This planet isn’t even crowded enough for their to be this much in-fighting… oh wait, it’s been like this since the beginning.
Is it possible one side of the argument wants to seperate themselves from the past?
When is the last time anyone has been to a Mosque… or cares about a Mosque?
Do they sell something useful?
Wait, Pain. Did you actually ban Avenger for that?
You’re kidding… right?
I didn’t ban him. I put him on a week long vacation.
Hah, cute. Let’s continue this in the chatbox, shall we?
[QUOTE=**** You]
Hindering scientific progress. Witch hunts. Reinforcing bigotry by divine mandate. Before you say people hate and want to kill people anyway, at least it’s one less excuse, and I’m pretty sure that the women burned at the stake wouldn’t have been killed otherwise.
[B][I]While on paper, hindering scientific progress sounds terrible, it does have its uses. On the one hand, we want to be able to become supermen. We want to cure aging, we want to be disease-free, and we want to own the Universe. We can achieve those goals, but yes, sometimes religion stands in the way and tells us we’re trying to play God. Irritating, to be sure.
On the other hand, however, how we choose to go about achieving those goals sometimes to be tempered by conservatism. What do I mean? Think back to WW2, and then the Cold War.. You know who I’m going to talk about, of course. Yes, the Japanese, Russians and Americans. The Japanese were unhindered by religious views (the average kind, anyway), and so they kept trucking in the science department. What did this lead to? Creating the worst ****ing biological weapons ever created. Ever. They tested them first on POWs and captured civilians, and then they used them on entire villages in China.
In the name of science.
America, meanwhile, was busy giving scientists all the money they needed to build crazy weapons, and eventually the nuke, culminating in its use on Japan. Science did that to all of those people.
Russia and America took all of Japan’s research into bio weapons after the war (as well as research belonging to some other group; I can’t seem to recall their name right now), and continued experimenting, creating worse strains, more powerful strains, chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, and eventually genital weapons.
All with the intent of committing murder. Thanks to science.
So yes, religion sometimes hinders science, but sometimes science needs to be hindered. If only just a little bit. That’s no excuse for what is happening in America now, though, as the people responsible for destroying science are naugh but a vocal minority. A religious vocal minority.
But I don’t blame extremists for being extremists. No, I blame the scientists and all the rational and logical people in the country for allowing these extremists to control their destiny, with only whispers to be heard.
[/I][/B]
As well, other than mentally ill people, suicide bombing is a prime example of something exclusive to religion. Could you convince someone to kill themselves without the promise of something supernatural waiting for him after his death?
[B][I]Ah yes, suicide bombing. True, extremist muslims do tend to use this technique, as it the kill-death ratio is awesome. But it wasn’t invented by them. But you know who did use this technique?
The Japanese! During WW2? With airplanes! Imagine that. I think we’re starting to see a trend here. For every crime you hold religion responsible, it seems Japan did it first, no?
Could I, personally, convince people to kill themselves without the promise of supernatural happenings? Absolutely. If there are 3 of us left fighting a platoon of taliban, and our only chance at winning (big picture) is to run at them with bombs, we’ll do it. Why? Because freedom. Because justice. Because liberty. It’s simply a matter of how indoctrinated your troops are. After all, that is what terrorists are. Troops. This is especially true during times of crisis and desperation, where victory is bleak. So yeah, religion sold separately.
[/I][/B]
If you believed that a wolf could eat your grandmother, put on her clothes, and fool a little girl, then be cut open and have the grandmother be just fine, people would think there is something wrong with you, regardless of any positive lessons you’ve learned due to your beliefs. Just like I don’t need to believe that there were actually 3 little pigs, or that there was a boy who cried wolf in order to take the lessons of these stories to heart, the same is true of any good teachings within religion. Do unto others is a good thing to remember, it’s also not something that only a believer is capable of.
