2012 US election thread - keep it civil

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Well said, I know of the Robber Barons, and there is a big difference between that kind of businessman and an honest capitalist. Many people are not aware of the difference (which is why "honest capitalist" sounds kind of funny!). Many Robber Barons profited by influencing government to make regulations, or subsidize their industry. Real Entrepreneurs succeeded by observing the market and providing a newer, higher quality, lower price or better service than it's competitors, without the help of any government subsidy. People pay income tax when they can barely pay rent, but it used to be less than 10%(I think) of the population who had to pay. It's not easy to save money or grow a business these days and it's largely due to the mess of obstacles like regulatory bodies, licensing & standards, and interest rates. Robber Barons succeeded by influencing those obstacles, and their ongoing influence will keep everyone elses face in the pillow while they get off, until a real leader steps up and finds a solution.
Taxes are a funny thing, because they only really screw the middle class and lower upper class. For the upper class, money grows on trees, and for the lower class, one or two babies offsets your income tax. Middle class pays, lower class pays nothing but *****es that the guys at the top pay less, when that top 1% is paying some 70% of the nations bills.

I'm a fan of everyone pays a flat rate, and government gets the minimum it needs to do what it does. No more loopholes, for anyone, and no more unfair tax brackets. Government lives inside its means, and does not continue on this path where it absorbs the ability of the upper middle and lower upper class to provide jobs for everyone else.
 
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All I know is that being a small business, by the time I pay the GST and Income Tax I've been taxed about 33-38% and make less than 30K per year, it's crippling. Regulations in my industry create an unfair restriction of trade where people who offer similar services have an unfair advantage. There's a point when getting rich that you have more money than you need. Anyone under that level should be tax exempt.

But you're right, if everyone paid a flat rate to cover basic government expenses, the rich wouldn't have the leverage they have now. As it is now, if the super wealthy get pissed and take their business out of the country, who pays our bills? If we all pay a flat rate for the basics, we'd be independent of them at least on that basic level. However in that model I still believe those at the top need to be investing their money to better the country. It's like they're investors of a company, and they are happy to take the profits, but no matter how much surplus they make, they don't put a penny into bettering their employees working conditions.
 
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However in that model I still believe those at the top need to be investing their money to better the country. It's like they're investors of a company, and they are happy to take the profits, but no matter how much surplus they make, they don't put a penny into bettering their employees working conditions.
This is why the rich run for office, when they do it right, they make America job friendly by making it business friendly, when they do it wrong they use government to create business opportunity only for a select few, both Obama and Bush have plenty of examples of this, it is straight up picking winners and losers.
 
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Here is the thing about giving some leeway to companies and taxes. If you have ever worked a shitty job like working for a company like Food Lion, Fred Myers, Walmart, or something like that, then you know the company even when given leeway on taxes and expenses, they wouldn't try to create more jobs. They would still try to get rid of the full time employees and everything still because they don't really care about anyone who isn't helping them get money. The local company called Food Lion hasn't even paid it's Taxes in North Carolina. Which makes me wonder if Delhaze ( Owns Food Lion and multiple other companies) has paid their taxes in other states.

You should know they wouldn't want to spend more money. Food Lion just built a new Food Lion... after closing 162 of them last year.
 
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Here is the thing about giving some leeway to companies and taxes. If you have ever worked a shitty job like working for a company like Food Lion, Fred Myers, Walmart, or something like that, then you know the company even when given leeway on taxes and expenses, they wouldn't try to create more jobs. They would still try to get rid of the full time employees and everything still because they don't really care about anyone who isn't helping them get money. The local company called Food Lion hasn't even paid it's Taxes in North Carolina. Which makes me wonder if Delhaze ( Owns Food Lion and multiple other companies) has paid their taxes in other states.

You should know they wouldn't want to spend more money. Food Lion just built a new Food Lion... after closing 162 of them last year.
Those are bad jobs, those aren't the companies we're talking about either. I'm talking about the mom and pop pizza shops, the small company around the corner from me that employs less than a hundred people, but makes specialized parts for the F-22 and F-35. I'm talking about the small lumber joint next door that employs no more than 20 . . . the pizza shop is an ass job for the cashiers, but the 6 managers make nice money, contributing jobs, all squeezed by attempts to pop the zit at the very, very top.

A zit that includes our political class.
 
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Like I said before, what we're discussing is the differentiation of a business that succeeds by supply and demand, and one that succeeds using their resources to restrict business for their competitors. If we understand that difference we can see that capitalism isn't the problem, it's that the villains hide behind the guise of capitalism (the same way middle eastern terrorists may hide behind Islam). The result is a misdirection of blame. There's a huge ethical difference here. Honest businesses think about how they can better serve the consumer, dishonest businesses think about how they can sabotage their competition and exploit their consumers and employees. The result is that the jobs they create are paying the bare minimum wage while offering little room for promotion. For many people that kind of job is the only opportunity they have. Think about it, you work a miserable, dead-end repetitive job, and you earn only enough money for rent in a shitty neighbourhood and cheap food. That's about as close to slavery as you can get these days. Whether inadvertent or on purpose, the super-rich create the jobs that keep the lower class from rising up.


