ESF: The Complete Player

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The rules allow exploiting. You defend such rules. You're stupid. It's really that simple, and your pathetic attempts to justify those rules by bringing up ridiculous arguments don't do you any favor.
Exploiting that seems generally accepted in-game, by the best players that have been around and has become part of the gameplay as a positive addition.
The arguments are ridiculous in your eyes, that's cool - you are entitled to have your fervent views on the matter. Using all of these abject words doesn't strengthen your case. I don't see why you have to argue in that tone..

You dont need a full bar to do ceilling hits, you can start off with less than that and charge inbetween.
I can understand not fighting near walls but avoiding ceilling hits when the height of the map is super small and 1 punch from below can make you bounce off of it when your 2/3 from the ground is almost impossible, especially when you cannot be near the ground as well because you can get roll hit and lose 80% of your hp.
There might be skill in doing it, but theres no skill in "baiting" people into it whatsoever and it doesnt even make sense, oh you managed to hit and outplay your opponent 5 or 6 times ? too bad you are 10 feet away from the ceilling and you died, better luck next time.
If you're low ki, you will lose your momentum coz you have to charge more than you hit.

And of course it makes sense to bait people, you bait people into stuff in most games. In fact most of ESF dueling is baiting - You bait them to swoop straight at you or to be in one position so you can angle that position, you bait them to attack, you "fake attack" to make them counter an attack that's never happened to counter that attack. ESF is a big mind game and baiting is a crucial part of dueling.

Anyway gentlemen, it appears as we've reached an impasse. Out of courtesy I'd recommend we either continue in PMs or just leave it.

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TL; DR
Some peeps seem to think ceiling hits are stupid because you cannot recover from it and it wasn't the developers' intention to let it happen.

Alex, Tiny (?) and I think it's cool because it's become part of the ESF meta and part of dueling, and that it should be punishable to be caught out in your own mistakes. And like many other things that probably weren't the developers' intention it's grown to be part of the game and the community.
 
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I don't know about Sailent but while making this short video I had two purposes - entertainment and reaction. I wondered how people who never had an opportunity to play this game for real are going to react. Let me tell you something, for the last time - people who created this game had no idea about it's potential, that it can be played in such a way. It's like the invention of fireworks. Hlev here is trying to judge the game from developer's perspective but he doesn't understand the fact that he never played and dedicated himself to this game for years. Legends before us created the rules, we created the rules. We know what is acceptable to a certain limit and what is not. No one is spamming roof hits, if we understand that 3 max is enough then that's the way it is. If you cannot adapt yourself to the rules, you're not good enough and you need to get better. When you become that, you will understand the whole purpose because you will be able to judge. There's nothing to discuss here really, Shadi is a good friend of mine and he explained everything.
 
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Yes, the core of the game is baiting but i find a bit unfair to get killed in 1 go just because you are near the ceilling, the maps are so small its almost impossible.
Songokussjgss you made a thread in the other day complaining about 10x melee that insta kill you which is roughly the same thing, do you even know what weยดre talking about ?
 
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Personally most fun i had with 1.2.3 was right after it was released. When everything was free regin. Instahits, advanced speed, blocklaming, attack laming, rollstop, rollhit and so on. People were using all that and they were having fun with it. Competition was there, but competitive ego was nowhere in sight. We didnt care about scripts or anything, the only thing we cared about was having fun. Especially since most exploits canceled each other out. Attack abd block laming, rollhit and rollstop and so on.

Then people started banning one exploit after another from servers. And whats left is you are allowed to do an exploit with ground hits dealing 2x damage for up to 3, but you are not allowed to use the rollstop exploit? Thats about the time i started calling BS and stopped playing.
 
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Yes, the core of the game is baiting but i find a bit unfair to get killed in 1 go just because you are near the ceilling, the maps are so small its almost impossible.
Songokussjgss you made a thread in the other day complaining about 10x melee that insta kill you which is roughly the same thing, do you even know what weยดre talking about ?
I don't mean to sound harsh but it's really not that hard...if you find it unfair then have it in mind when you're dueling. Try to expose your enemy to the exact same thing, a lot of the maps are big it just happens to be esf_cell_games_night that's the most popular duel map. You just have to adapt to the environment you're in really. Guess this is coming from a more elitist viewpoint though, as I put a lot of effort into becoming better at this game at some point in my life.

Personally most fun i had with 1.2.3 was right after it was released. When everything was free regin. Instahits, advanced speed, blocklaming, attack laming, rollstop, rollhit and so on. People were using all that and they were having fun with it. Competition was there, but competitive ego was nowhere in sight. We didnt care about scripts or anything, the only thing we cared about was having fun. Especially since most exploits canceled each other out. Attack abd block laming, rollhit and rollstop and so on.

