If You Could Train With Anyone

[DiebytheSword]

The best thing one can do in preparation for fighting is to spar, full-contact, under various conditions, against individuals of different styles and allowing full range of combat.

Better yet, take up MMA.

MMA, which usually relies heavily on grappling, is not useful in real combat situations unless those situations are one on one. I personally don't like them for the same reason I dislike military versions of martial arts. They forgo the art for more martial. But most grappling styles suffer in a situation where there are multiple opponents. The striking training of MMA will get them through, but it isn't what a vast majority of MMA fighters train for.

 

[MC]

specifics. the arts. training specifically to fight against a martial art is a specific. thats why the basics of martial arts is to look for muscle movement, or to condition yourself to react towards movement.

The basics of the Martial Arts tends to be more about principle than anything else.

Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido for example placed much emphasis on the principles of movement. And in doing so, he demonstrated that the principles of movement can be translated over into anything. For example, applying spear techniques to a staff, or staff techniques to a spear, etcetera.

Even Bruce Lee himself was about principle.

MMA, which usually relies heavily on grappling, is not useful in real combat situations unless those situations are one on one. I personally don't like them for the same reason I dislike military versions of martial arts. They forgo the art for more martial. But most grappling styles suffer in a situation where there are multiple opponents. The striking training of MMA will get them through, but it isn't what a vast majority of MMA fighters train for.

Not to mention you're usually better off retreating if outnumbered. While not a favorable tactic, it's still a useful tactic. But you brought up really interesting points though.

 

[DiebytheSword]

Well that depends; I'm farily confident that I could hold off four inexperienced fighters or more, and I'm also resonably certain that using grappling techniques on those same four might very well send me to the hospital. All it takes is one hard object to the head while you apply a crippling ankle lock.

 

[F-Man]

MMA doesn't rely heavily on grappling at all. grappling is one aspect of it, and in a one on one street fight the best thing to do is probably to just choke the person out. quick and easy, and you don't take any hits. the average person doesn't know what to do when they hit the ground, and street fights tend to end up there.

MMA is heavily based on what you want it to be based on, there is no set style or rule. if you come from a striking background your strength will always he striking, but that doesn't mean you can't add other things. when you add those other styles it becomes MMA. not everyone in MMA comes from a grappling background, but you do need to know it.


I do think MMA is best for most street fight situations though because of it being a bit more open. knowing one style well and a few others pretty good is better than knowing one style really good I think. striking art would be more useful compared to grappling if you were outnumbered though.


I just realized I mightve taken your post the wrong way. I thought you meant everyone in MMA came from grappling, but I think you meant that its a big part of the MMA game, which is true.

 

[DiebytheSword]

You did take me wrong. And I myself know multiple martial arts at expert level, I would never, however, consider myself a MMA. MMA is very much its own thing, and pays little, if any, homage to where it came from. It takes what it wants and throws out the rest, taking shortcuts to get effect. No offense to those who do label themselves MMA's but it takes a lifetime to master any one martial art, and if you get the fast food version of it you will be full, and you will no longer be hungry, but it wasn't neccesarily a five star banquet.

MMA, SCARS et al will always have limitations, and worse still, those limitations will always be mysteries to those who learn them. Yes, you will pound 80% of the inexperienced fighters you come across, but I have seen many amazing things done by old style martial artists that have yet to be matched by one MMA that I know. And yes, I do know a few.

 

[F-Man]

MMA takes only what it wants because only a few of the styles work in realistic situations. doing flipping spin kicks is fine and dandy, but it isn't realistic in combat. I'm not trying to disrespect any martial arts or anything, but MMA is about winning real fights. some martial arts are based on the beauty side of things, how it looks, and that's fine. people who train in MMA will throw that stuff out, because it isn't realistic or useful in a fight.

there is also multiple MMA competitors who hold black belts in Brazilian jiu jitsu, jiu jitsu, and judo. if they really wanted a shortcut I dont think they'd waste their time getting those black belts, heh.

someone who is a black belt at one style is more limited than someone who is a brown belt at multiple styles.

