Concern and suggestion regarding design documents

New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
55
Best answers
0
As I said a certain area of the design documents really concerned me. I'm refering to an area in the second melee document that says:

"- Extra melee
Involving more mouse movement into simple melee. Right now, to determine a direction, you have
anglehit, but this addition will allow you to choose a direction even without doing that (making it possibly
easier for the newcommers). Basically, when you hit, your mouse movement depends the direction
AND strength of the knockback.
Example, I approach an enemy, aim down rapidly and while doing so, hit the enemy. If I aimed down
slowly, the hit would be less directional and not as strong. With a fast down-movement of the mouse, I
hit him practically downwards and also alot harder.
With this idea in mind, you can create some fun (and hard moves). For instance, you swoop at
someone, turn 360 degrees and then hit. If the system is done right, this would result in a very strong
hit with a long knockback, eliminating the need of only using the swoopbooster to create a long
knockback (even tho that swoopbooster still a must, for other reasons). In other words, the more and
faster you move your mouse while getting a hit, the greater the damage and knockback will be. In
theory, if you rotated 3 times (3x360 degrees), damage would be super high (but just imagine doing
that while swooping) and might even be instant kill. Needs a cap to prevent beeing abused.
Darktooth once mentioned it would be cool if you could determine the direction for a hit. With this
system you can, without the need of complex angles and moves. As long as you hit someone while
moving your mouse to a certain direction, he will go that way more or less. Depening on how fast you
move your mouse and how much you have moved it, damage and knockback will be determined."

This idea just has too many possibilities to be exploited and on top of that it forces players to use a higher sens then they would prefer to be able to use this option. I believe a variable damage modifier based on speed of mouse movement would just kill this game. So I'm offering a suggestion...

Multi melee weapons. This way you can have variation in hit direction by simply using different melee weapons. The degree could be determined by the power of the hit(whether by being higher pl or by doing a more advanced move such as ultra-tele).

Melee weapons:

Standard- straight knockback
Overhand- downward knockback
Kick(think of the flip kicks we have now or a football type kick)- upward
Right hook/kick- leftward
Left hook/kick - rightward
 
New Member
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Mar 6, 2003
Messages
3,999
Best answers
0
You can rest assured that we, The Testing Minions (Beta Testers), will make sure no exploits exist, and that a level and fair playing field exists in the game at all times.
 
New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
55
Best answers
0
You know your the second person to say something like that. You know the whole "don't worry it will be perfect trust me"...While I'm sure the mods dev team and the testers are doing their best no ones perfect and so they are bound to make mistakes somewhere. The only way to maximize gameplay is to make sure those mistakes are in areas that will generally not be noticed.

Yet I imagine several testers/dev members were excited about this idea since it was signed by several people and then put onto the boards. So instead of just complaining about how messed up this option could be I showed why I had a problem with it and offered a possible solution.

I'm sorry this type of response just rubs me the wrong way. Its like saying "yeah ok whatever WE are working on it we don't need YOUR input" except very politely.
 
New Member
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Mar 6, 2003
Messages
3,999
Best answers
0
I had intended it to comfort your obvious concerns about exploits, or potential exploits, being left in the game, but it seems to have had the opposite affect. So let me address your suggestion as well.

somerandomguy said:
Multi melee weapons. This way you can have variation in hit direction by simply using different melee weapons. The degree could be determined by the power of the hit(whether by being higher pl or by doing a more advanced move such as ultra-tele).

Melee weapons:

Standard- straight knockback
Overhand- downward knockback
Kick(think of the flip kicks we have now or a football type kick)- upward
Right hook/kick- leftward
Left hook/kick - rightward
If I understand this correctly, you are suggesting extra selectable melee weapons, instead of just the one that is already in the game.

I can't say I agree with this at all. I think specific hit types as you're suggesting, should be left to advanced melee. Seeing as that's pretty much what you just described.

Setting that aside, let's say it was like that. I have 5 different selectable types of melee. During a fight I have to pick and choose between them and which way I want to hit my enemy. I can't say I'm much of a fan of that either. I would much rather angle myself accordingly and hit them straight back, thus making 4 out of the 5 suggested melee types virtually useless. I know there are many players who would agree with me on that.

Going back to what is already in the outline, with the mouse movements and etc. The way it has been presented is that I can approach my enemy with simple melee and hit him accordingly to where I want depending on my mouse movements. I can see the potential for exploits just as well as you can, but I can also see that it would be extremly hard for someone to make a script to take advantage of that due to the nature of the game. You never know when you're going to hit your opponent. You see an opening and you take it, it doesn't last long at all. Sometimes you even hit by dumb luck.

