Here we go again...My Record-breakingly Long-Term Model

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I'm sure a lot of the modellers around here have bad memories of seeing me blunder along with my model (the one in my avatar) for an entire Summer, only to drop off the face of the Earth. It's by far the model that's taken the longest to produce, because I'm trying to make THIS model correctly.
I've had horrible polyflow experiences, and have tried creating the model so many times with so many failures that I backed off for a long time and regrouped now for another go.
This time, I'm armed with a new, much saner modelling technique and tutorial (3D Total's Joan of Arc tut) which beats the Hell out of Ben Mathis' methods which have screwed me over time and again. Here I present to you the start of what may be my best model ever.







Again, just a start. Notice though, that unlike previous versions, I actually hav defined edge-loops which I have already tested for facial animation, and I must say, the ability to manipulate the face with soft selection is astonishingly easier.

I'm becoming quite fond of this method. It produces quality results, and yet is so simple to use. If anyone has any crits about the form or pol-placement, please share them; though keep in mind, I respond much better to polite criticism (ie: not incluing words like "suck", "worthless" and "helpless wannabe" in them) like what a teacher would say to a high school student.

Drawovers are always very helpful if you have the time or volition.
 
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Post some pics withouth the wireframe an cel shade...
The eyebrows don't curve around the outside of the eye...
Other than that theres not much here to crit...


ps...
I can't believe your still working on this... lol
 
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Well you have tons of wasted polies, lets start with a cleaner render, mind posting flat shaded + wireframe render of the front and side (without the ref in the background)?
I'll try to help you out with the polyflow and a few other things.

JTV is correct about the eyebrow by the way.

But good work so far, I mean it's great that you dont give up like that, the key is to try again and again untill you get the hang of it ;)
 
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Ask and you shall receive...





And btw, about the eyebrows; you mean they shouldn't curve, or they should?

EDIT: By "Flat shade" you mean regular shade? Because these are renders, not viewport images, and I can't render flat, unless I use normal material with 100% self illumination.

And in my own defense, the model is intended for video, not game use. Just followed the instructions of the tutorial, which had me use the same poly depth. I'd like to know where you mean before I become stupid and weld like crazy and ruin the model with runaway triangles.
 

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Maybe this will help you in your progress. A quick drawover of your character front view:






you need to think that the mesh later will be animated,
how the animation will react with the face expressions based on your polyflow and so on


may your blade always strike through
- 武士道
 
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Interesting...are the lines you posted guides for the basic direction of the polys, or an exact wireframe? It's an awesome drawover, I'm amazed you whipped it up that fast, but just wondered. I'm never quite sure as to how many polys are "enough". I've always thought, "the higher the poly, the higher the detail", but of course I am not nearly so learned as ye' :)
 
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I would do a completely different polyflow...
Anyway bushido I would prefer it like this...

 
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Lol, which to do, which to do? Well SV, I'll rephrase the questions:

1: I still don't understand what you two said about the eyebrows. Could you elaborate?

2: Do you want a smooth-shade render with wires? Or a 100% Self Illumination render with wires? I normally associate "flat" with the viewport viewing method.
 
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just show the view port, do a print screen, also i see A LOT of wasted polies, also his head is shaped really wierd, try to make it a little less flat on the top
 
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why its so high poly? i understand a term high poly but that is just too much stuff doing nothing...
 
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Listen to SV, Kreshi, and Bushidou... Thats one good line up of people to help you...

Here's what they want by a Flat


Here what I meant by the Eyebrows


Also see when its smooth... that its actually not really smooth at all, it has a lot of rough spots...
 
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Thats what I'd do
 
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@TRSSRemix & Nataku: The poly-density is due to my following the Joan of Arc tutorial, which is designed for a high poly character. I tried to follow the segmentations as close as possible, so the polys are pretty dense. I was afraid to go lesser poly and sacrifice my flow and structure, because when I do I often misjudge which edges/verts to remove/weld.

The head top is likely because my ref doesn't include a bald head, and I was going off my own memory of how a DB head is shaped (often they seem to taper at the top, at least in my mind, though I agree in retrospect that it needs rounding more)

@JTVEclipse12: Ah, okay, he wants it faceted. I see. And you want the eyebrow to remain straight? Okay, no prob, I just followed the ref. Easy fix.
 
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Well I must say I'm rather impressed J! You've learned a lot from that tut... just like... me ;) However you must keep in your mind that u can't use the exact same poly structure for your char!

Check this out:


This are first steps from my Naruto model I made some time ago here on this forum... To do it I've also used knowledge from Joan's tut! But my model does not have the same structure! I had to change it a bit! And this... well let's say that now this model head looks much more diffrent...

This is from the middle of the progress...


You've got to admit that anime chars and 'normal' organic models are a bit diffrent... So I had to make a few changes in joan's flow to make it look more like an anime char...