Edit: Here's something I was looking for a few posts back

“I will give you an example of how race affects my life. I live in a place called Alpine, New Jersey. Live in Alpine, New Jersey, right? My house costs millions of dollars. [some whistles and cheers from the audience] Don’t hate the player, hate the game. In my neighborhood, there are four black people. Hundreds of houses, four black people. Who are these black people? Well, there’s me, Mary J. Blige, Jay-Z and Eddie Murphy. Only black people in the whole neighborhood. So let’s break it down, let’s break it down: me, I’m a decent comedian. I’m a’ight. [applause] Mary J. Blige, one of the greatest R&B singers to ever walk the Earth. Jay-Z, one of the greatest rappers to ever live. Eddie Murphy, one of the funniest actors to ever, ever do it. Do you know what the white man who lives next door to me does for a living? He’s a ******* dentist! He ain’t the best dentist in the world…he ain’t going to the dental hall of fame…he don’t get plaques for getting rid of plaque. He’s just a yank-your-tooth-out dentist. See, the black man gotta fly to get to somethin’ the white man can walk to.”

- Chris Rock
Source: africa-will-unite
 
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Like I said before, what we're discussing is the differentiation of a business that succeeds by supply and demand, and one that succeeds using their resources to restrict business for their competitors. If we understand that difference we can see that capitalism isn't the problem, it's that the villains hide behind the guise of capitalism (the same way middle eastern terrorists may hide behind Islam). The result is a misdirection of blame. There's a huge ethical difference here. Honest businesses think about how they can better serve the consumer, dishonest businesses think about how they can sabotage their competition and exploit their consumers and employees. The result is that the jobs they create are paying the bare minimum wage while offering little room for promotion. For many people that kind of job is the only opportunity they have. Think about it, you work a miserable, dead-end repetitive job, and you earn only enough money for rent in a shitty neighbourhood and cheap food. That's about as close to slavery as you can get these days. Whether inadvertent or on purpose, the super-rich create the jobs that keep the lower class from rising up.


Edit: Here's something I was looking for a few posts back

“I will give you an example of how race affects my life. I live in a place called Alpine, New Jersey. Live in Alpine, New Jersey, right? My house costs millions of dollars. [some whistles and cheers from the audience] Don’t hate the player, hate the game. In my neighborhood, there are four black people. Hundreds of houses, four black people. Who are these black people? Well, there’s me, Mary J. Blige, Jay-Z and Eddie Murphy. Only black people in the whole neighborhood. So let’s break it down, let’s break it down: me, I’m a decent comedian. I’m a’ight. [applause] Mary J. Blige, one of the greatest R&B singers to ever walk the Earth. Jay-Z, one of the greatest rappers to ever live. Eddie Murphy, one of the funniest actors to ever, ever do it. Do you know what the white man who lives next door to me does for a living? He’s a ******* dentist! He ain’t the best dentist in the world…he ain’t going to the dental hall of fame…he don’t get plaques for getting rid of plaque. He’s just a yank-your-tooth-out dentist. See, the black man gotta fly to get to somethin’ the white man can walk to.”

- Chris Rock
Source: africa-will-unite
The only thing stopping a black man from becoming a dentist is the lack of college funds to get to dentistry school. The only thing stopping that is a desire to excel at schooling and getting a proper grade school education along the way. That is squarely both parties fault, watch waiting for superman, a documentary on schools, to see what I'm talking about. In this case I think your better off barking up that tree, and listening to one Bill Cosby about the causes of black poverty.
 

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The only thing stopping a black man from becoming a dentist is the lack of college funds to get to dentistry school. The only thing stopping that is a desire to excel at schooling and getting a proper grade school education along the way. That is squarely both parties fault, watch waiting for superman, a documentary on schools, to see what I'm talking about. In this case I think your better off barking up that tree, and listening to one Bill Cosby about the causes of black poverty.
I grew up outside Baltimore and in DC for a lot of my younger life, we were poor as shit. However now I'm on my way doing what I love working for a radio station.

Oh yea I' m white.



This actually wasn't a counterpoint to anything, I was just wanting to let yall know. 'Merica.
 
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So who's excited?

Like every election, the world is hoping for a democrat to win.
Usually this is because America seems to fair better with a democrat at the wheel, economically speaking anyway.
(Which has a positive impact on the rest of the world.)
 
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Here you have it. Two terms!
 
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Haha truthfully he didn't win in a sense but he did. He won 11/50 states. Those states just happened to be the big ballers. I am happy to say he won.

On a side note-

Washington State and Colorado leaglized the recreational use of Weed.

We also have another state to legalize Same Sex Marriage. America is slowly moving up.
 
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Yay Obama! And Yay Colorado! You can walk around with up to 28.5 grams of that dank green sticky stuff. -That's like a month's supply! Now the police there can stop wasting so much money and time on nonesense...
 
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Haha truthfully he didn't win in a sense but he did. He won 11/50 states. Those states just happened to be the big ballers. I am happy to say he won.

On a side note-

Washington State and Colorado leaglized the recreational use of Weed.

We also have another state to legalize Same Sex Marriage. America is slowly moving up.
Time to move from israel. On the way they should ban tobacco
 
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Glad to see Obama won. I can imagine how republicans feel about this though, bush got a second term too, and the opposition still doesn't understand that.

If people would like to discuss the topic of weed & tobacco, you should really make a separate thread.
 
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Well, I sincerely hope I'm wrong, and I sincerely hope he does right by the country he serves. He now has the distinction of being the first president reelected at 8% unemployment and racking up the most debt by any US President. Now that its his economy and his own mess he inherited, I wonder who he's going to blame.
 

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