Regarding melee

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Hey skilled guy. Imagine it like this. The game is like a zombie hoard mode, where you the skilled guy play the hero and the noobs are the zombies. Since you're skilled you can take down one of them easy. You're really skilled you can take them all down multiple times. But eventually they will overwhelm you and take you down once.

For every one time you fall they will fall multiple times, each.

sheesh talk about your typical bureaucratic elitism for no reason. This isn't running a corporation, it's a game. Accept that every once in a while you will fall to pure chance and move on and get those high scores. And if it really bothers you make a clan, recruit only elites like yourself and play withe them and them only on your 'no noobs' server until the end of times.
I won't treat ESF as something it isn't. It's a fast-paced reaction-based game which emphasizes individual skill. I have no problem with pros dying against 20 noobs attacking them at once, because those 20 noobs actually make a single opponent. I have a problem with pros dying 1v1 only because they happen to have low health from previous fighting.
 
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I won't treat ESF as something it isn't. It's a fast-paced reaction-based game which emphasizes individual skill. I have no problem with pros dying against 20 noobs attacking them at once, because those 20 noobs actually make a single opponent. I have a problem with pros dying 1v1 only because they happen to have low health from previous fighting.
Thats a tad elitist dont you think? Its a game and already you can get rediculous scores compared to other games. Imagine it like this.

Street fighter where your lives dont refill every round. You fight 1 guy and win, and agan and again, but by the 4th guy your lives are already really low and the guy takes you down with a lucky punch. Its unfair to you, you just beat 3 dudes only to be killed by a lucky hit. But is it any fairer to your opponents who are nowhere near your skill level? It is, but would it be fair to the other guys who are nowhere near your skill level to simply not be able to kill you because you can regenerate your health each time you win? You betcha.

Thats one of the reasons why people target anyone using Buu in ESF. Buu can regain his health, its effectively an immortal character in the correct hands.

The only result of adding anything that replanishes your health in teh game would be to make the gap between skill even bigger than it already is. And quite frankly if you cant handle a death every 5 or more kills, then you are far more shallow than i believed you to be. Sure it may not be fair towards you, but its also not fair towards new people when you join a server and just wreck everyone. And with a heal system like suggested all that would lead is you becomming an immortal annoyance to everyone elso not of your skill level on the server.
 
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I won't treat ESF as something it isn't. It's a fast-paced reaction-based game which emphasizes individual skill. I have no problem with pros dying against 20 noobs attacking them at once, because those 20 noobs actually make a single opponent. I have a problem with pros dying 1v1 only because they happen to have low health from previous fighting.
You know, you have the exact making of a typical owner of a corporation. Mountains more successful than those underneath him, but always afraid that one day someone from underneath will take him down (albeit in your case by just pure luck), so he tries to do everything in his power to make sure he stays on top. Grow some backbone and defend your title. If someone get's lucky to take you down by pure chance, then if you're as good as you say, you will then be able to beat him until he wets his pants and attempts to spam the voice chat with a bunch of noise and then never visits that server ever again. Don't try to rig the game in favour of those in power. Sheesh.
 
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But is it any fairer to your opponents who are nowhere near your skill level? It is, but would it be fair to the other guys who are nowhere near your skill level to simply not be able to kill you because you can regenerate your health each time you win? You betcha.
Yes, it is fair. They are unable to kill you not because you regenerate HP everytime you win (if that's what you consider a good healing system?), but because they are inferior in skill. The luck factor in games with high learning curve (ESF, Jedi Academy, Movie Battles II, Blade Symphony) is easily the most annoying thing ever. This is why proper deathmatch games have a way to replenish your health, and other competetive games like Counter-Strike restore your health the next round.
 
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But ESF is not round based, and any sort of pickup system doesnt work because of the way the movement works in ESF. Flying and melee focus kills any pickup drop system ala quake. Those games work because guns. And guns we dont have. Not to mention we have a full flight system that expands the dodge abilities.