Your point about mouse sensitivity is a good one. Though it is plainly obvious that the higher the sensitivity the better you will be able to manuver around your opponent. Many people new to the game make the mistake of playing with extremly low sensitivities, and cannot even turn around to keep track of their opponent.

Regardless, in the very excerpt you posted, it plainly says "Needs a cap to prevent beeing abused." Therefore any scripts, or huge advantages you may be foreseeing will not happen. Also try to remember that it was only a single part from 1 of 2 melee concepts, and in the thread itself, Mastasurf stated in red, "the design documents listed here may be under review or modification by the team, and differ from what is actually implemented in the release."

While your suggestion is welcomed, I can't say I agree with any of it, and that your initial concern is precisely the reason we have testers :).
 
New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
55
Best answers
0
Actually my suggestion was in regards to simple melee...Since that is what this area of the document was covering..Direction based on mouse movement. So I suggested multi melee weapons as an alternative to the mouse movement figuring that they wanted a system to allow this type of control on direction. The first melee weapon being your standard same ole while the others would give you the different effects(up, down, left, right simple melee). Heck personally I think the whole concept of variable direction simple melee is pretty bad, but I figured better to offer a solution to what I saw as a problem in the idea(sens requirements and exploitable) then to just say the idea was bad without trying it first.

As for it being hard to exploit I would have to disagree here...The moment I saw this suggestion the way to do so hit me. Granted it wouldn't be perfect but it would be pretty dang good and require considerably less skill to perform. Here allow me to make an example using the general layout but no real code...just so I'm not teaching anyone how to do something like this.

alias +supercheesyhit "somefunction needed for basic melee; any other extras I need"
alias -supercheesyhit "some function to spin and maybe up the spin speed; release all functions after whatever time"

So basicly this script would act as normal when held, but once released then in comes the supercheesy hit. Granted it would take trial and error to get it right, but very very possible. Just need a little timing for the release and boom max hit with max throw back.

I'm also aware that this is simply a concept that has testing to go through and this and that, but I felt the need to point out how exploitable it is if nothing else.
 

sub

Active Member
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Jun 18, 2003
Messages
5,960
Best answers
0
Pain said:
If I understand this correctly, you are suggesting extra selectable melee weapons, instead of just the one that is already in the game.

I can't say I agree with this at all. I think specific hit types as you're suggesting, should be left to advanced melee. Seeing as that's pretty much what you just described.

Setting that aside, let's say it was like that. I have 5 different selectable types of melee. During a fight I have to pick and choose between them and which way I want to hit my enemy. I can't say I'm much of a fan of that either. I would much rather angle myself accordingly and hit them straight back, thus making 4 out of the 5 suggested melee types virtually useless. I know there are many players who would agree with me on that.

Going back to what is already in the outline, with the mouse movements and etc. The way it has been presented is that I can approach my enemy with simple melee and hit him accordingly to where I want depending on my mouse movements. I can see the potential for exploits just as well as you can, but I can also see that it would be extremly hard for someone to make a script to take advantage of that due to the nature of the game. You never know when you're going to hit your opponent. You see an opening and you take it, it doesn't last long at all. Sometimes you even hit by dumb luck.

Your point about mouse sensitivity is a good one. Though it is plainly obvious that the higher the sensitivity the better you will be able to manuver around your opponent. Many people new to the game make the mistake of playing with extremly low sensitivities, and cannot even turn around to keep track of their opponent.

Regardless, in the very excerpt you posted, it plainly says "Needs a cap to prevent beeing abused." Therefore any scripts, or huge advantages you may be foreseeing will not happen. Also try to remember that it was only a single part from 1 of 2 melee concepts, and in the thread itself, Mastasurf stated in red, "the design documents listed here may be under review or modification by the team, and differ from what is actually implemented in the release."

While your suggestion is welcomed, I can't say I agree with any of it, and that your initial concern is precisely the reason we have testers
Pain, I have to agree with him on this. Yes, this type of thing is one of the reason we have testers, but shutting us down like you did in the first post isn't going to help. It's what the devs, the mods, and the testers all did when 1.2 was in development and look at how that turned out. You all may do the best that you can and may do a damn good job at it, but you're bound to miss something. He's only making this thread and I'm only replying to it because we don't want you to miss anything ... no harm done.

Onto the actual idea or reason of concern... Let me say that if the idea suggested in the melee doc. was put into the game, it would ruin ESF for me, someone whose been playing since 1.0. I have a low sensitivity - I am not new to the game. ~{ape}~ Gohan has a generally low sensitivity, he is one of the best if not the best person I know in ESF. Needless to say, he is not new to the game. Something that punishes us for likeing a lower sensitivity and rewards others for preferring a higher sensitivity should not be put into the game.

Now add that to the fact that its scriptable...
 
