****ing seals, man

Government or us

  • Yes, the american taxpayer paid for this

    Votes: 7 70.0%
  • No, the government paid for this with the money they got out of thin air

    Votes: 3 30.0%

  • Total voters
    10

sub

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Legend:
Amnestometh = Spunky
Hybrid094=Me

Short conversation of an argument between me and Spunky. I've attached a totally non biased poll.

Amnestometh (1:09:56 AM): The average cost of rehabilitating a seal after the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Alaska was $80,000. At a special ceremony, two of the most expensively saved animals were released back into the wild amid cheers and applause from onlookers. A minute later, in full view, a killer whale ate them both.
Hybrid094 (1:10:22 AM): we spent 80,000 dollars on hundreds of seals
Hybrid094 (1:10:27 AM): when there are people starving in the world
Hybrid094 (1:10:32 AM): i ****ing hate this place
Amnestometh (1:10:35 AM): Hahaha
Hybrid094 (1:10:36 AM): no
Hybrid094 (1:10:38 AM): its not funny
Hybrid094 (1:10:41 AM): thats all kinds of ****ed up
Hybrid094 (1:10:46 AM): who makes these decisions
Amnestometh (1:11:02 AM): I don't know but I found that story absolutely hilarious
Hybrid094 (1:11:14 AM): that **** upsets me =/
Hybrid094 (1:11:27 AM): i couldnt give a **** less the seals were eaten
Hybrid094 (1:11:30 AM): thats nature
Hybrid094 (1:11:42 AM): but 80,000 dollars? we can spend that money elsewhere
Amnestometh (1:11:44 AM): -_-
Amnestometh (1:11:50 AM): That's why it's hilarious.
Hybrid094 (1:11:55 AM): ...
Amnestometh (1:12:02 AM): So much money for two seals who got eaten in front of their investors.
Amnestometh (1:12:07 AM): THat is hilarious
Hybrid094 (1:12:21 AM): you're the investor
Hybrid094 (1:12:23 AM): i'm the investor
Hybrid094 (1:12:30 AM): it was just decided
Hybrid094 (1:12:33 AM): after years of litigation
Amnestometh (1:12:40 AM): The hell I am, the government is the investor. Taxes belong to the government.
Hybrid094 (1:12:41 AM): that exon is only going to cover a small fraction of that oil spill
Hybrid094 (1:12:53 AM): the american tax payer paid for most of the cleanup
Hybrid094 (1:12:56 AM): gg
Amnestometh (1:12:59 AM): No, the government did.
Amnestometh (1:13:06 AM): We paid taxes.
Hybrid094 (1:13:09 AM): are you mentally retarded
Hybrid094 (1:13:19 AM): the government gets its money from tax payers :p
Amnestometh (1:13:26 AM): The government spends the money we pay however they please.
Amnestometh (1:13:30 AM): We didn't invest in saving those seals.
Amnestometh (1:13:32 AM): The government did.
Amnestometh (1:13:34 AM): Dumbass
Hybrid094 (1:13:35 AM): yes we did
Amnestometh (1:13:35 AM): :p
Hybrid094 (1:13:36 AM): its our money
Amnestometh (1:13:45 AM): No, it's the government's money.
Hybrid094 (1:13:52 AM): ... that they got from us
Amnestometh (1:13:55 AM): Right.
Hybrid094 (1:13:56 AM): and wouldnt have had
Hybrid094 (1:13:59 AM): if we didnt pay for it
Hybrid094 (1:14:01 AM): making it our money
Hybrid094 (1:14:03 AM): that we, you know
Hybrid094 (1:14:04 AM): paid for
Amnestometh (1:14:04 AM): Right. No.
Amnestometh (1:14:08 AM): It makes it their money.
Amnestometh (1:14:16 AM): We paid them. If I give you $5, is that still my money?
Hybrid094 (1:14:20 AM): spunky, thats the stupidest thing i've heard all weak
Hybrid094 (1:14:21 AM): week*
Hybrid094 (1:14:25 AM): i'm not trying to be a ****
Hybrid094 (1:14:26 AM): i know i am
Hybrid094 (1:14:31 AM): but thats silly
Amnestometh (1:14:41 AM): No listen to me. When you make a car payment, does that money still belong to you?
Amnestometh (1:14:48 AM): Taxes are the same thing.
Hybrid094 (1:14:50 AM): of course not, because you paid for it
Hybrid094 (1:14:52 AM): just as we paid for it
Amnestometh (1:14:52 AM): Right.
Hybrid094 (1:14:59 AM): spunky
Amnestometh (1:15:02 AM): Sub.
Hybrid094 (1:15:05 AM): the government is a middleman
Hybrid094 (1:15:08 AM): the money went from us
Hybrid094 (1:15:13 AM): to the oilspill
Hybrid094 (1:15:22 AM): it did that by going through the government
Hybrid094 (1:15:24 AM): but we paid for it
Amnestometh (1:15:29 AM): Yes, but we paid them. They decided to spend that money on the oil spill.
Amnestometh (1:15:30 AM): We didn't.
Hybrid094 (1:15:31 AM): the government is in power by the people
Amnestometh (1:15:33 AM): Because it wasn't our money.

