Catholic Barbeque

[fryd4good]

Alright. Well, the topic of this thread shall be... what are your views on the nature of the Catholic Church? Do you believe that it's a thoroughly corrupt spawn of the underworld sent to devastate humanity with its radical views? Or just the opposite? I'm personally a Catholic, though you'll find I'm more flexible than many of you think.

 

[Pain]

the earth is the center of the universe.
the earth is flat.
lets not speak out about the billions of people being slaughtered.
we hate *** people but our priests molesting little boys is ok.

these are just a few of the things the church has been wrong about. the sad part is, when these things were believed to be true, people could not argue against it. some very inteligent people spoke out against the church because they had a differnet view, and they were... lets say, taken "care" of by the church.
this brings me to the next point of religious wars fought over religion. a pointless waste of life. it is impossible to comprehend how many people have been slaughted with the idea that "you have to belive this or ill kill you and everyone you know". thankfully they cant do that anymore, but the church still has a large influence on many people.

as for the main point of the topic
"Do you believe that it's a thoroughly corrupt spawn of the underworld sent to devastate humanity with its radical views?" yes, yes i do.

 

[fryd4good]

Alright. Let's see. The Dark Ages, the Spanish Inquisition. The Catholic Church tortures and kills hundreds or thousands of people from different religions for not complying to the "correct" view. Is this barbaric? Yes. Is it wrong? Of course it is. However, we have to remember something. They weren't called the Dark Ages for no reason. You'll find that throughout history many atrocities have occurred. Mostly for political views, not religious ones. The early Catholic Church was only as corrupt as the time in which it existed. Now, let's look at today's Catholic Church. When was the last time the Pope ordered hundreds of people to be burned at the stake for heresy? It's been quite a while. You'll find that yes, some Catholic priests molested children. These priests in no way reflect the entirety of the Church, and actually made up about, oh... 0.01% of the priesthood. In the same way, when we think Terrorist, what do most people think of now? Muslim radicals? This doesn't mean all Muslims are suicidal terrorists. Very very few are. The men who've molested children are already in jail paying with their lives. One at least has already been killed by another prison inmate. They aren't priests. Never were, spiritually. All the bishops that supported them are being deposed. Why? Because what they did doesn't reflect the Catholic Church as a whole. Also, perhaps we've all failed to recognize how many charity organizations are completely funded by the Catholic Church. The lives saved far outweigh those ruined by the few individual non-priests. Things so easily forgotten. And yes, of course, the Catholic Church disapproves of ***s. When inclined to truly believe something, yes, one does let his or her views be known. If you don't like it, you don't have to listen. If you feel fine with people being ***, then you DON'T have to listen to us. Since we don't feel fine about it, we don't HAVE to be fine with it. It's our right to express our views. There's no way we can force you to believe anything we do. There, my fingers hurt now. And that's my opinion.

 

[Pain]

There, my fingers hurt now. And that's my opinion.

lmao

im not really much of an authority on the church, someone else take over and keep this alive, these things are fun.

 

[NeLo]

Doesnt matter to me cuz even the Catholics have really really weird ways. All i can say is...what they believe is what they believe. Im not gonna say they suck or anything im just gonna say id rather stay away from them.

 

[fryd4good]

"Weird".... alright. Let's all remember that bias about a group of people because you DON'T understand them has caused more loss of life than anything the Catholic Church has ever done. Possibly even part of the mistakes the early Church made.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Alright. Let's see. The Dark Ages, the Spanish Inquisition. The Catholic Church tortures and kills hundreds or thousands of people from different religions for not complying to the "correct" view. Is this barbaric? Yes. Is it wrong? Of course it is. However, we have to remember something. They weren't called the Dark Ages for no reason.

The fact that all this happened during a period called the "Dark Ages" is irrelevant. They are called the dark ages because thats what we choose to call them. I doubt whoever lived in that era called it the Dark Ages... This all didn't happen because people new they were living in the "Dark Ages." We have made that the Dark Ages.

As long as the Church believes they have authority over laws and the government, they are corrupt in my opinion.

 

[fryd4good]

Yes... and we have dubbed it the Dark Ages for a reason. The kings and queens of Britain were constantly lopping off heads around that time and a bit later. Things were done differently back than, because of the culture of the time. The Catholic Church at that time doesn't remotely resemble the Church today.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Everything is different now, we have human rights, but apparently the Church doesn't believe in equal rights among humanity do they?

 

[fryd4good]

If you're going to make a broad statement like that, at least bother to give an example. There's nothing I can say to a statement that has no substance.

Because unless you do give an example, all I can do is contradict you... the Church DOES believe in equal rights. However, if you believe it doesn't... well?

 

[Optimus Prime]

*** marriage, straights can marry, but ***s can't. Where's the equal rights there.

Recently by me, there was a a *** guy who wanted to take a male date to his prom at a catholic school, he wasn't allowed, he took it to court and was allowed to take his date by a legally binding court order.

 

[SailorAlea]

Fryd4good, you seem to forget.. that the main problem with the child molestors of the Catholic Church, wasn't with the molestors. It was with the Church, for failing to even remotely punish the priests. They moved them around, from neighborhood to neighborhood, thinking that would solve the sick, twisted mentality of the molesting priests?

The Church adamantly denied it for about 3 months, then finally admitted it. So not only did they do nothing when the children were being molested, not only did the not punish the priests, they lied about it.. then only after public outrage was it admitted.

You keep saying the Catholic Church wasn't bad for what it did, in the Middle Ages.. Yes, there were others who were violent and harsh, like they were--not not to that degree. More people have been killed in the name of Christianity then any other cause. The world wars, the Korean war, the Vietnam conflict, the two 'wars' in Iraq.. Not even cumulatively do they compare.