New Member
★ Black Lounger ★
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Apr 15, 2003
Messages
4,628
Best answers
0
very true, this is slightly biased towards higher sensitivity players, something that wasnt thought off when it was written, maybe it could be dependant on mouse movement related to sensitivity? Personally i dont like the idea of adding extra melee modes just for hitting in directions..... maybe if it was so if you hold a key in adition to the direction you swoop to hit them in a direction (say if im swooping forward and i connect while holding w and s, it'd hit the enemy downwards) it'd work better? if you wanted to hit up while swooping forward you'd hold a and d while swooping forward with w. a and d hit the enemy left or right but not at a 90 degree angle i think that'd be a bit weird, so make it something like 45 degree angle to the left or to the right... I dunno just another rough idea.
 
New Member
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Mar 6, 2003
Messages
3,999
Best answers
0
Ok, let me just put to rest some misunderstandings right now.

1. My first post wasn't intentionally trying to "shoot down" anything. As I said, he was expressing some concern about possible exploits, I was trying to help that concern. If it appeared as though I was saying "stfu" or something similar I apologize.

2. somerandomguy, I'm aware your suggestion was for simple melee. I think you may have misread my post. I made mention of it being similar to what advanced melee is already like, but I did not actually interpret your suggestion to be for advanced melee.

3. Don't quote me on this, but I would assume that, IF this idea were implimented, that it would be geared towards lower sensitivities, and capped before higher sensitivities got too much of an edge. Therefore making it a moot point about sensitivity, and keeping low-sens-veterans happy.

somerandomguy, you've got me on that script thing. It looks like it would indeed be quite simple to create, but refering back to point 3, the damage cap should take care of that.
 
New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
55
Best answers
0
Good idea davidskiwan...I just wanted to get it away from mouse movement with my suggestion and thats the first idea that popped into my head. Trust me though mouse movement is very very exploitable I just went and double checked the commands needed. With enough trial and error I could have it spin 5000 times and hit if I really wanted it to...I know pain mentioned putting limits on it I'm just saying if 5000 spins is possible then whatever limit is put into place can easily be scripted.

Note: seems we just posted at the same time Pain. Don't worry about it man I know that isn't how you intended to come across...I just kept hearing "oh don't worry about it" and you know what I was worried. Just got a little frustrating.
 
New Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
807
Best answers
0
Why would some one make a script that lets them almost automatically win. People play the game to get a challenge and to have fun not to say oh im beating u because if they made the script they would get incredibly bored just beating every one when no one would beat them it would be just dumb and pointless because if they were cheating you could just kick them out of your server no harm done.
 
New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
55
Best answers
0
Kasey said:
Why would some one make a script that lets them almost automatically win. People play the game to get a challenge and to have fun not to say oh im beating u because if they made the script they would get incredibly bored just beating every one when no one would beat them it would be just dumb and pointless because if they were cheating you could just kick them out of your server no harm done.
Yes why would someone do that...why would someone make an autoaim? or a wallhack? or any of a thousand ways to get an edge....because to most people its not just about a challenge and having fun. There are a lot of people out there who are not having fun unless they are winning and if you don't plan for them they will take advantage of what is there.
 
New Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Messages
807
Best answers
0
somerandomguy said:
Yes why would someone do that...why would someone make an autoaim? or a wallhack? or any of a thousand ways to get an edge....because to most people its not just about a challenge and having fun. There are a lot of people out there who are not having fun unless they are winning and if you don't plan for them they will take advantage of what is there.
Like I said earlier, kick them out of your server. And doesn't that thing on ESF like block 99% of that stuff instantly? instaban or whatever its called.
 
New Member
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
1,388
Best answers
0
In the end the higher sensitivity players will always have the edge over anything senitive related, and since this is a fps game, I suggest you should tone up your sensitivity and pracitice with it. Caping the sensitivity movements for this idea is like saying "Its not fair when high sensitivity players play vs lower ones" and setting a turning sensitivity cap. o_O
 
New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
55
Best answers
0
RavenTrunks said:
In the end the higher sensitivity players will always have the edge over anything senitive related, and since this is a fps game, I suggest you should tone up your sensitivity and pracitice with it. Caping the sensitivity movements for this idea is like saying "Its not fair when high sensitivity players play vs lower ones" and setting a turning sensitivity cap. o_O
I'm sorry but I call elitist bs here. I'm going to take a guess and go by the line of thought you are thinking anything that requires mouse movement higher sens is better. Well you know what I play all types of video games and usually use a low-medium mouse sens(its game dependant). Even after all these years I can't say I ever felt at a disadvantage due to my mouse sens. This is is even speaking from experience in top 10 competition in fast paced fps games.