 

[DiebytheSword]

I want to make it clear, before I go any further, that I respect MMArtists abilities, and I would rank most of them as serious threats in most situations. As for your comment about flying kicks, that's cute and all, but just by your comment you miss the point. This is the first thing that gets thrown into any argument concerning the legitimacy of say, Tae Kwon Do in a fighting situation. Choke outs are nice, but they take time, and I'm fairly sure that the only Martial Art that can land a garaunteed knock out punch is Boxing. There are a fairly large number of Tae Kwon Do kicks that will land you in a hospital getting treated for broken bones, internal bleeding, and damaged organs. Only a fool would throw them first (another argument that gets bandied about, I am not going to waltz into a fight, right up to a guy, and perform a spinning kick), and most Tae Kwon Do artists consider those kicks to be the end point of a tactical approach. I will make you give me that opening, and then I will injure it so badly that you will have no choice but to forfeit combat.

In case anyone chooses to belittle TKD, I am also an expert in Hung Gar Kung Fu, and have significant experience in Hapkido, Judo and wrestling.

 

[F-Man]

I wasn't trying to put any style down, I just kind of thought you were saying guys who did MMA didn't take it serious. I also don't deny that kicks hurt, I actually think people don't use them enough. I've sparred with muay thai guys before and it isn't fun, heh. Ive actually seen some people throw up after getting a good kick to the liver.

obviously most fights start on the feet. so in a street fight you usually start striking, but someone usually initiates some type of wrestling match. usually the guy who gets hit and doesn't like it will clinch and try to take you down. that's when you can choke him out. I just think it would be easier to skip all that and choke him out, heh. If you know what you're doing it really shouldn't take long.

 

[MC]

Out of all the fights I remember seeing during my days in school, not one of them ended up on the ground.

 

[F-Man]

Out of all the fights I remember seeing during my days in school, not one of them ended up on the ground.

you mean those school fights that are broken up in 23 seconds?

I've seen a good amount of fights end up on the ground.

 

[MC]

you mean those school fights that are broken up in 23 seconds?

I've seen a good amount of fights end up on the ground.

Those and one's that were fought outside of the school.

 

[DiebytheSword]

That's kind of my point, Tae Kwon Do aims to finish a fight in three blows or less. Hun Gar is no less vicious or efficient.

While a lot of the guys who run MMA have multiple black belts, the people they teach don't. They just give them the shortcuts.

To clarify, I think they are quite serious, and no less dedication goes into their training than any other discapline, I simply believe their approach to disseminating that knowledge to others is often flawed, and leads to McDojo-esq teachings. Martial Arts are a way of life, not just a fight tool.

I have a good freind who is quite skilled in Muy Tai, he always pushes my kicks to be just a bit harder than I was throwing them at the beginning of our sessions. If I don't hurt him through the kick shield he feels insulted. His roundhouse is quite dangerous, and I'm always weary of being on the recieving end of it.

However, my back kick is stronger than any of his


To add to the conversation that's been going on:

I have seen quite a few fights end up on the ground, and I've seen more than one poor guy get his ass kicked by his opponents freinds for being there. Nothing like jockeying for a choke and eating heel to the back of the head.

 

[F-Man]

I'm not too sure about the shortcut thing still. it depends on where you train and who you train with really, and that goes for any martial arts. a lot of guys still train in things like judo and BJJ and still go through the usual routine. they wear the gi and have to earn the belt. other schools teach things like BJJ and judo but got rid of the gi because it isn't used in MMA, and they also got rid of belt levels when they did that. some people do try and teach a combined style which is a shortcut I guess. MMA is really starting to become its own hybrid style though, so I'm also not sure if teaching a combined package is so bad.

 

[DiebytheSword]

Like I said, it will be effective, it will have its weaknesses though, and any pretense to it being somehow superior through hybridization will be false.

 

[DaRkOwNs]

the McDojo is the entire reason i stopped learning martial arts about 4 years through tang soo do (which is a McMartial Art, i guess). if i was gonna get MA training, it would be from a single person. not a class, which tends to skip through the longer, important stuff.

 

[DiebytheSword]

Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Tang Soo Do tend to suffer from McDojo power more than any other schools, but good schools are out there. The worst ones are McDojos that have a good teacher who actually knows what he's doing but only teaches students with potential themselves, and churn out belt ranks to unqualified hacks. My Tae Kwon Do school was like this. I was teaching four classes a week, which Master Nam would not instruct at all, and I'd learn at three different classes, two of which were the McDojo specials (I refused to teach some of the garbage that was done at these two classes) and a "Black Belt Club" that taught very advanced and lethal techniques. I understand why lethal techniques can only be taught by invite only, but it tarnished the reputation of the school to allow most of its students to learn only a fraction of the styles true potential.