The Church is corrupt now, as it was foolishly hostile and arrogant then. There are no excuses for what it has done.. and admitting to something you lied about in the first place, is not admirable.

 

[fryd4good]

Well, let's see. Why do Catholics not allow *** marriages within the CATHOLIC Church. Hmm. Well, Catholics believe homosexuality is wrong. That's what we believe. Argue against it, that's our belief, and we have the right to uphold our own beliefs just as much as you have a right to uphold yours. A *** person is no less of a person than anyone else. We believe that ALL humans were made in the imagine and likeness OF God, and thus should be treated with respect and dignity. However, since we believe homosexuality is wrong, under what system of logic should we allow *** marriages within our own Church? Let them be married in the eyes of the government, or whatever other religion they want. However, as long as we can hold our own beliefs, noone can force us to accept what we believe to be wrong. And when they can force us is when America's democracy has truly failed.

First of all, the child molesting issue was only "disguised" by a few bishops. The entire Church was not involved in that. Actually, very VERY rarely does the Church hold a gathering that involves a large portion of it. The bishops are entrusted to uphold what we believe. The bishops, in this case, betrayed the trust of the Church. They are currently on the way to becoming non-bishops.

In the name of Christianity. Yes, but just because you claim to be a Christian doesn't make you one. You have to live like a Christian, not just claim the title, to be one. Killing "in the name of the Church" was never really part of the Church as it is today. I'm trying to say that the Church, as it is now, is a COMPLETELY different structure than the Middle and Dark Ages' Church. I freely admit the corruption of the Church as it was then. What I deny is the corruption of the Church as it is now. I've been educated by more good, incredibly intelligent men who are priests of this so-called "corrupt" organization than most people ever get a chance to meet in their life. And you know what? I'm a better man for it. The point is, one cannot judge the condition of the whole on the actions of a few. I've known so many good men that have had their names ruined by a miniscule number of people. But they do what they do still -- because they truly believe in it. And believe me, you would be hard pressed to find a more honorable, trustworthy, and morally correct group of men than most Catholic priests I've known.

 

[SailorAlea]

I'm not sure where homosexuality came into a response of -my- post, but I might as well respond.

You're married by the state, by the way. Not the Church. That priest who marries a person in a Church, has the authority placed in them by the state of (wherever you are), -not- by "God."

They say, "By the power vested in me by God," (etc) but you need a -marriage license.- If you're married by a court official they say, 'By the power vested in me by the State of Virginia,' (w/e for your state.).. So the question isn't up to the Church, it's to the Senate and House to decide whether same-sex marriage is allowed.

As for you saying earlier that the Catholic Church believes in equal rights--are you joking? Ever heard of a little thing called 'the feminist movement'? Black slavery? Homosexuals in general?

 

[fryd4good]

Alright, and I was responding to his, not your, post. Anyhow. The Church could care less about the State's marriage power. It's convenient to become married in both Church and State at once, however if you become married ONLY in the State the Church will not recognize it. If you get a divorce in the STATE, you're considered married still for all purposes concerning the Church. Hope that clears things up.

And equal rights? Yes. Black slavery. Oh, right, now the Church is responsible for that? Mm hmm. Right. The feminist movement. Homosexuals in general? First of all, as far as I've noticed, the only thing that the Church disallows women from becoming is priests. There's a good reason for that, oh, involving a thousand or more years of tradition not to be broken for the sole purpose of appearing politically correct (That's right, even in the Middle Ages there were good Christians, they didn't all just suddenly poof into existence a while ago). Homosexuality? Have we not talked enough about this? What more do you want?

 

[Duece]

I think all religions have their bad sides at a time or another. All religions are messed up in a way or another and have done evil things in the past.
I dont think we should judge these indivisuals right now thats for the courts to do now and ultimately their god.

from crusades to holly wars yup

ummm also i think its stupid to go against the entire catholic religion based on the actions of certain indivusuals. also there not the only ones i recal before the catholic incedent there was a christian incedent in like oregon i think it was one of the middle states but it got burried quick i think the oj simpsons trials were on back then.

 

[Arthos]

I don't matter anymore.

 

[SailorAlea]

Alright, and I was responding to his, not your, post. Anyhow. The Church could care less about the State's marriage power. It's convenient to become married in both Church and State at once, however if you become married ONLY in the State the Church will not recognize it. If you get a divorce in the STATE, you're considered married still for all purposes concerning the Church. Hope that clears things up.

And equal rights? Yes. Black slavery. Oh, right, now the Church is responsible for that? Mm hmm. Right. The feminist movement. Homosexuals in general? First of all, as far as I've noticed, the only thing that the Church disallows women from becoming is priests. There's a good reason for that, oh, involving a thousand or more years of tradition not to be broken for the sole purpose of appearing politically correct (That's right, even in the Middle Ages there were good Christians, they didn't all just suddenly poof into existence a while ago). Homosexuality? Have we not talked enough about this? What more do you want?

Regarding equal rights.. There are actually verses in the Bible which support slavery, and I can find them if you wish. The Catholic Church has denounced homosexuality countless times, and as for the feminist movement, the Church helped further female stereotypes of women in the early 1900's(there are numerous books on this)

I am just saying, you claimed the Catholic Church to support equal rights--when it doesn't, even today--, but in it's entire past, in one form or another, it has often spread unequal treatment by allowing others to justify this behavior, with rhetoric.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

@ arthos: But warnings : :warning: : do.

 

[Majin_You]

http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?postid=303197&highlight=religion#post303197

I would like everyone to bear this post in mind. The last time we had a discussion about this, things got ugly, and I won't hesitate to hand out warnings this time. I am not accusing any of you of anything, but I would like it greatly if the thread did NOT turn out the way this one did.