Ground attributes.

[TonyTheTiger]

As it stands right now, there is no good features or benefits for players to fight close or on the ground. Basically this leads esf's fights to be fought 95 % of the time in the air.

I kept it simple and added some enhancements that could benefit the player if he fought on the ground.

-The player can brace themself on the ground and can compete in a beam struggle without moving backwords (a good benefit from this is that the player does not have to worry about taking hp damage if pushed up against a wall).

-when you double tap on the ground, the player will make a short but quick leap into a direction (forwards, backwards, etc.) If he continue's to hold the key down, the player breaks out into a running sprint which will act as the same speed as a swoop. The player will have no aura when dashing, and this move drains from ki (or stamina) very minimally.

Looking up with the mouse while dashing will not put the player into flight mode. Instead the player will have to press the fly key or he must jump and double tap in the air in order to fly.

-teleports use slightly less ki on the ground.

Feel free to add more. Credits to grega for flight mode idea.

 

[imkongkong]

- you only fly when you press fly. double tapping jump will lead you to free fall unless you press fly.

 

[nge]

There already are benifits for fighting close to the ground.

-If you're in a PS and on the ground, you don't have to maintain flight ki cost, giving you a huge advantage in a PL.

-You can't be hit from below on the ground.

-If you score a hit near the ground, odds are you'll get 3 hits and a beam/blob in.

-You can jump, and swoop/jump on the ground for more manuverability.

-Beamjumping is immediately available.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

There still isn't enough benefits to actually fight on the ground. Thats why most battles are done in the air anyway.

- you only fly when you press fly.

Swooping automatically puts you into flight mode, not just the fly key.

-If you score a hit near the ground, odds are you'll get 3 hits and a beam/blob in.

That is referring to you hitting the enemy into the ground (from the air), not actually fighting on the ground.

The dash will be implemented instead of swooping on the ground how it is now, which also makes players go automatically into flight mode, where dashing will not.

 

[imkongkong]

There still isn't enough benefits to actually fight on the ground. Thats why most battles are done in the air anyway.

Swooping automatically puts you into flight mode, not just the fly key.

That is referring to you hitting the enemy into the ground (from the air), not actually fighting on the ground.

The dash will be implemented instead of swooping on the ground, which also makes players go immediately into flight mode, where dashing will not.

no i mean you should ONLY fly if you activate fly by pressing the fly key. so if you swoop in the air you should NOT remain in flight >_>

 

[SA_Gohan]

-The player can brace themself on the ground and can compete in a beam struggle without moving backwords (a good benefit from this is that the player does not have to worry about taking hp damage if pushed up against a wall).

I think it'd be better to have that happen only when blocking an attack from the air. If both players are on the ground and one fires a beam and the other blocks, then the defender should definitely be forced backwards until they break the attack or run into something.

I'm all in support of your other ideas.

 

[Grega]

Weakspot. 1 big beam and you can kiss the ground from below ^^

I agree that there should be runing on the ground instead of that swoop animation. But jumping can be made difrently. In case you didnt nituce the duck button does absolutly nothing in ESF. The crouch dosent even let you swoop. You need to bind the +duck to a button to be able to swoop down.

So why not make dashjumps on the ground simply by holding duck and pressing a direction. Note that this is a jump so you launch forward or any other direction you press. Gives you fast movement for no ki cost and great maneverability. Only downside is that you are a good target for beams.

Now here is teh trick. If you are on the ground and doubletap W you start runing forward. Even if you are looking up. You only start to fly if you jump and doubletap in the air or press the fly button.

 

[imkongkong]

Now here is teh trick. If you are on the ground and doubletap W you start runing forward. Even if you are looking up. You only start to fly if you jump and doubletap in the air or press the fly button.

i like the last paragraph =p

 

[$sj Goku]

ok some ground attributes.. here is my thoughts on how things should work on the ground.

