General Melee Thoughts

[VideoJinx]

What does everyone think about having a melee with "styles".

For example, Goku using punches/kicks would have one fighting style .. while Piccolo had another like.. muy thai for example( Not that this style would be in dbz )

Would people enjoy fighting styles if it didn't restrict a player's movement and was combined with basic melee?

 

[Grega]

Ill say people will say "Hell yeah" but in reality when they play the game they wont even bother to notice it.

 

[john_volkov]

The ideea of Fighing Style it DBZ dose not work verry well , works good for games like mortal Komba and other such

 

[VideoJinx]

2) i've thought of a way to have basic melee be the offensive from a distance melee, and to have adv melee be a close distance fighting system that still gives the player free movement. Basic melee can be linked with adv melee combos, and it's possible to to use basic melee between adv melee hits.. for example

your hit back with a adv melee hit from close rang, then the enemy comes after you with basic melee then comes after you again to transition back into adv melee..which is free moving and NOT LIMITED..

So, what do you guyz think does that sound nice if a player can use basic melee @ any time OR adv melee @ any time without actually "locking on"

The ideea of Fighing Style it DBZ dose not work verry well , works good for games like mortal Komba and other such

but on the contrary =] i think i've had a break through

Also about grabs.. Some people say esf shouldn't have automatic moves.. but i think a grab would be an exception.

Some ideas i had for how a grab "could" work.. PLayers can only be grabbed from the front when not punching or kicking, if successfull you character will knee the opponent in the gut, before teleporting to the side and Bashing the playe'rs back with 2 hands straight down. The opponent will be sent flying to the ground and to recover from this would more then the usuall amount of ki

 

[Tenzo]

Ill say people will say "Hell yeah" but in reality when they play the game they wont even bother to notice it.

Exactly like this!

 

[VideoJinx]

What do people think about

having moves like "kameha" or "spirit bomb" or "galitgun" etc

having an alternate mode like a "Special Attack" ??

Beams in openbeta are small,weak, and have small radiuses for splash damage..

Maybe a special alternate for the attack could be a "Huge Beam" that travels really fast, but is hard to turn, so it's more like a straight shot that's slightly curvable.. the splash damage could be huge as well..

Specials would take building up a special attax meter tho.. and there could even be a button to automatically charge the attack to the minimal damage line of the beam attack.

When other players begin use their special, any other player with a special that's available would hear a "CHIME". This would signal the player to press his Special attax button. So his attack is automatically being charged to the minimal attack line, and the player may press and hold L-Click to power the attack even more.. While charing the attack any other player charging a special would have a Box or Glow around them to make them stand out...

you'd end up seeing alot of beam struggles if this was added..

 

[Grega]

What do people think about

having moves like "kameha" or "spirit bomb" or "galitgun" etc

having an alternate mode like a "Special Attack" ??

Beams in openbeta are small,weak, and have small radiuses for splash damage..

Maybe a special alternate for the attack could be a "Huge Beam" that travels really fast, but is hard to turn, so it's more like a straight shot that's slightly curvable.. the splash damage could be huge as well..

Specials would take building up a special attax meter tho.. and there could even be a button to automatically charge the attack to the minimal damage line of the beam attack.

When other players begin use their special, any other player with a special that's available would hear a "CHIME". This would signal the player to press his Special attax button. So his attack is automatically being charged to the minimal attack line, and the player may press and hold L-Click to power the attack even more.. While charing the attack any other player charging a special would have a Box or Glow around them to make them stand out...

you'd end up seeing alot of beam struggles if this was added..

You would see people runing for the hills and trying to get that one half server killer hit in while they can.

Dont worry. We have quick charging atackes planned allready.
A bit differently and no server killers. But allmost instant shot.

 

[VideoJinx]

alright then,

Ground Melee.. I've thought of a nice way to get it in, and yes it does serve a purpose =].

The purpose of Ground Melee would be to dish out heavier damage.

This would add new dynamics to esf gameplay.

Your Air game may be good, but if your Ground melee isnt just as good then you could be in for a beating if you slip up and get hit to the ground.

When does ground melee happen?

When a player is hit to the ground and "doesn't recover" his/her attacker may come down and activate the ground melee.

Couldn't I just fly away? sure, but not up you can dash-jump to dif spots on the ground and sometimes teleport but not up

but how do I get out of Ground Melee???

Create enough distance between you and your attacker(s) or use an adv melee combo that knocks an opponent upwards which would allow you exit ground melee and continue the combo.

Can other players attack me when I'm on the ground??

Yes, but when on the ground blocking also block's Splash damage.. so all you'd have to do is face the beam to block it.. If they another player came close enough to hit u with melee they'd transition into ground melee as well.

what about telespam..

Welp Teleporting is limited to a slight degree when in a certain mod of melee, you can only teleport so often

 

[Zeonix]

If we have to have styles, I'd rather we be able to choose between an offensive and defensive style on the fly. The offensive style would allow you to swoop faster than the neutral style or whatever you want to call it, but at the cost of increased ki drain. The hits would also cause you to get knocked back farther and faster due to your increased strength and speed, making it easier to knock your opponent into walls or mountains since getting a second melee hit would be much, much harder.

The defensive style would have a slower swoop, with decreased ki drain, and teleportation would use less ki as well. You would do slightly less damage, however, to balance your decreased ki drain. This style would be more about evasion and "outthinking" your opponent than anything else. If you want to go the rage route, use the offensive style.

You should be able to switch between the 3 styles/modes by either holding down a key or toggling them/using the mouse scroller.

All players fit into either one or all categories (offensive, mixed and defensive), but I like the idea of being able to focus on one if I choose to. It's all about options and control over your character.

