word on instant countering, and assume that it's skill based which requires good timing.

Yes having the game require lots of skill is a good thing. The problem is that even if two people are evenly skilled; the attacker will always loose due to instant countering Which leads back to one of my previous points; people will just sit and throw beams.

Right now Instant Countering isnt a huge problem, but I'm seeing more people doing it day by day. The problem will only get worse with time as players gain more skill.

I belive instant countering to be a flaw with meelee, and i hope the devs see it that way.

I have one suggestion (which i just thought up) that may help fix this flaw. Add in some code that makes it so only players swooping can hit other swooping players, and dont allow stationary players to hit swooping players. I'm not exactly sure if this is the root of the problem, but it seems like it.




and just for clarification.

What instant countering IS NOT.
-Someone countering a blocked attack.
What instant countering IS.
-An attacker being hit instantly as they enter their opponents meelee range. This allows no reaction time for the attacker; which renders his head on attack useless.

I hope that was clear enough.


-Bombg