So any way we spin it we either get auto heal on kills, or a totally exploitable pickup system because of how the chars can move. And quite honestly neither of those cases is to appealing considerring the game is meant for everyone, not just elites. But if you bring in CS in to the debate, then its like this. You kill 4 dudes, but take some damage in the process. The fifth one shoots you in the foot and kills you even though he is a complete noob who just happened to get a lucky shot and you were low on health. Its all good in CS, but here you are whining about that very same thing.

Sure we dont have rounds, but instead you just respawn with full HP moments later.
 
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That example doesn't make sense because in CS it's 5v5 with 100HP at round start. It's team vs team, not player vs player. Teams start on equal grounds. A team doesn't have low health left after winning 10 rounds in a row but taking damage, because like mentioned, health is restored each round. And I'm not telling you to add health pickups or make some over-abusable health replenish system, I said that there needs to be some sort of health regeneration system to minimize the luck factor, that's all. Restore 1% HP after each kill and we're set. For pros that's good enough.

And by "this game is meant for everyone, not just elites" you're essentially saying "this game is for casuals". You're making another COD.
 
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I think perhaps what Grega is driving at is that ESF must have game dynamics for both pros and casuals, because these are the demographics the game will attract regardless of design point. And in practice, the mechanics of respawn combined with weapon system addresses this simply and efficiently.

The idea of a kill bonus still needs to be addressed in some satisfying way for the player perhaps though. But it's not so easy to do without breaking something else, and it is far easier to circle back to the point above.

You already receive PL by fighting, therefore receiving an extra bonus PL on kill is simple enough. You could get a KI bonus instead, like some sort of soul-reaving effect. Sounds good - but it can promote a degree of kill stealing also for example.
Rewarding excellent play can also have its drawbacks. Let's say you got rewarded with a senzu for every killstreak. That gives a reward to those who don't really need it. And in the reverse situation (ie a dying streak) it rewards apathy. These added systems then require sub-systems to police them and a workload now snowballs very fast. Work that could be avoided without cost by making little to no changes at all.


Even a subtle unexpected shift in the tactics of a playerbase can break any and all balance. So you really have to work by eliminating the unessential and locking the players into what is left. So you have to make it enjoyable for everyone who may be in a server, not just the ones who live and breathe it. I personally have been in favour on the current design as it is simple and works, but a part of me still worries about how things will pan out with players en masse. It's fun to brainstorm, but mediating a more elegant solution is more work than it is usually worth. The team has thought about these things back to front for so long I have faith in their engineering (but not their punctuality :p)


Maybe the more important question to the devs is - and I hate to say it - is there too much riding on being confident in your design, enough people eventually getting their feet wet, and seeing what happens? This seems to me the core reason behind people feeling edgy about these gameplay mechanics.
 
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As said, we dont plan to change the current way. Senzu beams were abusive, thats why they 1.2 removed them from the maps. The only exception was riverside because the raw files were lost.

And again. The plan is to eliminate kill stealing by not scoring people on kills. Your K/D ratio is irrelevant to your score. Whats relevant is how much damage you did and who you did it to. So all this talk about kills and deaths is irrelevant. Yet we know that killing someone has a psychological effect on the player, a feeling of triumph. So any pros can ignore getting killed by a lucky punch as it will not affect their score and the newbs get the psychological exscitement of killing that 1 tough opponent at least once.

Meaning you can have a K/D ratio of 100/0 and still be round last place if you only kill those round last place.. Its going to be a lot easier for people in the back of the score board to go forward and a lot harder for those in front to stay there.

Also you missed my point in the CS example. It was all meant in a single round. But even if we expand it. You may kill a noob 9 rounds out of 10 and then once he gets a lucky headshot on you due to the bullet spread. Thats the situation you are raging over. Moreso you are raging over that about a game where kills wont mean squat to the score.
 
