Regarding melee

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As you probably all know, ESF final melee is an upgraded version of 1.2.3 basic melee with 3 variations: basic melee, combo melee and throw/grab and smash, and they interact with a rock paper sissors mechanism which, in my honest opinion, is not very ideal for this type of game and ill tell you why.

The number one reason is because luck should never be involved in such a skillfull game and i read the devs position when they said it is due to newer players having a little bit of chance against pro players and adding a bit of depths which is compeletely understandable, but unfortunately i think it has more bad than good in it.
When ESF F does release, pros will want to compete at the game and obviously none of them want luck involved in their fight so what will probably happen is they will use only one of the three melees avaliable to undoublty test their skill on the game, leaving the rest of the melees unused.
As for new players, this system will simply make it worse for them to learn because they wont know if they landed a good angle hit or simply got lucky in a headon and some might just constantly try their luck in headons instead of actually learning the game, which makes it annoying for both good and bad players.

Now there are a lot of simple ways to change this, for example, simple melee would win against combo and throw ( having combo = throw in a headon) but would deal less dmg so if you landed a combo or a throw you would be rewarded with a bit more damage because its harder to hit, sure you could spam simple melee forever, but you wouldnt have the same damage output as you would if you used the other types of melee as well.
This is just a simple example because there are a billion ways to make this work, you just have to be creative.

Some of you will say that, without the RPS system, noobs will ragequit like they did in 1.2.3 but let me tell you the reason why some of the new players hated 1.2.3, they hated it because, once they were hit ONCE by a pro, there was nothing they could do to stop being punched to death, nothing at all so it wasnt because pros were better than them but because there was so little they could do against them which lead to little room for improvement, but now in esf final thats not the case because of the recovery system, now noobs wont die instantly and have a chance to fight back and if they do get obliterated its because they failed multiple times which im sure they will understand, not to mention ESF final seems a lot easier to learn (no double tap for swooping, etc).

Note that i never played ESF Final so i cant tell for sure how the RPS system really impacts gameplay, keep in mind this is merely my point of view and id like to hear your suggestions and opinions on this as well.
 
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Actually if anything the final will be harder to learn. Its a lot faster so there is a lot more skill involved in hitting someone. The hit box bug from 1.2.3 is also fixed, so the character hitboxes are the correct size meaning the targets are smaller, which means you have to aim more precisely. There is also a bit of a drift to turns now due to momentum based flight. Meaning anglehits are way harder to pull off.

Now with regards to the melee its like this.

simple - med damage, full knock back, no direction control
combo - low to high damage (depending on charge), full knock back, full direction controll (full charge is an extra drain on your KI so you cant just charge it fully as youll run out of KI 2 to 3 times as fast as you would regularly)
throw - no damage (not counting for throwing in to walls/ground), knoick back distance controll, full direction control

What ive seen from actual playtests is the following. Simple and combo melee are the all rounders. Throws are perfect for setting up combos since you can throw them just in front of you and follow up with a second hit almost instantly.

Also ignoring bots since they are totally random, people tend to have a preffered melee that they use most of the time. But its not all simple melee. So reading what the person generally uses adds an extra layer of foresight needed. Yes there is some luck involved, but from what ive seen during testing, closer to the ground combo melee is preferred to simple due to the full knock back direction controll, while throws are really underused because they dont do damage themselves, even though they are potentially the most damaging if you can pull a good combo off.

Als in regards to the recovery system. It eats a decent chunk of your stamina. And if timed incorrectly itll just give your opponent a free hit effectively wasting that stamina. But if timed right the opponent will not be able to hit you due to the invoulnerability time (which is really short) during the recovery animation.

Trust me when i say this. Im half way decent with 1.2.3, but as far as the final goes. Im a total amateur. Sure i can push some of the devs round because lets face it i have more experience from playing the game, but as far as the testers go. Im probably the worst player.

So there really isnt anything easy about the game. And there are quite a few features that give lots of room for advanced plays.
 
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Actually if anything the final will be harder to learn. Its a lot faster so there is a lot more skill involved in hitting someone. The hit box bug from 1.2.3 is also fixed, so the character hitboxes are the correct size meaning the targets are smaller, which means you have to aim more precisely. There is also a bit of a drift to turns now due to momentum based flight. Meaning anglehits are way harder to pull off.

Now with regards to the melee its like this.

simple - med damage, full knock back, no direction control
combo - low to high damage (depending on charge), full knock back, full direction controll (full charge is an extra drain on your KI so you cant just charge it fully as youll run out of KI 2 to 3 times as fast as you would regularly)
throw - no damage (not counting for throwing in to walls/ground), knoick back distance controll, full direction control

What ive seen from actual playtests is the following. Simple and combo melee are the all rounders. Throws are perfect for setting up combos since you can throw them just in front of you and follow up with a second hit almost instantly.