- Press Toggly Fly Changes the MODE of your player. If you are on the ground, No matter what you do you cannot fly. So if you jump then double tap forward in the air you will have a small boost allowing you to shift the direction of your jump. If your in fly mode the only way for you to land on the ground and use the sprinting and running ect is to press Toggly For butotn OR to be Knocked to the ground.

- If you double tap foward while on the ground You burt into a sprint that's a half faster then swoop. (same ki cost)

-WHen on the ground U the teleport button does not teleport but instead causes your player to do a very nice * Fast Leep* in the direction your going. the jump isn't high at all its very low but you go Half the distance of a Teleport.( and the ki cost is half the ki cost of a teleport ) This would be great for dodges beams that are aimed at the ground instead of you.

- When on the ground Holding the powerup button + teleport allows your player to charge upa boost* meter allowing you to accelerate really fast into a sprint.

- During a sprint if you continue to sprint then press Toggly Fly your character while stop sprinting and start flying and visaversa.

- 2 players on the ground that are fighting with basic melee cannot knock the other off his feet/make him or her role. INstead when either is hit hey are pushed back like when in the air except the recover time is MUCh shorter, Uses LESS ki and the player slides back alot faster an further away, but he's close enough to get catch up to with 2 to 3 ** Fast Leeps**for the hit.(the idea is fast pace fighting. The animation would be a player holding his stomach while sliding backwards. ) players while sliding back can slam into any object... Trees / rocks/ walls /ect.
you can do up to 5 hits in a row because it would hard as hell to make all 5 and even if you can it would cost alot of ki. while on the ground If you have zero ki You can stil block without behing hit becuz your supported by the ground.

- at the cost of 1 teleport players on the ground can summon a power shield* that lasts for 5 sconds. IT allows you to SUMMON your power and stop all splash damage from beams. Melee can penetrate the shield easily but the damage is reduced by 25% The beam can still Do dmg If it's a DIRECT hit.
(the animation should NOT look like gohans shield. IT should look like the player is summoning power with wind effects around the player and his aura should go haywire while growing in size temporarily. This woould be a great way to prevent dmg from beams that you see are coming your way.

- Im not sure but i remember certain characters could control an energy ball that moved at fast speeds. Mabye to make krillin a better player they should give him that move. It would work like this when on the ground you charge the ball like a gen beam then fire when its fired the ball will go at the person you threw it at. Where the Person is CURRENTLY at that's where teh balll will target. IF the perosn moves that ball will not change directions. Once the ball passes by the person if you click again the ball will accelerate in random directions then suddenly GO where the same person is CURRENTLY at. IF he doges the ball doesn't change directions. The person can click up to 5 times before the ball dies.

 

[TheCost]

there should be an option to disable flying at the menu so

double tap would mean fast running and so on

 

[TonyTheTiger]

-TonyTheTiger123: The player can brace themself on the ground and can compete in a beam struggle without moving backwords (a good benefit from this is that the player does not have to worry about taking hp damage if pushed up against a wall).
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I think it'd be better to have that happen only when blocking an attack from the air. If both players are on the ground and one fires a beam and the other blocks, then the defender should definitely be forced backwards until they break the attack or run into something.

I'm all in support of your other ideas.

That sounds balanced and fair on top of my original idea. Good thinking.

Now here is teh trick. If you are on the ground and doubletap W you start runing forward. Even if you are looking up. You only start to fly if you jump and doubletap in the air or press the fly button.

i like the last paragraph =p

I agree too. Players should be able to look up as their dashing on the ground, without automatically flying into the air.

 

[Rayne]

I still feel the same way as the last time this was suggested. IMO this is comepletely unnecessary. Basic melee fighting in Esf is best with the freedom of flight and having battles on the ground eliminates that freedom. Only change I might suggest to the current basic system is to make you run a little faster than a swoop with turbo. But even then, In DBZ about 90% of battles were in the air and when they were close to the ground they didnt run at each other, they swooped because they are faster swooping.