Then people started banning one exploit after another from servers. And whats left is you are allowed to do an exploit with ground hits dealing 2x damage for up to 3, but you are not allowed to use the rollstop exploit? Thats about the time i started calling BS and stopped playing.
I'm impressed you stayed around this long in the community without playing the game, kudos for that. And yea I can see how that could have been frustrating.
 
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I don't mean to sound harsh but it's really not that hard...if you find it unfair then have it in mind when you're dueling. Try to expose your enemy to the exact same thing, a lot of the maps are big it just happens to be esf_cell_games_night that's the most popular duel map. You just have to adapt to the environment you're in really. Guess this is coming from a more elitist viewpoint though, as I put a lot of effort into becoming better at this game at some point in my life.



I'm impressed you stayed around this long in the community without playing the game, kudos for that. And yea I can see how that could have been frustrating.
Oh ive played the game. I just didnt join duels. As far as public servers go, i tend to still use the old tricks. Sure they were "bannable" in the past, but that was up to about 2009 after that people kinda totally forgot about them.

Besides i dont use those things if i dont need to. Usually i would mess round shooting a beam or 2, using both types of melee and so on. But shooting a kiblast after each knockback kinda got in to my blood. It used to be as bad as a reflex action XD
 
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If I'm able to catch the enemy more than they me, then naturally I should be the one to win. 2 basic melee hits each time, plus whatever damage they receive from crashing into something. THIS IS SKILL. Now if I catch the enemy 10 times but he catches me once and pounds me into the ceiling until I die, it's bullshit, unfair, unskillful and puts the score in favor of the player who abuses the exploits. This is not how it's supposed to be and if you're in any way against this you're simply retarded. This isn't subjective at all, this is common sense.
 
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If I'm able to catch the enemy more than they me, then naturally I should be the one to win. 2 basic melee hits each time, plus whatever damage they receive from crashing into something. THIS IS SKILL. Now if I catch the enemy 10 times but he catches me once and pounds me into the ceiling until I die, it's bullshit, unfair, unskillful and puts the score in favor of the player who abuses the exploits. This is not how it's supposed to be and if you're in any way against this you're simply retarded. This isn't subjective at all, this is common sense.

It is subjectivity because there's a diverse opinion pool seen on the topic here itself. Clearly it's a subjective matter as there's a large player amount who use it and support having it in duels.

If you get caught out in a really bad position instead of where you should focus on staying, you are "unskilled" imo, or done a bad play. I have already explained how you avoid getting into these bad positions. And it's far from unskillful, takes a lot to master this "exploit". Whether that's "fair or bullshit" is your viewpoint.

Plus it's so obvious that the better player will still end up with the better score, regardless of roof combos. Because there's an equal amount of chance to get caught out for the enemy. At any semi-decent level a player will avoid being near the ceiling for this particular reason. In fact I can't even remember more than two duels where I've seen four good roof combos and they usually don't even cause one death per combo. I'm sort of curious, are you even able to do them if I ask you to come on ESF? I have a feeling that maybe you're bereft of the sensation you receive when you do a good chain combo or of a high-skill cap duel.

I strongly disagree with your viewpoint but it doesn't mean I cannot acknowledge it.
 
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I see it in the same way as Shadi..if you're in a position where such thing can happen(you get knocked back into the roof) it's you own fault for getting into that place. It's the same a jumping around in Quake3 ,get hit by a rocket and fall from the map.
 
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I see it in the same way as Shadi..if you're in a position where such thing can happen(you get knocked back into the roof) it's you own fault for getting into that place. It's the same a jumping around in Quake3 ,get hit by a rocket and fall from the map.
I think the biggest problem is the map they are using for duels. Cell games is a nice map, but its roof is way to low to allow for good movement. Personally i allways loved ape_foreshadow for something like that. Night sky, nice and spacy, but not overly big either.
 
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Good that the new maps are way bigger :D
 
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I don't like these elitists bastards, they think they're the best or something - can anyone beat these two?
 
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It is subjectivity because there's a diverse opinion pool seen on the topic here itself. Clearly it's a subjective matter as there's a large player amount who use it and support having it in duels.
A few retarded people having a different view doesn't make an obvious matter subjective.

If you get caught out in a really bad position instead of where you should focus on staying, you are "unskilled" imo, or done a bad play. I have already explained how you avoid getting into these bad positions. And it's far from unskillful, takes a lot to master this "exploit". Whether that's "fair or bullshit" is your viewpoint.
Oh please tell me how getting caught once in exploitable area beats catching the opponent 10 times in a row NOT in exploitable area. Are you seriously ******* telling me that the outcome of every duel ever would be the same regardless if exploits are allowed or not? NO. The more skilled player would win without exploits allowed, which is not necessarily the same when exploits are in.