The difference between that story and religious texts is only one of them can be proven to be untrue. That’s why one is clearly false, and one requires research to kinda disprove, but not completely. While the tenet mentioned isn’t something only a believer is capable of, it is something all religious people are (provided they’re moderates), while others tend to experiment first and then determine whether or not they’re empathetic enough to care. In a perfect world, religion is the easier and safer of the two methods to teaching this concept
It’s easy to say follow the philosophy of the religion. Everyone in that religion says everything in this religion is good. Love thy neighbor! This is the religion of peace! The problem is, it’s not true. Just by reading their respective holy book you can see this to be demonstrably false. The bible is packed with violence, atrocities, and hate, and so is the quran.
Once more, this is due to the perspective, biases and perceptions of the people who wrote said holy texts. In Christianity, for example, you don’t need to hate homosexuals, not eat shellfish and enslave your daughter to go to heaven. You just need to believe in Jesus. So, if you want to eliminate the unnecessary, get rid of all of the bigotry, believe in jesus and attempt to abide by the ten commandments, or at least the onces that are still relevant today. Or go a step further, and follow the ones Jesus said were the most important. Bam. You’re down to thinking Jesus was God Incarnate, and following the tenets everyone agrees with. The same is true of the Qu’ran.
Right, like I said, I’m not saying every bad thing ever associated with religion is the fault of religion, but I’m saying that getting rid of it is one less excuse, as well as less of the exclusive wrongs only capable with it.
All of the things you despise about religion existed before organized religion. Thats why they were included in the texts in the first place. No longer using God to go to war just means now I’m going to war for America. Okay, well, the words have changed, but I’m still going to ****ing die.
I keep saying the Dark Ages because it was a period dominated by religion, and coincidentally one of the absolute worst periods in human history, (or maybe not so coincidentally).
The Dark Ages were dominated by people willing to use and manipulate religion to achieve their goals. This is why people were kept predominately illiterate, giving rise to priesthoods and the Japanese, who invented witchcraft. Being manipulated through ones beliefs doesn’t make your beliefs inherently bad; it just makes you an ignorant ****. Like how the Emperor of Japan was descended from the Gods. Not so much a religion, as it was true, as his predecessors were descended from crashed aliens. Also, the fall of Rome, a religious civilization was what brought about the Dark Ages. Not just Christian Rome. Zeus Rome.
I’m not about to quote bible verses, but I can assure you that not everything Jesus said was peaches and cream. He’s had his share of missteps.
Okay, listen, cause I’m tired of this. So what if he ****ed prostitutes? Huh? It was different time, Pain. Stop ****ing judging him. He was a man, and he had needs. You have needs, right? ****.
Yes.
**** you.
Indeed, I’m not against taking good lessons and using them without religion. I’m against claiming to follow the religion as a whole and pretend the **** stains aren’t there. The problem with this however, is that the religion itself teaches that the bible is the word of god, and as such is infallible. Taking parts out, or revising something that can never be wrong is problematic.
But they clearly aren’t following religion in the way that you think they should follow religion, which is ****ing weird because you’re not religious. While the Bible teaches that it is inspired by God, and written by man, it’s quite evident Genesis wasn’t written to be taken literally. Believing the Earth is 6000 years old is actually a new phenomena, and you’ll find many of the greatest scientists of all time were religious. Take Isaac Newton, example. And Professor Oak, of Japan. If Science is constantly able to rewrite itself, to better itself, to become more accurate, I say let religion do the same. Let them learn from their mistakes, and adjust accordingly.
I’m aggressive, sure. I wouldn’t say I’m extreme. Obviously I know that the religious works are not divinely inspired and naturally, written by man. The problem is, the religious do not know this. Going back to the infallibility part of it, it becomes very problematic trying to tell someone that there wasn’t really a great flood and that the Earth is greater than 6000 years old. It’s such a struggle to get them to accept such well proven sciences because they believe in the infallibility of their religion. As you’ve stated before, certain people can pick and choose what they like more than others, believing certain things to be “symbolic” and other parts to be “literal.” I’m just suggesting that we can pick the good parts out, which are not exclusive to religion, and get rid of the rest.