Smoothed first steps!


You also have to see on your smoothed render that there is something wrong with the top of head shape! I personaly found out that the key to good shape is to check your model by rotating it! This makes you see what is wrong with the flow, shape... To make my head look this smooth I had to rorate again and again and again! Trust me this gives you a better understanding of your model and it's shape!


So remeber try to adapt joan's flow to your model needs!
Still I'm very impressed with your progress ;) Keep up the good work !

P.S. And don't worry about those guys here! They can be a pain in the ass (I know sth about it) but they rly want to help you out! ...and yes, sometime they (and me :p) will that this part sucks, re do it or sth like that, becouse we know that you can do better than that or that it rly sucks!!! But we are doing it for your own good!!! We are not trying to make your life a living hell (right guys ?? ;)) So try to follow every crit and sugestion that people on this (and usualy anyother) forum have for ya!

Hope I helped a bit!
 
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Ravven said:
We are not trying to make your life a living hell (right guys ?? ;))
I am...
JK, here take a look at this Pikon head i made for the competition.
Its not much or the best Pikon/Polyflow but the results are smoother with less polys. This is because i used them more effeciently.
 
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I think you are having the wrong idea here
I've always thought, "the higher the poly, the higher the detail",
ofcourse this is true.. But it takes a skilled modeler to make something great/decent with as less polygons as possible.

I think THAT is what you need to be aiming for at this moment.. just start as low poly as you can.. form a basic shape.. and start adding polys where you
think is needed.

Just making a whole damn lot of polys for the sake of it being "high poly" isnt the right way to go.even if it is for a video rather then a video-game.

+ I dont think you need to be folowing tutorials anymore.You get the idea + you know how the 3d modeling program works.I dont think there is much we can teach you.From here on its practising.Developing your art skills and getting an eye for seeing something 3d in yr mind.

I think yr problem is, that you are kind of insecure, and cause of that you think you have to get eveything right the first time, and that you have to need feedback on every little thing you do.You shouldnt do that.. Make mistakes and you will leanr even more.

P.s: I allways start from a box for the head.Then i start adding polys(cuts etc) and from then on when i got a basic shape for the head, I extrude polys and work poly by poly.. mayb that helps..
 
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sven-da-man said:
I think you are having the wrong idea here

ofcourse this is true.. But it takes a skilled modeler to make something great/decent with as less polygons as possible.

I think THAT is what you need to be aiming for at this moment.. just start as low poly as you can.. form a basic shape.. and start adding polys where you
think is needed.

Just making a whole damn lot of polys for the sake of it being "high poly" isnt the right way to go.even if it is for a video rather then a video-game.

+ I dont think you need to be folowing tutorials anymore.You get the idea + you know how the 3d modeling program works.I dont think there is much we can teach you.From here on its practising.Developing your art skills and getting an eye for seeing something 3d in yr mind.

I think yr problem is, that you are kind of insecure, and cause of that you think you have to get eveything right the first time, and that you have to need feedback on every little thing you do.You shouldnt do that.. Make mistakes and you will leanr even more.

P.s: I allways start from a box for the head.Then i start adding polys(cuts etc) and from then on when i got a basic shape for the head, I extrude polys and work poly by poly.. mayb that helps..
Thnx guys, your support means a lot. It'll be no problem for me to reduce polys with the current model since it's so linear (ie: thank God, no dead end polys or tris) I'll try to minimize as much as I can using those drawovers for reference (likely, those key polys you outlined will be the ones I exempt from removal) and try to play the "minimalist" to see how it goes. I'll make gradual saves and see if I can finish the head's form and get back to you.
 
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sounds like you wanna leave us for eternity lol.

anyway i cant really say much bout it.

just though you would finaly get a rid of this concept and do seome other inspirationed stuff.

But well, go for it, everything been said.
 
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PiXel said:
sounds like you wanna leave us for eternity lol.

anyway i cant really say much bout it.

just though you would finaly get a rid of this concept and do seome other inspirationed stuff.

But well, go for it, everything been said.
Nah, it's for a big project, I have to finish it. You don't end what you start if it's taken you a long time to do it. That's what quitters do. And besides, I'd hate to see that my time and effort toward this were for nothing. I've gone too far to back off. If there's one thing I hate, it's seeing work wasted.
 
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Nah, it's for a big project, I have to finish it. You don't end what you start if it's taken you a long time to do it. That's what quitters do. And besides, I'd hate to see that my time and effort toward this were for nothing. I've gone too far to back off. If there's one thing I hate, it's seeing work wasted.
Ok now i am interested to see what you have allready done for this project.I mean you've been working on it for so long.And we have been commenting on it for so long.Id like to know what it is all about actually.

Can we see some stuff you did then plz?
 

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