Also ignoring bots since they are totally random, people tend to have a preffered melee that they use most of the time. But its not all simple melee. So reading what the person generally uses adds an extra layer of foresight needed. Yes there is some luck involved, but from what ive seen during testing, closer to the ground combo melee is preferred to simple due to the full knock back direction controll, while throws are really underused because they dont do damage themselves, even though they are potentially the most damaging if you can pull a good combo off.

Als in regards to the recovery system. It eats a decent chunk of your stamina. And if timed incorrectly itll just give your opponent a free hit effectively wasting that stamina. But if timed right the opponent will not be able to hit you due to the invoulnerability time (which is really short) during the recovery animation.

Trust me when i say this. Im half way decent with 1.2.3, but as far as the final goes. Im a total amateur. Sure i can push some of the devs round because lets face it i have more experience from playing the game, but as far as the testers go. Im probably the worst player.

So there really isnt anything easy about the game. And there are quite a few features that give lots of room for advanced plays.
Wait. There's something missing here. Did you guys take out the Grab and smash or is that some other type of combo?
Also now that this is brought up. I'm a little curious on some technical stuff regarding the Stage combos, if they still exist. Will each stage deal the same amounts of damage for each characters, but just with different moves, or will some characters have some specializations, meaning for example: their simple punches may be weaker than other, but their combos are a little longer and deal more successive damage?
 
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More or less the specials deal equal amounts of damage for all chars. Depending on the tier used. As for Grab and smash, thats pretty much counted as a throw.

The difference is that while you can block throws, you cant block the grab and smash. It can still be countered using the RPS design and its still outclassed by the specials.

Also the comboes i was referring to were pretty much equivalent to the double simple melee hit of 1.2.3

What i neglected to mention was the bonus system.

simple melee - adds 1 bonus point
combo melee - adds 3 to 5 points depending on the charge
throws - add 0 bonus points

Ofcourse there are also bonuses to sucessfully hitting the target multiple times before it recovers. So while throws dont give you bonus points, they still count as a hit and apply to the hit counter. This does get negated by the target recovering though.

As for the tiers themselves.

A Tier 1 attack costs 50 bonus points and has a 15 second time frame for you to use it, before the points are lost.
A Tier 2 attack costs 100 points and has a 10 second time frame to use it
A Tier 3 attack costs 200 points and has a 5 second time frame.

Max you can get 250 bonus points. Also the bonus points revert to 0 on death. But the extra health means you will die a lot less. So a single life might last you 10 or more minutes if you and your opponent are equally skilled.
 
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More or less the specials deal equal amounts of damage for all chars. Depending on the tier used. As for Grab and smash, thats pretty much counted as a throw.

The difference is that while you can block throws, you cant block the grab and smash. It can still be countered using the RPS design and its still outclassed by the specials.

Also the comboes i was referring to were pretty much equivalent to the double simple melee hit of 1.2.3

What i neglected to mention was the bonus system.

simple melee - adds 1 bonus point
combo melee - adds 3 to 5 points depending on the charge
throws - add 0 bonus points

Ofcourse there are also bonuses to sucessfully hitting the target multiple times before it recovers. So while throws dont give you bonus points, they still count as a hit and apply to the hit counter. This does get negated by the target recovering though.

As for the tiers themselves.

A Tier 1 attack costs 50 bonus points and has a 15 second time frame for you to use it, before the points are lost.
A Tier 2 attack costs 100 points and has a 10 second time frame to use it
A Tier 3 attack costs 200 points and has a 5 second time frame.

Max you can get 250 bonus points. Also the bonus points revert to 0 on death. But the extra health means you will die a lot less. So a single life might last you 10 or more minutes if you and your opponent are equally skilled.
Huh, a little weird grab smash doesn't do damage when you drag someone through the ground, but hey you're the bosses.
 
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Huh, a little weird grab smash doesn't do damage when you drag someone through the ground, but hey you're the bosses.
That does damage, but its minor. I counted that the same as throwing someone in to the ground. Meaning impact damage.
 
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That does damage, but its minor. I counted that the same as throwing someone in to the ground. Meaning impact damage.
Ah right, because I thought it only did damage after you threw your victim.

A bit of a shame there aren't specializations and that characters will deal samey amounts of damage for every move that is available, but I guess finding appropriate balances may prove too difficult and the risk would be certain characters are left behind because of it. BTW speaking of damage. Did beams stay the same? As in the most powerful is the Final Flash, followed by Spirit Bomb, followed by Super Kamehameha?
 
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I still think there should be some health regeneration system to accommodate the fact that even the most skilled players will eventually die if they fight enough players/fight multiple players at once. Perhaps Tier attacks could be used for that if players choose so? Dying at the hand of a noob only because you happen to have 1HP after 100 previous fights sucks.
 
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thats my concern i dont want luck to decide some battles but i guess with the high amount of hp wont matter much.
Btw you could make the throw a bit more usefull, say instead of 50 stamina to instarecover you need 75 to instarecover if you are hit with a throw attack, that would be usefull.
 