I'm sort of curious, are you even able to do them if I ask you to come on ESF? I have a feeling that maybe you're bereft of the sensation you receive when you do a good chain combo or of a high-skill cap duel.
I don't play ESF. I can't do shit. My view is perfectly unbiased. Yours is.
 
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A few retarded people having a different view doesn't make an obvious matter subjective.
I'm not even going to comment on this anymore. You are just cementing my perception on my statement about how narrow-minded you're being despite all the comments and examples given. You are completely jettisoning everything, you aren't even trying to see it from another viewpoint at all.

Oh please tell me how getting caught once in exploitable area beats catching the opponent 10 times in a row NOT in exploitable area. Are you seriously ******* telling me that the outcome of every duel ever would be the same regardless if exploits are allowed or not? NO. The more skilled player would win without exploits allowed, which is not necessarily the same when exploits are in.
Nop, this is extremely wrong and will always be. You clearly lack the experience of seeing the outcome of these duels imo. The outcome is almost always the same, especially since both are allowed so it's not a "handicap" to anyone or "unfair". I've had this opinion even before when I didn't have have any idea how to do roof combos. I couldn't do it to save my life. I've been on both ends, and I've learnt to adapt and enjoy. Not being able to do the combo or avoid it, was my deficiency of skill and knowledge.


I don't play ESF. I can't do shit..
Exactly, you can't do it. You haven't experienced it, you haven't experienced seeing how these duels turn out. You haven't seen how it's become part of the game you don't know how "unfair" or "fair" it actually is.

My view is perfectly unbiased. Yours is.
And same with Ryokeen and all the previous people commenting against your opinion as well? Might have to re-define "a few retards". He gave you yet another example of how most "free-roaming" online competitive games work.

To be honest it just seems like you're salty that people don't share your views, so you resort to ad hominem to a seemingly large group and use it as a platform for your own ego.

I don't like these elitists bastards, they think they're the best or something - can anyone beat these two?
Oh yes a lot of people can beat me, if you're referring to me as one of the two that is. I'm not much of an elitist anymore, but obviously some of my views shaped when I was, but also when I wasn't.
 
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Oh yes a lot of people can beat me, if you're referring to me as one of the two that is. I'm not much of an elitist anymore, but obviously some of my views shaped when I was, but also when I wasn't.
I mean creators of this movie
 
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I mean creators of this movie
Well to beat them you'd surely have to be more of an elitist than they were? xD

Or extraordinarily talented or gifted at the very least haha.
 
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Lets all agree to disagree :)

The FACT is that we allow ceiling hits in a controlled environment, its our rules?

Having an opinion (aggressively) on whether or not you think its retarded or not is your call, you aren't involved in the game anyway so stop having a go at us for playing in a certain way.
 
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Nop, this is extremely wrong and will always be. You clearly lack the experience of seeing the outcome of these duels imo. The outcome is almost always the same, especially since both are allowed so it's not a "handicap" to anyone or "unfair". I've had this opinion even before when I didn't have have any idea how to do roof combos. I couldn't do it to save my life. I've been on both ends, and I've learnt to adapt and enjoy.
You fail to see the fact that with ESF melee you're never supposed to one-shot (as in, catch them once and kill them before they're even allowed to do something) the opponent. It's not about hoping to catch the opponent in an exploitable area, it's about catching them many times. The exploit literally allows one to bypass this system and it is simply wrong to allow it.

TL; DR you're supposed to catch the opponent many times, but with exploit only once per their life.

Not being able to do the combo or avoid it, was my deficiency of skill and knowledge.
You must have been so proud of having learned to exploit the game!
 
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You fail to see the fact that with ESF melee you're never supposed to one-shot (as in, catch them once and kill them before they're even allowed to do something) the opponent. It's not about hoping to catch the opponent in an exploitable area, it's about catching them many times. The exploit literally allows one to bypass this system and it is simply wrong to allow it.

TL; DR you're supposed to catch the opponent many times, but with exploit only once per their life.
Pretty sure it was intended for beams to have a bigger role, pretty sure advanced melee was supposed to have a role but it's the players creating the meta. The developers not fixing that for years means that it'll probably become part of the game and it has. To me it's thinking outside the box and making the most of what you have, it's not a malicious exploit (unfortunately a lot of them exist, and these are frowned upon unlike this one).

You must have been so proud of having learned to exploit the game!
Seeing as it takes a lot of skill and endeavour (practicing) and grasping the concept of different heights depending on where you are compared to your opponent (learning) let alone the fact that most people aren't able to do it, yes I'm proud.
 
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