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My problem with the system is whenever there are two players of relatively the same skill level, how will the luck system affect them?
I mean if your opponent is much better than you, you can maybe get a kill or two with the system but he will probably destroy you anyway, but if you´re on par with him skillwise then most certainly luck can affect either side right ?
Thats my only fear with this, in ESF 1.2.3 some pros came pretty close to each other scorewise and it was kinda neat to see the tension build up and see who came out on top.
Then again you raised the HP bar a lot so these "lucky shots" wont matter much and a punch or two from a weaker player wont hurt if it helps to raise their self esteem regarding this but i hope you guys managed(or manage) to minimize luck as much as possible because im pretty sure everyone including noobs hate losing from it.
 
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And again. The plan is to eliminate kill stealing by not scoring people on kills. Your K/D ratio is irrelevant to your score. Whats relevant is how much damage you did and who you did it to. So all this talk about kills and deaths is irrelevant. Yet we know that killing someone has a psychological effect on the player, a feeling of triumph. So any pros can ignore getting killed by a lucky punch as it will not affect their score and the newbs get the psychological exscitement of killing that 1 tough opponent at least once.
I can't ignore my deaths as long as they're in the scoreboard. If it's in the scoreboard it's relevant. If a pro has deaths in the scoreboard, it means he died. People other than you see them as deaths, not as deaths by opponent's luck, thus your rating as a pro diminishes in their eyes. Unless it's not in the scoreboard, which would make this discussion redundant. And even in CS players are often judged by their own stats and not the team's, which is wrong.

Also you missed my point in the CS example. It was all meant in a single round. But even if we expand it. You may kill a noob 9 rounds out of 10 and then once he gets a lucky headshot on you due to the bullet spread. Thats the situation you are raging over. Moreso you are raging over that about a game where kills wont mean squat to the score.
It's a teamwork game. CS doesn't emphasize individual skill as much as ESF does. If you got killed by a lucky HS, the chances of the same happening to every other player in your team are really slim, so if your team is pro and the opponents are not, you will still win and the tean score will indicate that. So again in CS it's team vs team, and HP is restored. In ESF it's player vs player, and HP is never restored until you die. You talk about rounds? Rounds only last a few minutes. In ESF there are no rounds so you have no chance to get your HP restored whatsoever. I never suggested introducing a HP regen system as extreme as rounds in CS, I ask for at least something.

If modding ESFF is possible then sure, skip that, but I'm not so sure it is.
 
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I can't ignore my deaths as long as they're in the scoreboard. If it's in the scoreboard it's relevant. If a pro has deaths in the scoreboard, it means he died. People other than you see them as deaths, not as deaths by opponent's luck, thus your rating as a pro diminishes in their eyes. Unless it's not in the scoreboard, which would make this discussion redundant. And even in CS players are often judged by their own stats and not the team's, which is wrong.


It's a teamwork game. CS doesn't emphasize individual skill as much as ESF does. If you got killed by a lucky HS, the chances of the same happening to every other player in your team are really slim, so if your team is pro and the opponents are not, you will still win and the tean score will indicate that. So again in CS it's team vs team, and HP is restored. In ESF it's player vs player, and HP is never restored until you die. You talk about rounds? Rounds only last a few minutes. In ESF there are no rounds so you have no chance to get your HP restored whatsoever. I never suggested introducing a HP regen system as extreme as rounds in CS, I ask for at least something.

If modding ESFF is possible then sure, skip that, but I'm not so sure it is.
The first one that's a problem Michael Jackson suffered from. It's called perfectionism. I could empathise, because I have it too, but yours is way worse.

For the second one. Well first off CS has free for all just like ESF, where you kill, get killed and respawn until the map kills itself, so I don't know why you specifically targeted the modes that have teams in them, and second even in those modes, do people really play that game as a team, I meant REALLY work together as a team. No, it all is in the kills for the team and who ranks first and who doesn't. Since in ESF kills won't matter so much as what you did to do the kill I don't really see the problem to justify the need for pros to stay on top no matter what. Because you know those poor pros.

