Why this melee won't work

OK, I was told that the melee system in a style of you can punch where ever you want, sort of like a free melee, if you would like an example: The same as The specialists mod or in GTA(I dont know about GTA4) you can punch the air as well. I'm asking this for the reason that if the advanced melee system will be made of "you have to get close in order to start attacking" it will work very bad.

Now I heard people saying, man it won't work blah blah, so all of you who are aware of it tell me why, maybe we can solve it instead of saying "man this won't work."

In the lags problem I don't think it really matters, cause no one plays above 150 ping and even now it is impossible to play above it, it will work good with 150 ping.

And what so sucked in the melee of alpha?

What sucked about Alpha 2.0's melee?

Everything.

deco said:

And what so sucked in the melee of alpha?

Click to expand...

The fact that you could not hit a thing. There are 4 factors that you have to take into considerration with ESF.

1.) Free movement. Flight to be exact moving in a 3D space makes real time melee extremely hard to hit a thing cause the target can move in more directions than 2.

2.) Half Life. Lets face it. Even with standerd gameplay you can hardly hit a thing unless its standing still with the crowbar. Long storry short. The engine is ****ty that would highly alloow real time melee if you had a stun effect and we all know how much that sucks.

3.) Model size. Compared to regular Half Life with its allready hard to hit stuff with melee attacks unless its not moving you have to add the fact that the targets in ESF are 4 times smaller than in half life making it 4 times harder to hit.

4.) The speed in ESF. You have to calculate the speed and port it over to ESF measures from Half Life. Lets say you move with the speed of 20 units per second in half life. In ESF that makes it 80 units per second. What is a slow speed in half life is really fast in ESF. Even with 1.2 speeds you are still going way faster than sprinting with Gordon in HL. Simply because the speed transition is equal to the model scaling. Smaller models = more speed

Those are the 4 main principles (with ping not even listed) as to why a real time melee wouldnt work. Simply having a system of "smash the buttons and hope you hit him before he hits you" is not good for gameplay and not good for your mouse. Not to mention it makes the game look very weird animation wise.

Now you take principle number 4 and apply ping to it. Remember ESFs model size makes people a lot faster than in half life. So the ti9me you have to react is allso slower. ESFs 100 ping would be something similar to Half Lifes 400 ping simply because the speed is that much higher. Ever try to hit someone in half life with a crowbar and a ping of 400?

I hope you understand why i said real time melee is impossible for ESF without breaking gameplay.


But thats where the team made simple melee. All you need to do is be close and have to be holding a single mouse button. How you get close is your choice, be it swoop, teleport or normall flying. Call it a proximity triggered crowbar. Having such a system allows the team to bypass practically all of the principles where real time melee (what you suggested) fails. Face it simple melee can be used good up to 120 ping. Meaning round 480 standard HL ping counting the speed alone.

While its true that KI management is more ping dependant than melee since it actually needs to be done faster and timed better than simple melee.

As said your idea would not work in ESF unless you added a stun time, but then youd play "Smash the buttons and hope to hit him before he hits you" folowed by "Oh **** i got stunned by a lucky shot" Youd literaly loose all skill that exists in the game.

Feel free to coment on my long post of facts.

Yep the movement mechanics, like Grega said, out-do the melee ones. Probably better to work with it instead of against it, by making the movement more of a factor.

Well I actually thought of blending it with stamina, making it more battle-wise.

And the fact you can move everywhere just makes it more dynamic, he can moves and you can as well, predicting his movement and moving to the right place is a skill.

I can definitely imagine myself playing it with 140 ping.

And my concept is you can counter by simply detecting when his gonna hit then its like kung fu divert and then you press punch to get him, he can divert you to leaving it dynamic, a bit messy, but fun and skillful.

As well as 3 body zones: Up, Mid, Low while it is more than damage it is more of the way if you attack the low section in the right time(like a kick to the knee joint) in the air the other character gets unbalanced leaving him only being able to divert attacks with his hands, skillful again. Attack to the head in the right time can cause a stun, but it will be very hard to inflict one because they always move. mid section is the basic part to hit with pure damage but you need to move correctly in order to hit.

I think it should go for a try, I didn't play alpha but I think it lacked the speed, and only 1 punch and 1 kick animations leaving it not very eye attracting.

It is more than just punches and kicks, you need to fight correctly, its all in the way of how you implement it. It is like an advanced version of the melee in lemming ball z(something like that name)

And melee in LBZ is a smashfeast.

If you want to try then get a friendand do this. Dont hole the simple melee button. But press it at the right time to attack. Meaning time it right but dont hold it. Ofcourse the simple melee reach length is about the height of the character to actually make a hit possible. See how far that gets you. After that add swoop and teleport to it. And you have your system.

Allso calculate in taht in ESF you are not playing 1 VS 1 you are playing all VS all. Allso notethat there is no aimbot help like with LBZ. Your system has skill in it only on paper. Not in the actuall game where youd be just smashing the buttons hoping to hit the other guy before he hits you.

I didn't say getting the aspect of LMZ melee, but the speed of it, I gave ways to make it skill wise instead of smash.

Yes all vs all that is true, but the non-noobs server will leave you with your fight, even now with basic melee it is the same. Sometimes you can be dead from people getting back attacks at you.

Even without an aimbot it is possible.

You guys should try it, really, I don't think calling it on paper without trying is very much worthy. Just make only the code for the melee, without animations, or use basic melee animations(will be weird lol) and try it.

Fince then play something similar.

It doesnt have a stamina effect and doesnt have the stun or 3 areas of effect thing. But its real time melee like you are suggesting.

http://esf-world.gamers-desire.de/file/484/ESF_Alpha_2.0_(Steam_compatible).html

When you downloaded that and installed it grab me on MSN. Ill be your partner.

My MSN is in my profile.

First of all, as I understand it, no Half Life engine ever has had the capability of bringing any character NOT ragdollized or animated outside of a permanently upright orientation. So even if you COULD somehow make certain hits to certain body parts have different results (which is doubtful because of how the hitbox works) you still face the matter that there's no way in Hell you're going to be able to AIM for another player's knees. Any hit you make in ESF is going to be purely a strike at them. There's no time, and characters are too small and move too fast to specifically target a body part.

Aside from that, most of this sounds nightmarish to code. I don't know much about code whatsoever, but I know enough to understand that things like this delve even into the very infrastructure of the game engine. Yeah, ESF is a total conversion, true, but let's not go overboard with that statement.

may I grab you in steam instead?

J-Dude said:

First of all, as I understand it, no Half Life engine ever has had the capability of bringing any character NOT ragdollized or animated outside of a permanently upright orientation. So even if you COULD somehow make certain hits to certain body parts have different results (which is doubtful because of how the hitbox works) you still face the matter that there's no way in Hell you're going to be able to AIM for another player's knees. Any hit you make in ESF is going to be purely a strike at them. There's no time, and characters are too small and move too fast to specifically target a body part.

Aside from that, most of this sounds nightmarish to code. I don't know much about code whatsoever, but I know enough to understand that things like this delve even into the very infrastructure of the game engine. Yeah, ESF is a total conversion, true, but let's not go overboard with that statement.

Click to expand...

Well im not too sure about the body parts part, since in counter strike you can hit the arm, head, chest, leg and it will have different damage meaning the engine can recognize body parts