It really comes off as you are saying "well I like a high sens so everyone should"...As I have said before mouse sens is all personal preference. Its much like the wasd, esdf, arrows, and numpad setups....Personally I can't see how anyone can use anything but wasd, but I don't go so far as to try and stop them from using what they want. Thats exactly what it sounds like your post is saying.

And no capping the sens movements for that idea isn't like that at all its more like "Well lets not force someone with a low sens to use something 10-30x's what he is used to just so that he can use a specific mechanic within the game". Personally I would hope a mouse movement idea like this would not get put in, but if it just had to it should have only 1 result and not variable results based on speed of mouse movement. And to have variable damage based on speed is just beyond crazy. It would be like giving "twitch" gamers a damage bonus if they can move their mouse fast enough...And all of this is ignoring how exploitable such a system would be.
 
New Member
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
4,022
Best answers
0
Kasey said:
Like I said earlier, kick them out of your server. And doesn't that thing on ESF like block 99% of that stuff instantly? instaban or whatever its called.
That doesn't work if they aren't playing on YOUR server.

If you're on ESF-World, and someone does crap like that, there's nothing you can do if there isn't an admin around.
 
New Member
★ Black Lounger ★
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Apr 15, 2003
Messages
4,628
Best answers
0
I'd like to add to my suggestion that i mentioned earlier, i'll refer to the move as an Angle hit:

If it was so if you hold a key in adition to the direction you swoop to angle hit them in a direction (say if im swooping forward and i connect while holding w and s, it'd hit the enemy downwards) it'd work better. If you wanted to angle hit up while swooping forward you'd hold a and d while swooping forward with w. Holding a or d while angle hitting the enemy would propell them left or right but not at a 90 degree angle i think that'd be a bit weird, so make it something like 45 degree angle to the left or to the right. To add to that, if somebody blocks and holds a direction while blocking which happens to be same direction that the other player is holding for an angle hit, and they are successfully aimed at the enemy, instead of just blocking they would counter it, by dodgeing the direction and making a simple melee hit of their own in the opposite direction (say the attacker attacks with a 2 handed down blow, and the defender moves to the side as he strikes and hits him horizontally, if the attack attacks with a right hook, the defender either ducks or leaps above the attack and smacks him down/up). However a standard simple melee hit could not be countered, and a wrong directional guess while blocking wud mean you wud block normally.

I just think this'd spruce up the game a little, add more depth, and ive been wanting to find a way to include counters for ages.
 
New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
55
Best answers
0
David I really like that idea its fleshing out really well. A small suggestion to that idea though...If you attempt the counter you recieve full knockback or just somewhere between mini-knockback and full from the hit if you miss. That way theres a minus to it while not totally punishing the person. This is coming from the mention of "mini-knockbak" while blocking in the second melee document.
 
New Member
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
4,022
Best answers
0
somerandomguy said:
David I really like that idea its fleshing out really well. A small suggestion to that idea though...If you attempt the counter you recieve full knockback or just somewhere between mini-knockback and full from the hit if you miss. That way theres a minus to it while not totally punishing the person. This is coming from the mention of "mini-knockbak" while blocking in the second melee document.
I second that.

However, I think the idea of holding a+d to do a sideways angle hit thing is a little complicated and unintuitive.
 
New Member
★ Black Lounger ★
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Apr 15, 2003
Messages
4,628
Best answers
0
yeah good idea randomguy =P, but it wud only be if you choose to try to counter (by holding a direction in block), because remember sometimes they might just go for a standard simple melee

btw, its not a sideways angle hit when u hold a+d its an upwards hit, because you cant hold w while swooping forward and then also hold it specially for an angle hit, i'd like simple melee to remain as it is but being able to do angled hit would be nice for simple melee combo's. Also The direction you are swooping in would make the angles relative, say im swooping left, d will become the downwards hit, and w+s becomes the upwards hit. There's a minus to trying to do this too, as it may be hard to continue your chainswoop if you are busy holding an additional key down.
 
New Member
💻 Oldtimer
Joined
Apr 14, 2005
Messages
4,022
Best answers
0
Davidskiwan said:
yeah good idea randomguy =P, but it wud only be if you choose to try to counter (by holding a direction in block), because remember sometimes they might just go for a standard simple melee

btw, its not a sideways angle hit when u hold a+d its an upwards hit, because you cant hold w while swooping forward and then also hold it specially for an angle hit, i'd like simple melee to remain as it is but being able to do angled hit would be nice for simple melee combo's. Also The direction you are swooping in would make the angles relative, say im swooping left, d will become the downwards hit, and w+s becomes the upwards hit. There's a minus to trying to do this too, as it may be hard to continue your chainswoop if you are busy holding an additional key down.
:3 I see, I must've misunderstood then. Sounds cool.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top