For your sake if that problem is as bad as you claim it is I sincerely hope you can mod the game and create your own little server where you can reign supreme with your perfection, otherwise... Sorry, your suggestion is like political bills. Claims it would benefits everyone, really only benefits the privileged and screws everyone else over. And again you have Buu for regeneration. Play Buu.
 
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The first one that's a problem Michael Jackson suffered from. It's called perfectionism. I could empathise, because I have it too, but yours is way worse.

For the second one. Well first off CS has free for all just like ESF, where you kill, get killed and respawn until the map kills itself, so I don't know why you specifically targeted the modes that have teams in them, and second even in those modes, do people really play that game as a team, I meant REALLY work together as a team. No, it all is in the kills for the team and who ranks first and who doesn't. Since in ESF kills won't matter so much as what you did to do the kill I don't really see the problem to justify the need for pros to stay on top no matter what. Because you know those poor pros.

For your sake if that problem is as bad as you claim it is I sincerely hope you can mod the game and create your own little server where you can reign supreme with your perfection, otherwise... Sorry, your suggestion is like political bills. Claims it would benefits everyone, really only benefits the privileged and screws everyone else over. And again you have Buu for regeneration. Play Buu.
Cs does have free for all and other modes but i think what hlev is emphasising is the pro scene of the game and you cant really compare cs to esf in that matter because cs(pro wise) is a team based game and esf is not so the work together thingy is only for team deathmatch and whatnot which means yes, frags are meaningfull in professional ESF.
However, heres a fair comparison, imagine if the cs pro scene was like esf : player1 and player2 in a map dueling, if one kills another the other respawns with full health and the other stays as it is, this goes on till someone can pull off 10 frags.
Now i ask you this, dont you think luck would kind of affect the outcome of that "duel" ? because the noob surely would have some "lucky" shots during that firefight and even if the pro could kill him first most of the times im certain the noob could get him a few times himself the next few rounds.
Basically this makes the gap between pros and noobs shorter because it seems that the noob got some kills on the pro and hes not that bad of a player but in reallity he just got some lucky shots and got him a few times.
Thats the problem with this mechanism, the gap between pros and noobs must be absolutely clear because they are pros after all and why should a new player even face a pro anyway ? If they are new to the game they should start with the basics, maybe against bots or join a newbs server and go on from there, not allow them to face the elites who have been around for a long time, if they wanna face the elites , practice and become one, in NO other game you see noobs pulling off anything against pros unless they are smurfs.
 
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Why even compair it to CS ? Take Q3, UT those good old deathmatch games. They got some health lying around sure, but sometimes that's disabled(Like that more). And there it happens a lot you kill 10ppl in a row run around for 2 kills with maybe 5hp and a noob uses a Flagcannon grenade and gets you. So what ? YOU know that you killed enough ppl without dying, lucky hits from others happen, also you will be happy to have a lucky hit on someone who's better than you. If you want to be absolutly superior to any noob...then go on a noob server and cheat. It's a game, sometimes you win sometimes you loose. BTW about Pro-gaming...there is stuff like arranged matches with 1vs1 and those are used to count. I NEVER saw any PRO Q3 gamer on an average server playing for 30 or more minutes without any death. So if you can't handle a death on your scoreboard, i suggest you don't play anthing online against human players.
 
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Unless it's not in the scoreboard, which would make this discussion redundant.

The original idea is to not have it on the scoreboard at all. But as it would happen lots of pros complained anout how stupid it is to not have deaths in the score board despite the fact that they are as important to your score standing as your name for example. That said we never promissed to include a full K/D ratio in the info. We can easily just put kills in there and hide the deaths, since both of those numbers are irrelevant to your server standing. Though having a kills count would probably make duels easier to follow than the PL points counter.