I command you, ESF forum, prove one of us right.
 
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When you pay taxes, that money no longer belongs to you. Whatever the government decides to spend it on has nothing to do with you. When you pay for a cheeseburger at McDonalds, you're investing in a tasty cheeseburger (if you like McDonalds). When you pay taxes to the government, you've no way of knowing where your money will go, so you aren't really investing in anything. Rather, you're trusting your government to make the right decisions and invest what is now their money wisely.
 

sub

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The government makes monetary decisions for the American taxpayer. They decide what we spend our money on. And yes, the governments money is our money. I contend that if the government chooses to spend money on, oh, lets say a 5 trillion dollar bailout for two companies, the American taxpayer will end up paying this off seeing as how the money has to come from somewhere.

Spunky seems to think that we can spend more than we take in and the American taxpayer will remain unaffected.
 
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That's not what I think at all, nor was that the argument. My argument was that once we pay taxes, that money belongs to the government. What they choose to spend it on is their decision. If you want to think of it in terms of investment, you're making an investment in your government.
 

sub

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Spunky, I'm sorry, but that essentially is what you're arguing, whether you realize it or not.

I'm making these numbers up, but let's say that due to the court ruling, the government must spend 1 billion dollars on the cleanup for the Exxon oil spill. The U.S. government is roughly 13 trillion dollars in debt, give or take a trillion or two. We're also spending more money every year than we take in. These are debts that must be repaid, and the governments main source of income (not only, but by and large the governments main source of income) is the american taxpayer. This has created a debt that did not exist before, a debt that must be paid by the American taxpayer. This is what you're arguing with me about.

The governments money is our money.
 
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At least you're making more sense. I stick to my argument though. Once you pay taxes, it's the government's money. You aren't associated with the government except by the fact that you're an American citizen, so you really have no say in what your money is invested in. You're asked to pay taxes, so you pay them. The government can then do anything within reason they want to with that money, and you'll never see it again. It's no longer your money.
 

sub

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How on Earth is it not my money? In keeping with the example in my previous post, by creating a 1 billion dollar debt, they need more of my money to pay it off. You know, they have to obtain more money from me in the long run.

The government is elected to serve the people. Government employees work for the American people and are paid by the American people. The governments money belongs to the American people. When the government pays for something, every taxpaying citizen in America is essentially paying for that.

The bottom line is, you were wrong about End, you're wrong about this.
 