If you want to hear more, say so and I'll flesh it out.

 

[VideoJinx]

Sounds interesting I would wanna hear more, but i wasn't talking about those kinda style lol Having dif modes would be easier for noobies to adjust.. 1 being easier to control ki.. less exp required.. while another would take more exp to control + the benefits. Seems interesting but im not sure about it



I was talkin about adv melee styles dif styles of combos unique to each character.

But basic melee is transitionable to adv melee and visa-versa

 

[Zeonix]

I was talkin about adv melee styles dif styles of combos unique to each character.

But basic melee is transitionable to adv melee and visa-versa

I think before we go into that kind of style debate, we should have at the very least a draft for advanced melee. You're absolutely right, though. We definitely need to be able to transition from simple melee to advanced melee on the fly, rather than taking us out of the game and forcing us to watch stuff happen.

 

[Snowm@n]

Nixanthros you could not be more right. If we whant a decent advanced melee we must do it like a project, by steps, so we are all discusting the same parameter.

I think we should think the process by objectives and we only make conclusions about each one after mostly agree, and then yes, we have a good well built suggestion to the team.

If I may, lets first discuss about the order of the steps that we should discuss about.

I suggest we discuss by the folowing order:

1 - How should advanced melee be engaged? Or what is the process needed for an atacker to engage adv melee with the atacked?

2 - How should adv melee be constructed in order to keep simplicity, fastness and animated in Half-life engine's possibilities. "and there would be lots of things to discuss here by an order also"

3 - Analising the moves existed in that adv melee what would be the amount of KI and HP lost in battle.

This is just an idea. Advanced melee is going to be the hardest part to make in the game, so we must organize it. Now dont go shooting ideas about the steps I just wrote. Lets first start by giving suggestions of how it should be orgazined in order to facilitate the full process.

What do you think?

-------------------------------

To hard to make I presume....

 

[VideoJinx]

Well, ive been slack on my melee desgin.. but it's pretty solid. When i finish I'll post it here for optimazation/opinions.

Currently it allows these things.

Ground Melee, Air Melee, Complete freedom in all forms melee, except a very slight limitation for Ground melee.

Blocking is a hell of a lot easier, but makes you an easier target to grabbed.

You can transition from basic melee into adv melee or from adv to basic..

Adv melee supplies each character with unique fighting styles, and combos.

What i'm tryin to think about now.. is a better recovery/knockback system.. I mean the one now is okay but as it stands it not very interactive. Hey look I'm helplessly being knocked back.

Heck the knockback could be changed into a beam-melee system.

 

[KYnetiK]

¬_¬

I still dont see whats so drastically wrong with the Outline.

 

[Zeonix]

¬_¬

I still dont see whats so drastically wrong with the Outline.

Probably the fact that it isn't being used.

 

[KYnetiK]

The mechanics around it seems solid enough. Whats holding it back?

 

[Grega]

The mechanics around it seems solid enough. Whats holding it back?

To complex.

And it adds atleast 2 or more buttons into the mix.

Not a good thing for new players.

 

[KYnetiK]

Why is everyone trying to make easy mode?

It only seems complex as a flowchart imo. Hell i got no problems making a melee tutorial in flash to visually guide newbies through it. It doesnt add any more buttons than you would use outside of melee mode. Noobs should expect to be confronted by -advanced- melee. Its supposed to be advanced. Thats why you practice melee bit by bit. Im not saying it should be difficult as hell, just that it shouldnt be on par with basic melee.

The manner on how the punches/kicks and defense are controlled shouldnt be thrown away so hastily. Sure it could be streamlined a bit, but it managed to find a good way to throw attacks and avoid them, providing realtime offense, evasion, and knockbacks. The way the throw was incorporated was awesome. I dont like how the stamina damage is set up in the preset attacks though, nor do i like the hard/soft lock on.

Being able to deliver rapid attacks if my opponent is within range stun them, and use power attack or throw to knock them away is what I thought we were all after.

I also really liked your little knockback system idea Grega, personally I think you should amalgamate what you can from the outline into that. Also Jinx did have an interesting idea with a zone around the player. If an enemy was within range you go into a melee stance and can initiate adv melee without swooping, nor do you need to lock on, you aim at the relevant enemy, or if an enemy is in at the immediate rear, you could have a counter system.

 

[Grega]

Why is everyone trying to make easy mode?

It only seems complex as a flowchart imo. Hell i got no problems making a melee tutorial in flash to visually guide newbies through it. It doesnt add any more buttons than you would use outside of melee mode. Noobs should expect to be confronted by -advanced- melee. Its supposed to be advanced. Thats why you practice melee bit by bit. Im not saying it should be difficult as hell, just that it shouldnt be on par with basic melee.

The manner on how the punches/kicks and defense are controlled shouldnt be thrown away so hastily. Sure it could be streamlined a bit, but it managed to find a good way to throw attacks and avoid them, providing realtime offense, evasion, and knockbacks. The way the throw was incorporated was awesome. I dont like how the stamina damage is set up in the preset attacks though, nor do i like the hard/soft lock on.

Being able to deliver rapid attacks if my opponent is within range stun them, and use power attack or throw to knock them away is what I thought we were all after.

I also really liked your little knockback system idea Grega, personally I think you should amalgamate what you can from the outline into that. Also Jinx did have an interesting idea with a zone around the player. If an enemy was within range you go into a melee stance and can initiate adv melee without swooping, nor do you need to lock on, you aim at the relevant enemy, or if an enemy is in at the immediate rear, you could have a counter system.

Well both those system have one other big problem.

They are even more ping based then the rest of ESF. They could start becoming hard to use on pings over 50.

 

[KYnetiK]

hrmm thats a shame, to be honest I did overlook ping.