So again and this is only an example. You pick Buu and your opponent picks Krillin. For the obvious starting PL difference. You kill him once and he kills you once. He will be in the lead because of the characters smaller starting PL, meaning he gained more PL by hurting you than you did by hurting him. So even if you are both with 1 kill and a full HP bar the character with the smaller starting PL will be in the lead. This system also deals with kill stealing since killing someone doesnt give you any extra PL, only hurting them does.

The entire K/D ratio is irrelevant in that aspect.
 
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Why even compair it to CS ? Take Q3, UT those good old deathmatch games.
That's why I originally mentioned "proper deathmatch games", and added that even non-deathmatch competetive games like CS have something that restores HP without requiring the player to die first. Grega completely dismissed that and wanted to argue about CS point specifically.

I NEVER saw any PRO Q3 gamer on an average server playing for 30 or more minutes without any death. So if you can't handle a death on your scoreboard, i suggest you don't play anthing online against human players.
The essential thing is that the pro had the chance to regain health by collecting pickups. Whether he succeeded in doing that is a completely different matter. And where did I ever imply I can't handle death? I don't even intend to be a pro in ESFF so get that idea out of your head and get back to my main point.
 
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Just swap "Deaths" for "From Hell".

Then everyone can feel better. The only thing missing is the free sundae on the third visit.
 
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HLEV you're main point is why should a good player having scored twenty or so kills(by that time have had his HP whittled down to say 10), suddenly get killed because some random no good noob landed a lucky shot.

Well it's simply because ESF does not have rounds. You get HP per death. If it takes several people several lives to whittle a pro down to one death. Take it like a ******* man, don't ki blast yourself, don't get upset, and don't talk smack cause it happened. It's fair.

Cause in fact, doing just those things are what prove, despite any skill that one is not a pro, but a noob. It is the mentality that makes people do cheep things and talk petty talk. Pro's will suffer ANY handicap and persevere through it without any complaint.

So as there is no ultimate "YOU WIN THE MATCH" brand at the end of the game keeping score is just a vanity thing. You want full HP then let yourself get killed OR fight until the bitter end.

Otherwise it would be like giving frieza a senzu bean everytime he spanked someone on namek. The z fighters would have been screwed flat out. HP is you're endurance. No one can last forever. That is the point of HP. To see how far you can go.
 
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I dont think anyone cares about being randomly killed in a deathmatch, in deathmatch everyone gets lucky because no matter how good you are you can only take so many people and other players will hit you sooner or later while you focus on someone else which will eventually get you killed a few times, this is about duels and how luck can affect those.
It all depends on the values tho, like for example if fully charged combo melee (which is the most damaging type of melee if im not mistaken) does 1/3 of your max hp then that would be a problem because 3 "lucky" strikes from a noob would be enough to get a kill on a pro, which makes luck a big factor, but if it does way less damage and you can take a decent amount of those then luck is minimized( it would take 10 rounds for a noob to kill a pro if he got lucky with headons for example)and i have no problems with it.
Then again im only worried because i dont know the values to this but with the high hp i hope they manage to mitigate luck as much as possible so it doesnt feel like we re playing a guessing game.
 
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Didnt i tell you that a single life can last you for 10 or more minutes >.<
 
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HLEV you're main point is why should a good player having scored twenty or so kills(by that time have had his HP whittled down to say 10), suddenly get killed because some random no good noob landed a lucky shot.

Well it's simply because ESF does not have rounds. You get HP per death.
Which doesn't make sense and is not how it's done in proper games. CS has rounds. Quake/UT/HLDM have health pickups. ESF has nothing, which is wrong.

How HP regeneration in ESF would be designed I don't know, right now I'm just getting the message across. It needs something for good players to have the chance to stay alive after countless battles. Personally I would think about incorporating HP regeneration as an option for Tier bonus, so you may choose to do Tier attack or use it to regenerate HP instead.
 
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