[B][I]Getting rid of religion–not just one but all of them–is a little extreme. The problem is a lot of the BIble isn’t so much religious as it is historical, and it should be taken as such up to a certain extent. For example, there probably was a flood of sorts at some point, and the story was passed on from generation to generation due to its magnitude. Why do I say this? Because the story first appeared in Sumeria, and was written as a historical account of an event that transpired long ago. As I noted earlier, the 6000 year old Earth thing is new, and is the result of idiots attempting to use science to prove the Bible. Fortunately, the authors of Genesis, the Jews continue to make it quite clear it is to be taken metaphorically, and not literally.
Unfortunately, the crazy stories and parables are the parts that inspire people. The Matrix, for example, is an amalgamation of several religious traditions, and is my favorite trilogy. Thus, **** you. So what do we do? Let people figure out that, hey, this story is a parable, this story is a metaphor, this story is historical and that one is in revelations, so its either complete bull****, or was a prediction of the fall of Rome. It’ll sort itself out, though. It always does. Christianity has come a long way, as has Judaism (arguably). Islam is a little slow to come around because of cultural identity, and socioeconomic backgrounds. Meaning they’re poor and uneducated. Are they uneducated because they’re religious, or are they religious because they are uneducated. I think its the latter. [/I][/B]
Honestly, if that were the case, I think it would be a much better world, though that’s not what I’ve been saying.
There goes Sumeria, cradle of civilization, everything up to Rome and Rome itself, blah blah. You get the point.
It always comes back to that. The issue is regularly forced on nonbelievers. Just look at the bull**** going on in Texas right now, even if it is politically motivated, religion is still a gigantic part of that retard salad.
Texas is a lost cause, and their idiocy is only compounded by their religosity; it isnt the cause of it though.
How to beat your slaves and women, how to kill sinners, don’t use contraception even though you’ll get AIDS.
These aren’t tenets, or even concepts. These are arbitrary rules created in a stone age society, and written by people who shared these ideals. Hell, the contraception part goes back to when humans had low population levels as a result of the last ice age.
I’m talking about moving on as a society. I’m not forcing my ideas on anyone, I’m speaking my mind about ridiculous crap. I don’t believe any atheist has forced a conversion by threat of death either, so I think maybe I have a ways to go before I become anything like the bigots who wrote the holy books.
While you don’t have to convert a person to atheism (yes you do), you can certainly try to force non-religious values on people via war, economic sanctions and threats. Like how we try to force democracy on everyone. I’ll address that later, though.
I knew charity would come up eventually. This goes back to one of the original points. There are plenty of secular charities..
And there are plenty of religious charities. The point being some people need a reason other than “Africa sucks” to donate money. Get rid of that reason, and now you have half the donations. Hooray.
Religion has changed very little when compared with regular society, and typically it has to be dragged along kicking and screaming into the modern world with every step forward. The evolution you’re looking for isn’t going to happen if religion is left alone.
How’s that work out? The Pope believes in aliens, thinks the 6000 year old thing is bull****, believes science and religion can coexist since the main tenets of his religion don’t contradict science, and may really only give us a greater appreciation of what we discover, etc. Jews are at the forefront of all things liberal. And Muslims…give them a ****ing break. ****, man. The evolution has happened, and continues to happen because its the only way it can survive. It needs to adapt constantly to an everchanging society. That’s why religion continues to exist.
AIDS in Africa, Stem cell research, Texas school board, retards who voted for Bush, homophobia, priest pedophiles, J-Dude
…religion doesn’t promote any of those things, Pain. People do. Stupid, crazy people, who claim to be religious.