Making it so there is a "ground mode" in a sense where you cant jump into a swoop or swoop dive, bounce, swoop and you have to press toggle fly first is just bad IMO, I would never go near the ground if it were like that. There is just too much of a disadvantage not being able to fly, for example, if i was fighting someone who would wait on the ground so i they could engage in ground basic melee combat, I would just fire Generic balls until they were either forced to fight in the air or until the splash damage had killed them.

Besides, this is already in 1.3 more effectively. If you read the design documents for Advanced Melee, youd see its the same concept as this, just better with a lot more to it. Same dashing principle except you can still fly and you have open combination DBZ style close combat melee attacks instead of basic melee.

If you want to have a ground battle, engage in advanced melee while close to or on the ground.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I still feel the same way as the last time this was suggested. IMO this is comepletely unnecessary. Basic melee fighting in Esf is best with the freedom of flight and having battles on the ground eliminates that freedom. Only change I might suggest to the current basic system is to make you run a little faster than a swoop with turbo. But even then, In DBZ about 90% of battles were in the air and when they were close to the ground they didnt run at each other, they swooped because they are faster swooping.

Making it so there is a "ground mode" in a sense where you cant jump into a swoop or swoop dive, bounce, swoop and you have to press toggle fly first is just bad IMO, I would never go near the ground if it were like that. There is just too much of a disadvantage not being able to fly, for example, if i was fighting someone who would wait on the ground so i they could engage in ground basic melee combat, I would just fire Generic balls until they were either forced to fight in the air or until the splash damage had killed them.

Besides, this is already in 1.3 more effectively. If you read the design documents for Advanced Melee, youd see its the same concept as this, just better with a lot more to it. Same dashing principle except you can still fly and you have open combination DBZ style close combat melee attacks instead of basic melee.

If you want to have a ground battle, engage in advanced melee while close to or on the ground.

Dashing on the ground has nothing to do with a ground mode. All it does is change the swooping animation on the ground to a running animation, with no aura perhaps. Then, dashing will use less ki/stamina then a normal swoop.

Teleports using less ki on the ground would also sound like a good idea to make fighting on the ground more useful. Theres some other things mentioned in the thread that could also benefit ground battles more too.

The second thing we talked about was disabling the automatic flight that happens when someone swoops on the ground, to allow more freedom on the ground. It could also let players look up into the air while dashing without actually going into the air, sort of like sticking to the ground. If you want to fly, the player can press the F key OR jump into the air and swoop, which will enable flight mode. I think you missed the second action that can enable flight.

Making esf only air-based fighting actually makes the game more linear. And saying that dbz fights were mostly in the air isn't necessarily true. If we add ground fighting to the mix with incentives, it adds more ways to fight in esf and adds more skill to the game. The whole point of this thread is for basic melee anyway, not advanced.

 

[Rayne]

The dashing that your describing is useless because its the same as a swoop except your stuck to the ground and the fact that your stuck to the ground is why i called it a ground mode. If someone dashed at you like this, you could easily attack them from above and they wouldnt be able to do anything about it because to meet an attack they would need to be flying in the opposite direction to meet your attack head on, which they cant because they dont have a 3D range of attack, they are stuck with the 2D plane that they are running or dashing on. Linear is far from the correct word to describe the fighting system as it is now, since linear is something that is in a straight line, but in comparison not having complete range of motion is closer to being linear than the 3D range motion that is what all of the fighting in Esf is about at the moment.

Also, I dont know about other players but plenty of times during a fight i see someone coming at me from a close range and wouldnt have time to press toggle fly and swoop or jump from the ground. I missed the part about the jump but when your standing still theres only one way you can jump and its not an advantage to me if thats the only way you can leave the ground in a last minute maneuver.

Im asuming you play enough to know that the most advanced form of fighting in Esf would probably be swooping around an oponent, using your mouse to direct and angle your movement, using basic melee attacks. Compared to this i think of dashing and running in a sprint while unable to move up at any given moment as half as fun. Plus you touch the ground during a fight plenty of times when you are near it and dont always jump off. Again this would leave you open to anyone in the air as they would come at you from above.