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I still think there should be some health regeneration system to accommodate the fact that even the most skilled players will eventually die if they fight enough players/fight multiple players at once. Perhaps Tier attacks could be used for that if players choose so? Dying at the hand of a noob only because you happen to have 1HP after 100 previous fights sucks.
Given that ESF is a highly mobile combat game why not say that a player who remains out of combat for a certain amount of time begins to regen HP. Jumping and swooping are allowed but any attack or teleportation makes you have to wait for that timer again before HP begins to Regenerate.
 
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That will encourage running/hiding.
 
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I still think there should be some health regeneration system to accommodate the fact that even the most skilled players will eventually die if they fight enough players/fight multiple players at once. Perhaps Tier attacks could be used for that if players choose so? Dying at the hand of a noob only because you happen to have 1HP after 100 previous fights sucks.
Wait. Don't you have Buu for that?
 
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That will encourage running/hiding.
And running encourages chasing. This happens PLENTY of times in the manga and series of both dragon ball and DBZ, I don't see the problem with it. Everyone just having regen wouldn't be fair unless you have to suffer a handicap for it. Otherwise just stick to senzu beans.

If you aren't willing to suffer some kind of loss then a natural HP regeneration just isn't fair, it would encourage a change of pace, and it's not really difficult to catch someone who isn't beam jumping.

As it stands there is still too little in the game to change up the pace of combat; everything, every concept is handled through a singular form of direct engagement that pro's abuse, and new players struggle to grasp.

Even if ESF F is going to be harder for everyone to grasp, this just means it's going to be EVEN harder for new players, and just a little variation for people who already understand the mechanics.
 
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And running encourages chasing. This happens PLENTY of times in the manga and series of both dragon ball and DBZ, I don't see the problem with it. Everyone just having regen wouldn't be fair unless you have to suffer a handicap for it. Otherwise just stick to senzu beans.

If you aren't willing to suffer some kind of loss then a natural HP regeneration just isn't fair, it would encourage a change of pace, and it's not really difficult to catch someone who isn't beam jumping.

As it stands there is still too little in the game to change up the pace of combat; everything, every concept is handled through a singular form of direct engagement that pro's abuse, and new players struggle to grasp.

Even if ESF F is going to be harder for everyone to grasp, this just means it's going to be EVEN harder for new players, and just a little variation for people who already understand the mechanics.
Beam jumping, flying around, chasing... personally I would prefer if people would just grow some and charge head on. That's how I like to play it. To bad that type of playing is punished badly in the current version.
 
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Well but what is "out of combat" when you fly away from an opponent, not attacking, just swooping , is that out of combat ? Or just standing in a maps corner hiding, waiting for HP to regen ? For me(as a complete noob at this game) biggest problem is the movement speed. You Swoop just towards another player and he's so quickly out of view that you just randomly fly around because you don't want to get hit and try to spot him, just for repeating all that. (1.2.3 wasn't nearly that fast, there it wasn't such a big problem)
 
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Beam jumping, flying around, chasing... personally I would prefer if people would just grow some and charge head on. That's how I like to play it. To bad that type of playing is punished badly in the current version.
If people were more creative with their combat style I wouldn't mind charging head on, but as it stands anyone with above average skill has no unique approach to combat.

I for one always liked the chase potential in the game but there are no systems to encourage such a change of pace. In 1.2.3 people would just spam beam jump because they had inferior swoop skills.

But there should be a penalty to how many times you can beam jump in a row before it triggers a cooldown. Or not. Not sure how quick flight is compared to beam jumping, then there is turbo, and some kind of temporary super turbo if I'm not mistaken? Also I noted in a vid turbo can be toggled in the middle of a swoop. Nice.


@Ryokeen:: I would consider out of combat to be roughly 6 or 8 seconds of non-advanced movement(teleporting & beam jumping), while not dishing out an attack, or being hit by one. Maybe even maintaining a certain distance from others players if the previous somehow isn't enough. Given that the maps are much larger, and there is no radar(there is no radar right?) You can easily break the line of sight using smoke from ki blast and make you're escape(assuming there is no longer a radar.

Which leads me to another idea to replace a radar all together. Merely a simple distortion effect which starts out feint, given the relative distance of an approaching power attack(kamehameha ect.) or player, and grows more noticeable and begins to define the direction of incoming attack or player as it gets closer.

It would add to the immersion of intense combat without causing the player to have to look away from the action, and the radar kinda just killed 1.2.3 with it's inclusion, making sneak attacks near impossible. Just a thought.
 
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There is a Radar. And beam jumps have been nerfed. Beam jumps no longer cause explosions, they are not super fast with turbo active and you can only use generic beam to do them.


All in all swooping with charged turbo is faster than a beam jump but drains quite a lot more KI to.
 
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Beamjumping was never shown in the series to be something more useful than simply flying and was only ever used to avoid hitting the ground.
 

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