Again, I’m not saying every trace of religion should be abolished from history. It’s part of the human condition and it should continue to be part of our history but should never be regarded as anything other than mythology. All I’m saying is that it’s about time we all moved on from our fairy tales and grew up as a species. I think the greek gods and myths are very interesting, but I know they’re myths and nobody is going to get their feelings hurt when I say that.
They don’t exist anymore because people stopped believing in them. Their greatest fault was being powered by belief. Other Gods have learned from their mistakes, and do not require our**** you belief to exist. Do you know why no one gets butt hurt about greek gods? Because people decided to become monotheistic. That was an evolution of religion. We’re slowly getting to the point where people doubt the existence of a human-like God, and are switching over to a THE UNIVERSE IS MIND type mentality. This too is an evolution. It’s going to keep happening until we figure out everything, which will never happen. Sorry.
If I blow myself up I’ll be rewarded by my country with 72 virgins. Doesn’t quite make as much sense.
If you blow yourself up for your country, or simply murder someone from another country and eat it, your family will get $400,000, a flag and prime real estate at a cemetary. Go go military. That’s secularist capitalism at work.
[/QUOTE]
Attempting to get rid of religion before its ready, to me, is similar to forcing democracy on a country before its ready. Democracies need to form organically, and through the populace. A foreign power saying DO IT LOOK AT US WERE AWESOME! doesn’t really give people the desire to form one. Getting rid of religion would work in much the same way. They’d probably only hole up, and before you know it, the Apocalypse happened and they’re angels sent to Earth to kill us in the night. No one wants that to happen.
Except Japan.
At Synth: You are ****ing crazy. Stop it.
If they can put a Mosque in the new World Trade Center, I want a Baptist Church next to the McDonalds and Burger King on Baghdad Street.
That’s beef, yo.
I concede defeat.
The mosque isn’t going to be in the Freedom tower. It’s going to be like 14 blocks away. Also, I know we won Iraq because our fast food chains opened up shop there. Also, me and Phobius teamed up and phished you a few minutes ago. Our keylogger is on your pc. We’re going to have fun tonight.
@The Forum: I know I come across as a little aggressive sometimes. But its because of **** like what you’re about to read. Yeah, Pain is okay in public. But do you know what I have to deal with on a daily basis? A ****ing bombardment of messages from Pain about how Jesus was a hooker ****er and how nothing he says matters because of this. Frankly, I’m goddamn tired of it.
[QUOTE=Pain]
Pain316: Yo
Zeonix: sup
Pain316: How’s your mom doin?
Zeonix: I don’t know…
Pain316: Oh, that’s weird. Cause I heard Jesus is ****ing her because shes a hooker and Jesus ****s hookers.
Zeonix: goddamnit pain
Zeonix: not this ****ing **** again
Pain316: What ****? I’m just saying. Jesus is railing her the **** out right now. Like Mary Magdalene. His whore wife.
Zeonix: wtf is wrong with you, man? im not even religious.
Pain316: Your mom is now after having been baptized by Jesus’ seed. It’s an s’ because he multiplied like Doc Manhattan and bukkaked her.
Zeonix: i dont even know what bukkakee is
Pain316: Look it up, man. It’s good stuff.
Zeonix: goddamnit pain. this is ridiculous. **** off. im just trying to catch up on some reading.
Pain316: My bad. Alright, I’ll talk to you later.
[/quote]
[SIZE=“7”]5 minutes later[/SIZE]
I had to black out the excessively large member. ****ing stop it Pain. You’re a mod. Act like one.
****.
This thread went downhill on this page REAL fast. Shame too.
You can get away with saying “**** you” to Pain, while Avenger gets banned for 7 days for saying douche. That’s how good a mod Pain is.
The difference is probably that Pain and I are having a mock argument and I asked him if I could write **** You as a response to one of his points. Avenger was a little more serious.
Obviously, I’m not for banning someone for saying someone’s behavior, and not necessarily the person, is that of a douche. But there is a distinction between my post and Avenger’s. You need only to see my mspaint skills to confirm this.