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Hey guys, whats up? :eek:

btw..i have to say i agree with sub on this one, it may be the governments money, but the government is meant to serve its people. Which in fact makes it ours, since we run off of a democracy and vote on everything. The American people do have a say in what happens, and where its money goes. Therefore making it our money still
 
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How often do you stand up and tell the government what you want them to spend the money you pay on, Odin? The government uses the taxes you pay to fund the occupation in Iraq. Do you know how many people are against that? They pay taxes anyway and their money still goes toward it. The government doesn't care what you want your money to go toward. They make decisions for the nation. It's what they're elected to do. Hell, Sub was angry that the government used the taxes he paid to save some animals instead of feeding the homeless (or something, too lazy to check logs).

Edit: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23924282/
 
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Paying taxes is like paying rent. You pay it and maybe your landlord will use it to fix something in your home or maybe not. Either way its out of your hands and is no longer your money.
 

sub

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Paying your landlord is different from paying your government. If the government creates a 6 billion dollar debt, the money must come from us. They need to squeeze out an additional 6 billion dollars from the tax payer that they wouldn't have needed from us before. Whenever the government creates a debt for itself, it's creating a debt for the taxpayer, for the average american.

With our 13 trillion dollar national debt, every taxpayer (or was it family? I'm doing this from memory) would need to give roughly 30,000 dollars to the government in order to pay it off. Their wasting our own money, to contend that it's not our money is insanity to the highest degree.
 
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Meh, at least they're cleaning up some of the mess they made, better that than having animal rights activists waisting peoples time.

Tax always gets squandered its nothing new. Here in England you find that city councils will try and spend as much as they can just so they can apply for a bigger budget next year, if they underspend they'll get less next year. It's quite retarded. How much do you guys get taxed over there anyway? as far as I can tell you get a pretty free ride in terms of stealth tax.
 
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well there shouldnt be any doubt that the money we put forth for taxes is money we, as americans, pool to fund the basics of our country's economy. mainly production services, education, military, medical, and home economic basics (water treatment, electrical facilities etc...). while they can use it how they so choose, legally, the tax payer money is gathered to further american life.

im not sure how they furthered american life by saving a couple of seals. an oil spill, yeah, clean that **** up. that will end up effecting us but the seals can blow me.

****y little bastards.
 
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Actually, I'm not even sure the government paid to save the seals. To clean up the oil spill, yeah. But I think a third party paid to rehabilitate the seals. Either way, was funny to see Sub flip out over it, even though I agree with him for the most part. o_O
 

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It doesn't matter if a third party paid for it or the government paid for it. That could have been spent feeding humans rather than cleaning up seals.
 
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Have you ever heard the phrase "the taxpayer's dollars"? Why do you think people were so pissed at the "bridge to nowhere" thing?

You can't really use normal transactions as an analogy to taxes.

And I thought it was ironic (and somewhat humorous) that they realized that they aren't saving humans. Those animals aren't going back to their families to frolock like in the movies; a lot of them are other animals' food.

But, the fact that so much money was spent on animals just so they can be eaten, compared to the LOADS of other problems out there, is a serious issue. But Spunky has always had a....Dark sense of humor, if you ask me.

Edit: Pardon me for my previous spelling mistakes :(
 
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sub

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Thank you, Chakra.
 
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Sorry but I have to agree with Sub here. You can't throw any random analogy you come up with. Well if you buy a car is that money yours?!?!?!? No it's not, and neither is the tax money you give away, however the subtle difference is you actually care what your tax money goes towards. If you buy a car who gives a **** where the money you used to pay for that car goes towards. Bills, someones pay check whatever, it's out of your hands. Let's not forget that when you use these "well if you buy a hamburger" analogy, you're willingly, by choice, buying that hamburger. However, taxes are something you HAVE to pay. No one says "Hey I think I'll pay some taxes today for funzies!" So most people tend to care what the money they HAVE to give to the government goes towards.

But when you pay your taxes, you care what they do with that money. And 80,000 dollars for 2 seals only to be eaten not even two minutes into their new lives is preposterous. I can understand why an irresponsible adult would find it funny to give money to someone you hope is trying to better their country only to spend it on something useless.
 
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