But i like some of your idea though. What if you swooped from the ground and instead you just get a speed boost from being on the ground. That way you could swoop along the ground, let go on the ground and then swoop again, giving you more speed on the ground but maintaining full range of directional movement with your mouse. I also like taking less energy to teleport from the ground. Simple advantages like these are good, what i dont like is a new system for ground movement.

IMO dashing should cover a shorter range and be slower than a swoop, but more accurate for close combat, thats why i think it should be kept to the new advanced melee. When they did fight on the ground in DBZ, it was like this except they didnt use what would be basic melee, they used what would be the new advanced melee in Esf.

Thats just my opinion, im not sure how anyone else would feel about this, but I like basic melee the way it is now. Less complication, with maybe one or two more attacks, like the quick throw i believe they are implementing.

EDIT:

Grega, I think your idea with the ducking on the ground and short jumping in a direction from there is awesome. Also your right, i think you should duck when you press the duck button.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

yea i understand, the main reason I started the thread was that I was trying to add some enhancements for fighting on the ground. Thats all. Later on we were toying with the idea of being grounded for the dash.

If that part can complicate the game too much, then we can keep the dash simpler and enhance it like you mentioned. I think it would work better then what we have now, where swooping is exactly the same.. on the ground or in the air. Dashing on the ground could be faster then swooping, to make it useful.

The dash can start very fast at first and be used for quick movements to catch the opponent off guard, but its distance will be a bit shorter then a swoop to keep it balanced.

 

[WhyNot]

just want to add to grega for his moving improvements for standing on the ground...

-be able to charge a jump (press duck+jump) than

->unclasp jump ---> you are jumping up, ~70%swoop distance max, a bit faster than beam jumping, after 50% of swoop distance you get slower than swooping​

->press forward, unclasping jump---> you will jump in the direction of the crosshair, same terms as above​

->any other direction, unclasping jump---> you will jump backwards or to the sides, same terms as above​

 

[Grega]

just want to add to grega for his moving improvements for standing on the ground...

-be able to charge a jump (press duck+jump) than

->unclasp jump ---> you are jumping up, ~70%swoop distance max, a bit faster than beam jumping, after 50% of swoop distance you get slower than swooping​

->press forward, unclasping jump---> you will jump in the direction of the crosshair, same terms as above​

->any other direction, unclasping jump---> you will jump backwards or to the sides, same terms as above​

The whole point of my idea was that you can do fast jumps. Not charged ones.

Its a fast getaway and would look like when you hit the ground and recover with jumping. Only you do it when you are standing on the ground.

Imagine this scenario. Someone is after you. You let yourself fall to teh ground and hold the duck button while you fall.

The other guy is still after you.

When you hit the ground you press a direction (lets say back) and jump. You jump backwards in the same way as if youd be slammed into the ground. But you still dont let go of teh duck button. When you land from taht jump back you jump in the same maner to terh side and swoop forward in teh middle of teh jump. Suprising your oponent and beeing able to counter. (ofcourse that wouldnt work well on pros though XD)

But its just a difrent way of jumping out of the way than the default up we have now.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Besides my ideas to enhance ground fighting to actually make it useful, I just wanted to show a pic of what I was talking about with the animation when someone runs on the ground. It would have no aura and allow the person to be more stealthy.

Another ground animation idea: Right now when a player is hit back by basic melee, after a second or two of flying he does an animation showing himself coming to a halt with effort.

If someone is hit on the ground by basic melee and is able to come to a halt, it could show an animation of him putting hit feet into the ground trying to stop himself, with some rocks being kicked up in the air to make it look nice.
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There should also be a way to rebound off the ground and allow a fast recovery (requiring a fair amount of stamina usage). Right now its really bad news for you if you land near the ground because it means you can be combo'd even more or have a bunch of ki balls thrown at you.

 

[donnierisk]

Nice, I think I know what you mean, like almost like the animation of goku powering up...well kinda.