Your MsPaint skills are on par with Maddox. They’re dead serious man, don’t deny it.
[QUOTE=Zeo]
Take Isaac Newton, example. And Professor Oak, of Japan.
[/QUOTE]
Anybody else think Pokemon?
Also I lost track of whether the arguement was real or fake.
It looked real. But now I am more concerned how bat-**** insane Japan is. Professor Oak is really a critical piece of scientific and social ingenuity. Japan’s 10 year olds are taming violent monsters and fighting rocket-themed terrorist while America’s 10 year olds are fawning over Justin Bieber.
Too much unnecessary sarcasm on Avenger and Pain’s comments though. I think we’re all a bit too old for that old fashioned smug, internet snarkiness. There’s crafty sarcasm that helps point out flaws in an argument and then there is sarcasm that makes you look incendiary and obnoxious through exaggerations, inaccurate analogies, and smug rhetorical questions.
Personally I am not a fan of religion, and I wish a lot of things could be done without having to know God want it to be done, like being nice to each other. I consider myself considerate but I do not do it because I think God will reward me, I do it because I enjoy seeing people happy and believe my life is easier when I am rational. I have more of a problem with stupid people than religion. The ‘God Loves Dead Soldiers’, the ‘Our President is a secret Muslim’, the ‘Allah is on our side we can not lose, let me bomb myself in this civilian-packed market’, and the ‘This was our land thousands of years ago, we’re taking it back’ people need to stop. Bill Mahr’s (slanted) documentary ‘Religulous’ is an entire facepalm of what how ignorant people can be fueled by religion, and it’s scary.
If the whole world became agnostic (not atheist because I find that extreme as well) I would not mind. But I would rather eliminate the people who think they are pure Christians on the way to heaven but then consider all races are inferior to the white race, or shoot some kid because he got in an argument with you.
What do you find “extreme” about atheism?
My apologies for not elaborating, but atheism as I understand it means “there is absolutely no higher power”. I find that belief too absolute, just like saying “God exists because the bible says so”. There is no room for the unknown.
We are discovering new things about the human body, Earth, and the universe all the time. The idea of some kind of force, and not necessarily sentient, is not off the table for me because we can not prove it. We can simply say that as of what we know now, which is not everything, there is no larger power. To take purely what we know now is to say we are all chemical accidents and when we die our chemicals are simply not working anymore. Simple enough. But really? The life I live, the cultures, knowledge, and technology we have created are all accidents? It just feels like we are missing pieces of the puzzle. We’ve even established a concept of stuff we can not manipulate (yet?), like dark energy and dark matter, which really are just placeholder words for things we just don’t completely understand yet.
So for me, the “we don’t know yet” idea behind agnostic ideals seem more appropriate than stringent “there is nothing beyond this mortal state” atheist ideals.
For whatever reason, atheists tend to be extremely anti-religious. Not just anti-dogma, but anti-everything remotely related. Dawkins is like this, in my opinion.
To me, atheism is the equal but opposite of religious extremism; the highest point of the pendulum on the left, rather than the right. These seemingly polar opposites are, in fact, the same coin and separated only by mere degrees. The trick isn’t to exist on either end of the spectrum, but somewhere in between.
Also, as I’ve stated over the years, I hate when people think only in absolutes which, as Chakra pointed out, most Atheists seem to sway towards. If we don’t have enough information to prove or disprove something, then you don’t know. You can make as many guesses as you’d like, but you don’t truly know.
This is why Atheism is the most retarded religion of all time.
Atheists will argue that theirs isn’t a belief system, but in terms of an overarching theme, they believe there is no supreme deity. They are united in this belief.
In the same way, people who like toast are united by the fact that they all like toast. I suppose they’re religious too, judging by your standard of belief.
Edit:
Read up on Ninian Smart’s 7 dimensions.